splitting satellite lead

T

timmcleod

Audiophyte
any reason I can't use a splitter on a satellite feed line to hookup a dvr dual tuner unit ? unit instructions say you must hookup BOTH satellite feeds.
thanks
tim
 
Duffinator

Duffinator

Audioholic Field Marshall
Your instructions are correct. You must hook up both leads and connect each one to your dual tuner DVR. I'm not an engineer but it has to do with the signals canceling of interferring with each other and then you will get no signal. There is 18 and 22 volts of current being send from your tuner to the LNB so it's not like an antenna or cable feed with no current. Bottom line is if you want to play (with dual tuners that is) you have to pay. :eek:
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
My understanding, though probably inaccurate since I don't fully get it yet, is that the LNBs on a DSS dish actually pick up information that is travelling both horizontally and vertically. With a dual LNB dish, and two DSS set top boxes, you can assign one LNB to each box and that box can control whether the LNB is picking up the horizontal broadcast or the vertical waves. The LNB does not have the ability to pick both up at once.

As soon as you add a 3rd set top box you must have a splitter/combiner where the feeds come into the house that allows for the both the horizontal and vertical feeds to be sent over a single cable. Spaun makes some DSS amplifiers that allow you to plug the two (or more) LNBs directly into a box, and then distribute it to multiple locations and set top boxes.

I am not 100% certain of how it all ties together and I am figure my explanation is a little off, but hopefully it still makes some sense.
 
Duffinator

Duffinator

Audioholic Field Marshall
BMXTRIX said:
As soon as you add a 3rd set top box you must have a splitter/combiner where the feeds come into the house that allows for the both the horizontal and vertical feeds to be sent over a single cable. Spaun makes some DSS amplifiers that allow you to plug the two (or more) LNBs directly into a box, and then distribute it to multiple locations and set top boxes.
I don't think either of us are exactly correct on this but Tim should get the idea. But it's not a splitter, it's a multiswitch and is more complicated than a signal splitter. Spaun makes some nice multiswitches but they are VERY expensive and overkill for most situations. Typical German over-engineering. :) But then again my ChannelVision multiswitch died so maybe I need that over-engineering. :eek:
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Yes, a multi-switch, couldn't think of the name. I have a Channel Vision catalog right in front of me and they actually look like they are working with Spaun since the Spaun units are in the Channel Vision catalog. www.channelvision.com

I had asked a friend about the need for multiswitches and how sat dishes worked years ago and am pretty sure that I am correct for why the multiswitch is needed... so that the dual LNB modules can pick up both horizontally and vertically transmitted broadcasts and send them simutaneously to the multi-switch. Then the multi-switch manages which signal is sent down a cable to a DSS receiver. Basically, the DSS receiver says "I need this channel which is on a horizontally broadcast frequency" - The mulit-switch recognizes the request, and passes on data from the correct LNB.

Hang on, let me google it.... (2 minutes later)....

This is the site: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55509

and this is a great excerpt, long but great info:

1. What is an LNB? LNB stands for "Low Noise Block Converter" (thanks toolbox ). It is the part of your Satellite dish that hangs off of the arm and looks like a flashlight. It is what captures the digital signal from the satellite.

2. How does an LNB work? There are 32 transponders on the 101 degree satellite (main satellite) that send channels. They are numbered 1-32. Each transponder sends a group of channels. An LNB on a satellite dish can look at either odd or even transponders at any given time. It cannot see both at the same time. If you change the channel to one that is on an odd transponder, then the LNB switches to look at the odd...if you change to a channel on an even transponder, then the LNB switches to look at the even.

3. How does the LNB know which side (even or odd transponders) to look at? This is done by voltage changes that your DirectTV receiver sends.

4. What is a Dual LNB? A Dual LNB is just two LNB's...each connection can operate independently of each other so you can have two receivers each looking at different stations on different transponders. They both look at the same satellite (101 Degree satellite). A single LNB only has one coax connection and cannot be used with more than 1 DirectTV receiver.

5. What is the difference between the "Round" 18" dishes and the "Elliptical" 18"x24" dishes? The 18" dish had a Dual LNB that looks at one satellite. The satellite is positioned at 101 degrees and sends all the main programming that is offered in the DirectTV packages. The 18x24" dish has TWO Dual LNBs and is set up to see two satellites...the 101 degree and the 119. The 119 degree satellite sends additional programming such as the NASA channel, ParaTodos Spanish programming, other foreign language programming and HDTV channels. You could also use two Round 18" dishes, one pointed at the 101 degree satellite and the other pointed at the 119 satellite to do the same as the Elliptical dish. You would connect the four cables from the two dishes to a multiswitch explained below.

