To Bi-Wire or Not

[mtrycrafts]

TLS Guy- you mean in your humble opinion, or please refute my Wadia, Audio Research Ref, dCS, etc. argument.

Refute? Refute what? You made claims, unsupported claims, nothing else. Perhaps when you can demonstrate and support your claims, then, there might be counter efforts. Your claim, your burden of proof. That is how that game is played

 

[russ_l]

Overlord

Mytrycrafts- since you do not appear to be technically astute, I'll try to elaborate further. Take a simple first order crossover network; an inductor in series with the mid/wooder, a capacitor in series with the tweeter.

At low frequencies, OK not DC, the inductor appears as a low impedance, and the low frequencies are sent to the mid/woofer. The capacitor appears as a very high impedance preventing the lows from going to the tweeter.

The opposite is true at high frequencies. The capaicitor appears as a low impedance allowing the high frequencies to pass to the tweeter. But the inductor now appears as a high impedance preventing the high frequencies from passing to the woofer.

The low frequency signal is kept separate from the high frequecy by separing the two sections of the crossover network (biwiring). If the two wires have enough phyiscal separation, the magnetic influence of the lower frequencies will have little or no effect on the magnetic field of the high frequencies, thus eliminating intermodulation distortion. Or is anyone going to dispute that current flowing in a conductor produces a magnetic field?

In fact all of the above is basic crossover theory, Electrical Engineering 101. Further, whether you know it or not, you use this principle every time you set the LP crossovers in your receiver or prepro.

And my snotty lead-in (yes I'm guilty) has to do with the same old biwire argurment BS. If you can't hear it it can not be. We'll I'm still waiting for one single response to my CD player analogy. If you have a low/ midfi system and you substitute a Wadia for a $99 Sony, you won't hear a bit difference becasue the system is not up to the Wadia. Same argument for biwiring. And, you don't need a double blind test for that.

 

[zhimbo]

We'll I'm still waiting for one single response to my CD player analogy.

If you have crappy speakers, you won't hear a difference with bi-wiring - well, everyone agrees with that. No one disagrees.

But that's trivial. Who cares? Why do you think that needs a response?

The truth is: you also won't hear a difference with very good speakers - unless you're deluding yourself with the prior knowledge of what you're listening to.

Maybe I'm wrong - and when I see the proper blind testing evidence, I'll happily say so.

 

[TLS Guy]

TLS Guy- you mean in your humble opinion, or please refute my Wadia, Audio Research Ref, dCS, etc. argument.

Bi-wiring is just a long jumper cable.

There is one signal at the speaker terminals of the amp. The connection form those terminals to the output devices is not bi-wired.

If you Bi-wire both wires from the amp carry an identical voltage signal, they have to.

Most speakers are two or two and a half way with crossovers in the 2 o 3 KHz range.

The power delivered to the High pass filter is minute, so the lowered resistance resulting from the two cables is insignificant.

All speakers with passive crossovers have one to four inductors in series with the woofer voice coils. For most speakers it will be two to four.

The combined DC resistance of these coils is always significant and if the speaker wires are sensible gauged the DC resistance of the cables, will be significantly less than the combined DC resistance of the low pass inductors.

The inductance of the cables is insignificant and will not cause any measurable interaction with crossover or drivers. The capacitance of any cables I'm aware of can only cause a first order HF loss well above the audio range. If it was an issue, then bi-wiring would make it worse.

There is no plausible explanation in the realm of physics for ANY benefit from bi-wiring.

It is just another example of how poor basic education leads people to believe just about anything and that's the issue.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

If you already have the extra wire just sitting around, biwiring won't hurt anything. That is about all that can be said for it.

 

[fmw]

Russ, the problem is that causing a measurable electrical change in the circuit and causing an audible one are sometimes two different things. We can measure 1/100 of a percent of harmonic distortion but we can't hear it.

Biwiring has been put through bias controlled listening tests many, many times by many, many people including me. Not once has an audible effect ever been been found. The audible effects to which you refer are caused by bias and perception, not by sound and certainly not by "golden ears."

I'm not providing an opinion either. I'm providing test results. If you have some scientifically valid, bias controlled test results that show an audible change from biwiring then you should publish it. The scientific community would be interested (and astounded.)

