First stage--decide on driver....need feedback.

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

After owning a few different commercial HT subs I have decided to try my hand at my first HT DIY sub.(I made two car audio enclosures for JL subs, but that was back in my high school days now over a decade ago)
I have gotten some grasp on what type of sound and how loud and how low I want/need to go.
I will get into size of room, layout of room, amp choices and enclosures as I progress. I am here to get first things first done.

So I come to the DIY experts to ask my first stage question....which subs in your experience have a sound 'quality' of top level that makes music so rich:
A. Sized 12"-15" only
B. Size of enclosure would ideally be < 4.5cu. ft.
C. Please list if the driver(s) you reccomend are ideal for ported or sealed enclosures as I am building my box based on my driver.
D. If you could list a ballpark expect to see price for shopping but without names I would appreciate that as well.
My budget is not stuck in stone but I'd like to stay below $400 for driver, amp, connections and eq 'if needed'.
I will be building the enclosure and this price range allows me $100 for the box and finish.
If there are options that would fill my needs for less than $400 for driver and amp that's fine.

For reference, I listen to predominantly motown and classic rock. I like as clean a sound as possible and although I enjoy the internal rumble from output below say 18/20Hz(in movies) that is not as of as much importance as SQ. Then output comes third as anything I build will be capable of goinbg louder than I ever listen to even when maxing out in movie mode.(my eDA5-350 was hardly ever pushed really hard, but I wouldn't mind having as much or more output if wanted)

 

[WmAx]

The Infinity Kappa Perfect 12VQ driver is a textbook linear driver. It will produce inaudible SPL within it's very conservatively rated linear x-max rating of one way 14mm. You can in fact, use this about 50 percent greater excursion, but it starts to become non-linear beyond it's rated linear range.

The VQ has a variable motor and it will work ideally in ANY bass alignment that you so choose as a result.

The only reason to not use a Kappa Perfect is for different cosmetics or to get a higher SPL driver(which will require going to what I refer to as a 'super' woofer, such as JL W7, TC Sounds, etc.). However, a 12" Kappa Perfect in the proper cabinet design will easily produce in-room SPL in an average sized room of over 110dB(and with no obvious distortion, either) from 20Hz on up if properly placed in the room, and driven by appropriate amplification. I also recommend placing a protection filter at or under 20Hz to prevent the ported enclosure from operating under this frequency band; thus preventing over-excursion and reduced power handling.

Here is a Kappa 12VQ project built exactly to my specs by a user here, and you can find some measurements of performance at the end of the thread:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38854

It is critical that the cabinet is designed properly to effect the level of performance that I describe.

-Chris

After owning a few different commercial HT subs I have decided to try my hand at my first HT DIY sub.(I made two car audio enclosures for JL subs, but that was back in my high school days now over a decade ago)
I have gotten some grasp on what type of sound and how loud and how low I want/need to go.
I will get into size of room, layout of room, amp choices and enclosures as I progress. I am here to get first things first done.

So I come to the DIY experts to ask my first stage question....which subs in your experience have a sound 'quality' of top level that makes music so rich:
A. Sized 12"-15" only
B. Size of enclosure would ideally be < 4.5cu. ft.
C. Please list if the driver(s) you reccomend are ideal for ported or sealed enclosures as I am building my box based on my driver.
D. If you could list a ballpark expect to see price for shopping but without names I would appreciate that as well.
My budget is not stuck in stone but I'd like to stay below $400 for driver, amp, connections and eq 'if needed'.
I will be building the enclosure and this price range allows me $100 for the box and finish.
If there are options that would fill my needs for less than $400 for driver and amp that's fine.