6. Can I use a splitter to add more receivers or add dual Tuners to my DirectTiVo? NO....this is where multiswitches come into play. You cannot use regular splitters. From the explaination of LNBs above, you should understand that if I split an LNB with a regular splitter, then I will have two receivers using the same LNB and fighting over looking at odd or even transponders. One or both receivers will only be able to see half of the channels.

7. What is a multiswitch? A multiswitch takes the input from both of the LNB's (both cables from a dual LNB dish HAVE to be connected to the multiswitch)...it then locks one of the LNB's to always look at the even transponders and the other LNB to always look at the odd transponders. This is why a multiswitch only works with Dual LNBs and not single LNB's. The switch then has multiple outputs to receivers (4,8,etc). When you connect the receiver to the multiswitch, the switch determines which of the two LNB's the receiver needs to look at depending if it needs to view odd or even transponders. When you change the channel, the switch then swaps your connection to the other LNB when needed. With a multiswitch, the LNB's never change which side they are looking at.

8. What about multiswitches with Elliptical dishes? If you have the oval dish with two "dual LNBs" (4 cables), each of the Dual LNB's look at different satellites (101 degree and 119 degree satellites). A multiswitch is needed to see the second satellite. A multiswitch comes with the dish and is usually have 4 outputs. Multiswitches for elliptical dishes need to have 4 inputs so it can switch between the 4 LNBs rather than the 2 in the explaination in #7 above.

9. If my receiver sends voltage changes to switch between odd and even transponders on the 101 satellite, how does it tell the multiswitch that it wants to see the 119 satellite? The receiver sends a 22khz tone over the cable along with the voltage change so it tells the multiswitch that it wants either odd or even transponders by the voltage and that it wants the 119 by sending the tone.

10. What is the 2x4, 2x8, 3x4, 3x8, 4x4, 4x8, 5x4 & 5x8 designations mean when referring to a multiswitch? The first number in the number of inputs from the dish (or antenna) the switch has. The second number is the number of outputs the switch has.

A 5x8 multiswitch would handle 4 DTV inputs (Two Dual LNBs looking at the two satellites) and a Cable TV or antenna input if you wanted. It would have 8 outputs that could go to 8 DirectTV receivers, 4 Dual Tuner DirectTivos or any combo in between.
 
D

DustinCooke

Audiophyte
I don't think they are exactly correct on this but Tim should get the idea. :)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I don't think they are exactly correct on this but Tim should get the idea. :)
That is pretty much it, but there are more satellites now. This has increased the number of LNBs and complexity. Tivo do not make a unit compatible with Direct TVs current HD set up.

The gist is correct. However the multiswitch and LNB units need powering. Form the HD DVRs there are two cables, as you can record two programs simultaneously. There is 13 volts on one cable and 18 volts on the other. It does not matter which way round the cables are connected, the mutiswitch sorts it out. As you say signals are sent up the cables to change satellites.
Of course the digital signals are sent back down the cables. In engineering terms this is a phantom powered system, just like a studio condenser microphone.

Now a splitter is a transformer. Transformers will not pass DC. That is why you can not split a satellite cable signal, because they can not pass the DC powering voltages for the multiswitch and LNBs.

It is not nearly as handy as cable, nor as reliable. At least the Direct TV system is very fragile, both the DVRs and the electronics in the multiswitch and LNBs. I have had to put fast acting on line UPS system on all my HD DVRs. I have had no trouble since.

I have to use satellite at Benedict, but in our town home in Eagan I have selected cable. I personally would not use a satellite system unless I had to.

In snow country it is an added inconvenience. Snow storms cause drop outs and the dish fills with packed snow and ice, especially this last big oval dish for their latest system. I then have to find someone to get on a treacherous slippery roof to clear it.

We have had a lot of heavy rain since winter and they cause drop outs too.

The next thing is that the dish for the new system is not fit to put on the roof as it comes. As soon as I saw mine, I sent the tech away and told him to come back the next day. I designed and built the stays and mountings properly, and had them painted by the next day. Fortunately I have a metal and welding shop here on Benedict Lake.

It had a real test on June 11. We had 60 to 80 mile an hour winds for 18 hours. There were lots of trees down and boats and docks damaged. My dish survived the storm.

This system is better than their last HD system. Those LNBs kept filling up with water!

Bottom line is that I don't recommend satellite rigs unless it your only option.
 

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