 

[russ_l]

Poor Education

Bi-wiring is just a long jumper cable.

It is just another example of how poor basic education leads people to believe just about anything and that's the issue.

Poor education. OK, well, you forced me into it. I have a BSEE and MSEE from Brooklyn Polytechnic University. I’ve had an extremely successful engineering career, still going strong after 45 years.

I’ll take everyone through this one more time. Biwiring has nothing to do with resistance of the cable or the two cables. It has to do with the current flowing in each of the two cables and the physical separation of the cables.

The two cables in a biwire setup have different currents flowing in them. The current flowing in each cable is a function of what is hanging on the end of the cable. In my basic first order example above, the inductor in series with the woofer appears as a low impedance to the very low frequencies allowing current to pass; but it appears as a high impedance to high frequencies preventing the flow of high frequency current.

The capacitor in series with the tweeter does just the opposite. The capacitor appears as a low impedance to the high frequencies allowing the high frequencies to pass; but it appears as a high impedance to the low frequencies preventing them from passing and destroying the tweeter.

Yes there is some overlap of frequencies in the two cables; the overlap being dependent on the order of the filter network (first order, second order, third order, etc). Lots of overlap in a first order network; virtually no overlap in a fourth order network.

OK, now that we have established that the signal in each of the two biwire cables is completely different we go back to the basic premise that a current flowing in a conductor produces a magnetic field. THIS IS WHAT BIWIRING IS ALL ABOUT.

Without biwiring, the stronger magnetic field of the bass frequencies modulates the lesser magnetic field of the treble frequencies thus causing audible (IN SOME CASES as I mentioned in my first post) intermodulation distortion. But, when biwiring, the two cables separate the current containing the bass frequencies from current containing the treble frequencies. The magnetic fields generated in the two cables can not interact if the two cables have enough physical separation, several inches or more, the more the better.

OK now, everyone study up. Blue book quiz at 10 AM tomorrow.

 

[TLS Guy]

Poor education. OK, well, you forced me into it. I have a BSEE and MSEE from Brooklyn Polytechnic University. I’ve had an extremely successful engineering career, still going strong after 45 years.

I’ll take everyone through this one more time. Biwiring has nothing to do with resistance of the cable or the two cables. It has to do with the current flowing in each of the two cables and the physical separation of the cables.

The two cables in a biwire setup have different currents flowing in them. The current flowing in each cable is a function of what is hanging on the end of the cable. In my basic first order example above, the inductor in series with the woofer appears as a low impedance to the very low frequencies allowing current to pass; but it appears as a high impedance to high frequencies preventing the flow of high frequency current.

The capacitor in series with the tweeter does just the opposite. The capacitor appears as a low impedance to the high frequencies allowing the high frequencies to pass; but it appears as a high impedance to the low frequencies preventing them from passing and destroying the tweeter.

Yes there is some overlap of frequencies in the two cables; the overlap being dependent on the order of the filter network (first order, second order, third order, etc). Lots of overlap in a first order network; virtually no overlap in a fourth order network.

OK, now that we have established that the signal in each of the two biwire cables is completely different we go back to the basic premise that a current flowing in a conductor produces a magnetic field. THIS IS WHAT BIWIRING IS ALL ABOUT.

Without biwiring, the stronger magnetic field of the bass frequencies modulates the lesser magnetic field of the treble frequencies thus causing audible (IN SOME CASES as I mentioned in my first post) intermodulation distortion. But, when biwiring, the two cables separate the current containing the bass frequencies from current containing the treble frequencies. The magnetic fields generated in the two cables can not interact if the two cables have enough physical separation, several inches or more, the more the better.

OK now, everyone study up. Blue book quiz at 10 AM tomorrow.

Absolute nonsense. Your whole argument flies in the face for Fournier analysis. If you combine the two wires again, i.e. put back the jumper the signal will look and be identical. You can't produce inter modulation distortion in a wire. In other words it would look the same on the scope as if you summed the signals through a very high resistance circuit and looked at them Bi-wired or not. It does too. If you can't see a difference on the scope you certainly won't hear it.