For reference, I listen to predominantly motown and classic rock. I like as clean a sound as possible and although I enjoy the internal rumble from output below say 18/20Hz(in movies) that is not as of as much importance as SQ. Then output comes third as anything I build will be capable of goinbg louder than I ever listen to even when maxing out in movie mode.(my eDA5-350 was hardly ever pushed really hard, but I wouldn't mind having as much or more output if wanted)

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

WmAx....
Thank you!
Other than the Kappa, JL and TC Sounds, what are some other driver options?
Are Rythmik drivers as good as those above? How about the SDX drivers that I often hear about?(don't know who makes them)
If you could do the same as you did before with describing which drivers are considered to be "super" drivers that would be great!

 

[WmAx]

WmAx....
Thank you!
Other than the Kappa, JL and TC Sounds, what are some other driver options?
Are Rythmik drivers as good as those above? How about the SDX drivers that I often hear about?(don't know who makes them)
If you could do the same as you did before with describing which drivers are considered to be "super" drivers that would be great!

I really can't give you information on a huge number of drivers, I was trying to simply suggest a driver that I know is superbly linear and will not limit SQ in any budget level of system(the only limiting factor is the quality of the cabinet design in this example). Many drivers are unknown in quality, but Kappa Perfects have been measured in 3rd party analysis and can be coorelated to other well regarded designs. For example, the Kappa Perfect 12" unit is tested at hometheatershack.com's test archive, and it's used in a small sealed enclosure, with a vastly underpowered amplifier, and it still manages to outperform the Velodyne DD-12 high end home unit in terms of SPL and distortion; the DD-12 is a very high quality small sealed servo-feedback system and the passive Kappa Perfect exceeded it's performance even when used in non-ideal circumstances. Use the Kappa Perfect with appropriate power, and in a proper ported system, and the performance is outstanding. I have used these units and they offer no limit on sound quality, and that is with using them in extraordinary quality reproduction/monitoring systems that meet my personal(extreme) standards.

The JL W6 V2 is also in the same league as the Kappa Perfect; it also has superbly linear motor within it's rated x-max. It will be comparable in SPL, also, but like the Perfect, the box design quality is paramount to it's performance. A super woofer like the W7 will not provide higher sound quality. It will provide more SPL with the same flawless sound quality. But considering that the drivers I already recommended produce more SPL than can be used in actual music reproduction or HT use, even, then using a 'super woofer' is just for showing off and knowing you have the best of the best. If you want the most affordable 'semi' 'super' woofer, get Audio Pulse(TC Sounds) drivers from www.partsexpress.com or Sound Splinter(TC Sounds) from www.soundsplinter.com and for just a little more than the Kappa Perfects, you can get higher SPL with equal SQ. But realize, you need to use something along the lines of high powered PA amps to drive these speakers. Even a powerful Behringer EP2500(650x2 RMS at 4 ohms) will clip before I can exceed the capability of my Kappa Perfect woofers. You can use EP2500 amps in bridged mono to produce about 2000 watts at 4 ohms each, for the more extreme woofers.

-Chris

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

The VQ looks and sounds to be great, that box is a little bit more than I want to get into for my first build though.
I am worried that my build will handicap my driver, so maybe a driver that doesn't require as much of a precise build would be better? Or are all the same and will all perform much better with a more complicated build?(if that makes sense)

Also, is there a site where you can punch in different numbers for size of enclosure and tuning and such?

Thanks so much for your help!

 

[WmAx]

The VQ looks and sounds to be great, that box is a little bit more than I want to get into for my first build though.
I am worried that my build will handicap my driver, so maybe a driver that doesn't require as much of a precise build would be better? Or are all the same and will all perform much better with a more complicated build?(if that makes sense)

Also, is there a site where you can punch in different numbers for size of enclosure and tuning and such?

Thanks so much for your help!

Well, it is critical, due to the high power handling and high LINEAR excursion ability of the driver.

You can get drivers that do not require such extensive cabinet design. The Dayton (www.partsexpress.com) basic woofers, such as classic and quattro, or good value, low cost woofers that do not need cabinet systems like higher quality drivers, because power handling and linear excursion are not at the same level. Because they are so low cost(but still have great performance, considering the price), they are great drivers to learn with and do 'practice' projects.