The voltage signal in the two wires is the same. Only the current signal is different. However if you combine the signals again it will be identical the the mathematical sum of the two.

In fact if you were to leave the jumpers intact that would have a small insignificant benefit, assuming the cables were correctly gauged in the first place. The reason is that the high currents are to the woofers and you would have halved the resistance of the cables. Bi-wiring does not even get that much for you.

 

[russ_l]

Ohms Law

Absolute nonsense. Your whole argument flies in the face for Fournier analysis.

TLS- we do not need Fournier analysis, Laplace transforms, triple surface integrals, or even the Schrodinger wave equations as modified by Einstein’s Theory of Relativity; we just need good old Mr. Ohms Law to understand what is happening. I equals E/Z. But thank you for agreeing that the two cables in a biwire setup carry different currents. And yes, the voltage is the same, but only at the source, the amplifier terminals.

So now that we agree on current and voltage, the only argument left is whether or not intermodulation distortion can take place in a cable (and is it audible). Here I can only postulate, as I am an engineer not a physicist. In my opinion it can and other very knowledgeable people agree with me. And I’m sure there are those who would not agree.

Maybe at this point we need Ron Bauman (Omega Micro cables), George Cardas or some other manufacturer of cables with diverse geometries to jump in. As far as audibility goes, we can argue that till the cows come home (or until the wives tell us to turn it down). And we can let the two sides of the blind testing argument do the same.

For me, I’m off now to investigating AcuDefTechGuy’s approach to multichannel; it’s a very interesting concept.

 

[mtrycrafts]

The low frequency signal is kept separate from the high frequecy by separing the two sections of the crossover network (biwiring). If the two wires have enough phyiscal separation, the magnetic influence of the lower frequencies will have little or no effect on the magnetic field of the high frequencies, thus eliminating intermodulation distortion. Or is anyone going to dispute that current flowing in a conductor produces a magnetic field?

.

Just demonstrate that there is an IM caused by the lows frequency to the high frequency. What about the IM then between the other frequencies in the same cables when you biwire? That would not count, right? IF you have IM, you cannot escape it no matter what.
As to the voltage, you telling us that you don't have the hi frequency voltage at the low frequency crossover, or the low frequency voltage at the high frequency cross over network? Why not?
And, you would get low frequency current in the hi network per the roll of order; yes, not much bit it is there, isn't it.

 

[zhimbo]

As far as audibility goes, we can argue that till the cows come home

Here's what I don't understand about discussions like this: The idea that determining if something is audible is somehow complicated. It isn't. It's easy. Just do everything you normally do to listen for differences - just don't let yourself know the status of the wires. If you can reliably hear differences, the differences are audible. If you can't, there's no reason to think the differences are audible.

That's it.

I've never heard of any blind testing producing positive results for biwiring, and have heard of quite a few negative results.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Without biwiring, the stronger magnetic field of the bass frequencies modulates the lesser magnetic field of the treble frequencies thus causing audible (IN SOME CASES as I mentioned in my first post) intermodulation distortion. .

It would be interesting if you could demonstrate this audible IM, under controlled conditions. Good luck.

 

[fmw]

Here's what I don't understand about discussions like this: The idea that determining if something is audible is somehow complicated. It isn't. It's easy. Just do everything you normally do to listen for differences - just don't let yourself know the status of the wires. If you can reliably hear differences, the differences are audible. If you can't, there's no reason to think the differences are audible.

That's it.

I've never heard of any blind testing producing positive results for biwiring, and have heard of quite a few negative results.

It isn't quite that simple. In order to keep the listener from knowing which product is being heard at the moment requires takes two people at a minimum. There needs to be enough random iterations to develop a valid statistic. There are issues of level matching, etc. You can read about this sort of thing with a simple internet search.

 

[TLS Guy]

TLS- we do not need Fournier analysis, Laplace transforms, triple surface integrals, or even the Schrodinger wave equations as modified by Einstein’s Theory of Relativity; we just need good old Mr. Ohms Law to understand what is happening. I equals E/Z. But thank you for agreeing that the two cables in a biwire setup carry different currents. And yes, the voltage is the same, but only at the source, the amplifier terminals.

So now that we agree on current and voltage, the only argument left is whether or not intermodulation distortion can take place in a cable (and is it audible). Here I can only postulate, as I am an engineer not a physicist. In my opinion it can and other very knowledgeable people agree with me. And I’m sure there are those who would not agree.

Maybe at this point we need Ron Bauman (Omega Micro cables), George Cardas or some other manufacturer of cables with diverse geometries to jump in. As far as audibility goes, we can argue that till the cows come home (or until the wives tell us to turn it down). And we can let the two sides of the blind testing argument do the same.

For me, I’m off now to investigating AcuDefTechGuy’s approach to multichannel; it’s a very interesting concept.

The onus is on you to show that a speaker wire can produce significant inter modulation distortion.

The voltage will not be significantly different at either end of either cable, unless the resistance of the of the cables is a significant fraction of the resistance of the chokes plus Rz. If the cables are properly sized with sufficiently low resistance, then there can be no issue. So we get back the fact that the signifcant specification of speaker wire is its resistance, and I think most on these forums realize that.

I'm not going to get into the loony crowd like Cardas. These individuals are either con artists, have a DSM diagnosis or both.

 

[Midcow2]

Hey Russ interesting discussion, but ..

Poor education. OK, well, you forced me into it. I have a BSEE and MSEE from Brooklyn Polytechnic University. I’ve had an extremely successful engineering career, still going strong after 45 years.

I’ll take everyone through this one more time. Biwiring has nothing to do with resistance of the cable or the two cables. It has to do with the current flowing in each of the two cables and the physical separation of the cables.

The two cables in a biwire setup have different currents flowing in them. The current flowing in each cable is a function of what is hanging on the end of the cable. In my basic first order example above, the inductor in series with the woofer appears as a low impedance to the very low frequencies allowing current to pass; but it appears as a high impedance to high frequencies preventing the flow of high frequency current.

The capacitor in series with the tweeter does just the opposite. The capacitor appears as a low impedance to the high frequencies allowing the high frequencies to pass; but it appears as a high impedance to the low frequencies preventing them from passing and destroying the tweeter.

Yes there is some overlap of frequencies in the two cables; the overlap being dependent on the order of the filter network (first order, second order, third order, etc). Lots of overlap in a first order network; virtually no overlap in a fourth order network.

OK, now that we have established that the signal in each of the two biwire cables is completely different we go back to the basic premise that a current flowing in a conductor produces a magnetic field. THIS IS WHAT BIWIRING IS ALL ABOUT.

Without biwiring, the stronger magnetic field of the bass frequencies modulates the lesser magnetic field of the treble frequencies thus causing audible (IN SOME CASES as I mentioned in my first post) intermodulation distortion. But, when biwiring, the two cables separate the current containing the bass frequencies from current containing the treble frequencies. The magnetic fields generated in the two cables can not interact if the two cables have enough physical separation, several inches or more, the more the better.

OK now, everyone study up. Blue book quiz at 10 AM tomorrow.

What do you really do? So a lot of you input does imply that you have some pretty solid electrical engineering knowledge. The question is in metrics and actual audio deviations. Let's for the sake of argument, say that the magnetice resonance of the different frequencies causing either the leading capacitive or lagging inductive component of the impedence ofeach speaker circuit and that by b-wiring as you suggest you can significantly attenuate the intermodular distortion by separating the wires. The question is twofold,
(1) what level of intemodulation is detectable by the human ear and under what conditions and (2) what is the formula for distance of separation compared to intermodulation. Or is this theoretical and not humanly audiable?

I will ask you again what do you do from an audiophile perspective? You imply you have $4,000 per pair fronts and you have thrown out some very high end audiophile equipment names and people. Let's see, you are an audiophile design engineer for your own speaker company?

 

[bandphan]

Well Russ, in your short history with AH the majority of your posts have been on the benefits of bi-wiring and for the most part the community has not seen any benifit from the debate, sooo let it die. In most cases(99.9) subjects will not gain any audiable preformance, thats when we should put this to bed.

 

[zhimbo]

It isn't quite that simple. In order to keep the listener from knowing which product is being heard at the moment requires takes two people at a minimum. There needs to be enough random iterations to develop a valid statistic. There are issues of level matching, etc. You can read about this sort of thing with a simple internet search.