-Chris

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

There inlines my quandry.
I have owned a decent quality set-up with the A5-350 and don't want to take a big step backwards.
also, I can't afford to make a test run now if it is say 75% of my original soft budget as that would delay my next/better build by a decent time period.

Now, if sealed is good enough to get enough performance out of a better driver such as the Kappa that would be a good option, no? Better than an inferior driver in a more complicated designed enclosure, no?

Once again thanks for your time and help!

 

[WmAx]

There inlines my quandry.
I have owned a decent quality set-up with the A5-350 and don't want to take a big step backwards.
also, I can't afford to make a test run now if it is say 75% of my original soft budget as that would delay my next/better build by a decent time period.

Now, if sealed is good enough to get enough performance out of a better driver such as the Kappa that would be a good option, no? Better than an inferior driver in a more complicated designed enclosure, no?

Once again thanks for your time and help!

Sealed always compromises for HT use, though. If it's for music purposes, sealed with fine, though.

It's really not that hard to do a good cabinet -- the one at the link I provided was done to the extreme - and there is no need to do that. You don't need to round the slots or use that extreme level of bracing; what that user did was to extract every bit of possible performance. You can get 90 percent of the performance with 1/3 of the work. The main thing is to use a slot with sufficient cross sectional size to prevent power compression and to use just enough bracing to push the panel resonance frequencies over the band you plan to use the sub. If you cross at 80Hz or under using a 4th order slope, not much bracing is needed at all.

-Chris

 

[annunaki]

There inlines my quandry.
I have owned a decent quality set-up with the A5-350 and don't want to take a big step backwards.
also, I can't afford to make a test run now if it is say 75% of my original soft budget as that would delay my next/better build by a decent time period.

Now, if sealed is good enough to get enough performance out of a better driver such as the Kappa that would be a good option, no? Better than an inferior driver in a more complicated designed enclosure, no?

Once again thanks for your time and help!

Eagles,

Properly bracing, porting and building the enclosure is one of the greatest flaws of commercial designs. To not execute the enclosure at a high degree does not get one as high of a payoff with the end result.

If you want the benefit of the lower cost higher sq/output systems, you must be willing to put in the extra effort to accomplish the goal.

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

I understand.
It's just that I realize my skills with woodworking and more importantly my limitations.
So why set out on a course doomed for disaster.
Can one not get great SQ out of a properly built sealed enclosure for HT, as I can build a great sealed enclosure or 'simple' proted design.

I guess I thought that I could build a sub for a little less than a commercial one it would compare to, plus get the satisfaction of the build....no matter how simple.
For example, I was hoping to be able to build something for ~$500 that would compare in performance to say a MFW-15.
Impossible?

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Sealed always compromises for HT use, though. If it's for music purposes, sealed with fine, though.

It's really not that hard to do a good cabinet -- the one at the link I provided was done to the extreme - and there is no need to do that. You don't need to round the slots or use that extreme level of bracing; what that user did was to extract every bit of possible performance. You can get 90 percent of the performance with 1/3 of the work. The main thing is to use a slot with sufficient cross sectional size to prevent power compression and to use just enough bracing to push the panel resonance frequencies over the band you plan to use the sub. If you cross at 80Hz or under using a 4th order slope, not much bracing is needed at all.

-Chris

I am confident I can do a more simple ported enclosure and I would be crossing over at 60Hz-80Hz.
Am I wrong in thinking I can build something for a little cheaper than its' comparable commercial counterparts?(like the mfw-15 or the a5-350, etc.)

 

[annunaki]

The bracing does not have to be to the same degree of complexity if it will be crossed over relatively low. However, good bracing techniques should be utilized whether one uses a sealed or ported enclosure.

 

[WmAx]

I am confident I can do a more simple ported enclosure and I would be crossing over at 60Hz-80Hz.
Am I wrong in thinking I can build something for a little cheaper than its' comparable commercial counterparts?(like the mfw-15 or the a5-350, etc.)