Even a sub-optimal session has been sufficient to convince people on speaker wire issues. Speaker wire is probably one of the easiest things to test, too - level matching isn't even an issue, assuming realistic gauge.

Things get trickier with items that are hard to conceal, and do require level-matching, etc.

It's true that you need a sufficient number of trials, but that isn't really a complication, especially on a simple A vs. B comparison.

 

[PENG]

sooo let it die. In most cases(99.9) subjects will not gain any audiable preformance, thats when we should put this to bed.

Unless I am missing something, it seems to me this thread was let die 5 years ago, until someone (not Russ) resurrected it on July 20.

 

[bandphan]

Unless I am missing something, it seems to me this thread was let die 5 years ago, until someone (not Russ) resurrected it on July 20.

just everybody loves raymond, cause its on

 

[PENG]

Poor education. OK, well, you forced me into it. I have a BSEE and MSEE from Brooklyn Polytechnic University. I’ve had an extremely successful engineering career, still going strong after 45 years.

I’ll take everyone through this one more time. Biwiring has nothing to do with resistance of the cable or the two cables. It has to do with the current flowing in each of the two cables and the physical separation of the cables.

The two cables in a biwire setup have different currents flowing in them. The current flowing in each cable is a function of what is hanging on the end of the cable. In my basic first order example above, the inductor in series with the woofer appears as a low impedance to the very low frequencies allowing current to pass; but it appears as a high impedance to high frequencies preventing the flow of high frequency current.

The capacitor in series with the tweeter does just the opposite. The capacitor appears as a low impedance to the high frequencies allowing the high frequencies to pass; but it appears as a high impedance to the low frequencies preventing them from passing and destroying the tweeter.

Yes there is some overlap of frequencies in the two cables; the overlap being dependent on the order of the filter network (first order, second order, third order, etc). Lots of overlap in a first order network; virtually no overlap in a fourth order network.

OK, now that we have established that the signal in each of the two biwire cables is completely different we go back to the basic premise that a current flowing in a conductor produces a magnetic field. THIS IS WHAT BIWIRING IS ALL ABOUT.

Without biwiring, the stronger magnetic field of the bass frequencies modulates the lesser magnetic field of the treble frequencies thus causing audible (IN SOME CASES as I mentioned in my first post) intermodulation distortion. But, when biwiring, the two cables separate the current containing the bass frequencies from current containing the treble frequencies. The magnetic fields generated in the two cables can not interact if the two cables have enough physical separation, several inches or more, the more the better.

OK now, everyone study up. Blue book quiz at 10 AM tomorrow.

A few of us beat that horse to death before and that may be why at least some of the members here no longer argue with you on the theory side. People did argue with me and others (including Jneutron who they typically trust) way back. You can do a search if you are interested. Back then we only argued about the theory, not whether the effect was audible or not. I joined the argument at the time mainly because I didn't want people to hear one side of the story told by those who really did not have a basic understanding of EE theory.

Look at what Renko (who resurrected this 5 year old thread) said as an example:

"In response to those who think bi-wiring has any benefits, I am guessing that there must be new laws of physics of which the general world is not aware. According to the laws of physics, one or 100 speaker wires going to the same speaker from the same amplifier will deliver the same signal and the same level of signal power. Anyone can discover this for himself or herself if he/she does a simple search in Google. Or better yet, ask an engineer. Do not ask self-proclaimed experts on the net who sit at a computer and make claims based upon what they have heard or think they know."

He himself might have been influenced by exactly what he called "self-proclaimed experts....." and therefore made such statements about "................new physics......the general world is not aware.....................".

Yet he got thanked by one of my respected member. Renko seemed to suggest that we should ask an engineer. Well we do have engineers on this forum who responded then, and now, and see what happened. Actually not too bad because again, this time people focussed on the whether the effect is audible only, instead of the "electrical difference".

Russ, I know you understand the theories involved and I don't see anything wrong in what you have stated so far. That being said, you should note that people are not disputing the electrical difference, but they are saying that the difference is insignificant; and in any case does not result in anything audible to human. I hope this make you feel better.