The Kappa Perfect in the correct cabinet would likely easily exceed the performance of the MFW-15. And since you can build a Kappa Perfect cabinet as I specify, including amplification, for about $500 or a hair more, it seems to fit in your budget. I don't know what commercial product for $500 can begin to compare with a proper Kappa Perfect subwoofer design. The SVS Ultra PB13 would be comparable in many ways to the Kappa Perfect in the proper cabinet, and that's comparing a $500 project to a $1600 retail product that is considered a superb value for it's performance. The differences between the two would be the Kappa could produce higher SPL at about 25-30hz and below, while the Ultra could produce higher SPL, slightly, over about 25-30Hz. The Kappa Perfect would have clearer upper midbass response if braced and dampened to my specification, if for some reason you were going to cross at higher than normal(>80Hz) frequencies.

-Chris

 

[flippo]

kappa perfect

I also built a sub on Kappa perfect and it sounds great. I plan on improving it more by building another box (probably following aversfis build). This is another advantage of DIY, you can always build another box later.

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

The Kappa Perfect in the correct cabinet would likely easily exceed the performance of the MFW-15. And since you can build a Kappa Perfect cabinet as I specify, including amplification, for about $500 or a hair more, it seems to fit in your budget. I don't know what commercial product for $500 can begin to compare with a proper Kappa Perfect subwoofer design. The SVS Ultra PB13 would be comparable in many ways to the Kappa Perfect in the proper cabinet, and that's comparing a $500 project to a $1600 retail product that is considered a superb value for it's performance. The differences between the two would be the Kappa could produce higher SPL at about 25-30hz and below, while the Ultra could produce higher SPL, slightly, over about 25-30Hz. The Kappa Perfect would have clearer upper midbass response if braced and dampened to my specification, if for some reason you were going to cross at higher than normal(>80Hz) frequencies.

-Chris

WOW:lightbulb:
Well, I would consider the PB13U to be a great sub...so considered me sold.
I suppose they make a perfect 10 and 15 as well? If so, what amp/eq/crossover would be used for those respectively, the same as the 12?
Thanks again!

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

I also built a sub on Kappa perfect and it sounds great. I plan on improving it more by building another box (probably following aversfis build). This is another advantage of DIY, you can always build another box later.

Have you owned any commercial subs to compare your build to?(for reference for me)
What did you use for amp/crossover/box design?
Are you builing a second for more spl? What size room?
sorry for all the questions and thanks for the help!

 

[Matt34]

WOW:lightbulb:
Well, I would consider the PB13U to be a great sub...so considered me sold.
I suppose they make a perfect 10 and 15 as well? If so, what amp/eq/crossover would be used for those respectively, the same as the 12?
Thanks again!

I believe there is only a 10" and 12" version available.

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

I believe there is only a 10" and 12" version available.

Ahh, thank you.
I only asked because the level of a PB13U is more than I need.

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

WmAx...what do you think of this review?
Seems he says there is extreme distortion in low frequences?
It's not an easy driver to find to buy online either.
Some on e-bay from retailers, but I don't know who to trust there.
It's discontinued everywhere else.
Any suggestions?

 

[avaserfi]

WmAx...what do you think of this review?
Seems he says there is extreme distortion in low frequences?
It's not an easy driver to find to buy online either.
Some on e-bay from retailers, but I don't know who to trust there.
It's discontinued everywhere else.
Any suggestions?

Chris has already mentioned that the amplifier in these measurements did not have enough power to sufficiently drive the Infinity Kappa VQ. Due to this it is likely that the gradually increased distortion at lower frequencies is actually originating in the amplifier not from the driver.

As far as purchasing the driver goes a froogle.com search of "infinity kappa vq 12" will result in a few online retailers that sell the unit. Also, it might be possible to purchase the driver directly from the source here. Do note that the site does not work well with firefox.