Most Bang for the Buck In A Powered Sub?

[Altec]

I'm looking at the new Earthquake FF-12 and maybe a JBL L8400. Anyone have any opnions on either of these subs or any in the 500 range. Yea I admit it, I got unrealistic champagne like expectations on a beer budget...

 

[WmAx]

I'm looking at the new Earthquake FF-12 and maybe a JBL L8400. Anyone have any opnions on either of these subs or any in the 500 range. Yea I admit it, I got unrealistic champagne like expectations on a beer budget...

If you are willing to do some basic wood work(you can even get a place like Lowe's to precut EVERY board to the right size for you so all you have to do is screw/glue or clamp/glue the parts together), you can build a far higher quality DIY subwoofer as compared to any commercial offering available for the price. I felt it necessary to point this out due to the title of your post.

BTW, I (and others on this forum with sufficient knowledge) will be more than willing to help you out in design and picking the right hardware to get the best results for the money.

-Chris

 

[Bluesmoke]

I don't see how anyone can beat the SVS PB10 for the under $500 category.

 

[mazersteven]

I'm looking at the new Earthquake FF-12 and maybe a JBL L8400. Anyone have any opnions on either of these subs or any in the 500 range. Yea I admit it, I got unrealistic champagne like expectations on a beer budget...

 

[WmAx]

I don't see how anyone can beat the SVS PB10 for the under $500 category.

An Infinity Kappa Perfect 12VQ driver for $170 + 500W BASH amp at Parts Express for $228 plus about $100 left for shipping and building material, plus a properly engineered cabinet as I can provide guidelines to build, and you can easily exceed the PB10 performance. The Kappa Perfect VQ is an example of a nearly textbook linear driver(I highly doubt that the SVS unit mentioned has a driver anywhere near the quality). The cabinet is a big factor as well - and the PB10 certainly has nothing special in regards to a cabinet - in fact it has a poor design for a ported system; the port causes substantial power compression in the lowest octave on the PB10. For the 12Vq, a slot port with at least 35 square inch cross section area should be used. This will prevent compression and allow the speaker to operate linearly across the entire band. A single properly engineered 12VQ ported cabinet system with appropriate power will easily provide in excess of 110dB, 20Hz on up, with no audible distortion, in an average sized room, when properly set up/placed.

User avaserfi here has built one to my specifications, and can verify this performance claim with his own measurements. See here for his step by step building process: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38854

You don't have to do the intricate bracing and rounded inner paths for the slot port he used; he wanted to follow my recommendations to a T, though, and did the extra work to get the subwoofer to be able to operate to higher frequencies than would normally be possible, using the extra bracing.

Make no mistake, a subwoofer as built exactly to specification will compare well with any high end subwoofer on the commercial market. If you want even more performance, I can outline specific designs using a TC Sounds/Audiopulse or JL Audio W7 driver, that can give you what is best referred to as 'insane' performance.

-Chris

 

[Adam]

If someone is willing to put in the time and effort, then I say they take advantage of the help offered here by Chris and others to try out a DIY project. Assuming that the design and materials are specified correctly, the risk is in the implementation. The potential pay off is as Chris has said - a likely better-bang-for-the-buck end product.

However, if someone is willing to pay for the convenience of getting an already-made product, then there are some good choices out there. I'm very happy with my SVS, but it's over the $500 price listed by the OP, and I've never heard their less expensive models - although I've read praise by others here. Hsu is also highly recommended, as are some brands that can be purchased at a number of retailers in most towns and on the internet.

 

[amnesiac]

Chris, i've been lurking around here reading up on your various posts and i'm intrigued. i would pm but i haven't accumulated enough posts yet so let me explain my situation.

i have a huge room to deal with (22x19x22ft) that's open to the stairs and kitchen, but i'm in school away from home most of the year so the budget is limited as my parents would probably otherwise be fine with just the tv speakers... So i read up and planned on getting primus 162s, level 1 modding them with peel n seel and rock wool but i ended up going with closeout beta 20s for even less than what i could get the primuses for. the front will be beta 20s and a c360 center, but now i need to get the low frequencies taken care of.

after dvd player, receiver and speakers i have around $500 left for a sub and i've been playing with the idea of the parts express dayton reference sub as it's supposed to have good clean closed box bass and it has the 500 watt plate amp. However, with this thread i've gotten to thinking that instead of a diy kit, building the cabinet might be a fun summer project that could yield favorable results.

So what do you think of the dayton reference kit? would the kappa build be better suited to my application? i read the other thread, does a box for the kappa have to be that big as placement could become problematic in this space... Do you have any other diy suggestions off the top of your head that might meet my needs better?

apologies for the long rambling arguably threadjacking post

nate

 

[Altec]

An Infinity Kappa Perfect 12VQ driver for $170 + 500W BASH amp at Parts Express for $228 plus about $100 left for shipping and building material, plus a properly engineered cabinet as I can provide guidelines to build, and you can easily exceed the PB10 performance. The Kappa Perfect VQ is an example of a nearly textbook linear driver(I highly doubt that the SVS unit mentioned has a driver anywhere near the quality). The cabinet is a big factor as well - and the PB10 certainly has nothing special in regards to a cabinet - in fact it has a poor design for a ported system; the port causes substantial power compression in the lowest octave on the PB10. For the 12Vq, a slot port with at least 35 square inch cross section area should be used. This will prevent compression and allow the speaker to operate linearly across the entire band. A single properly engineered 12VQ ported cabinet system with appropriate power will easily provide in excess of 110dB, 20Hz on up, with no audible distortion, in an average sized room, when properly set up/placed.

User avaserfi here has built one to my specifications, and can verify this performance claim with his own measurements. See here for his step by step building process: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38854

You don't have to do the intricate bracing and rounded inner paths for the slot port he used; he wanted to follow my recommendations to a T, though, and did the extra work to get the subwoofer to be able to operate to higher frequencies than would normally be possible, using the extra bracing.

Make no mistake, a subwoofer as built exactly to specification will compare well with any high end subwoofer on the commercial market. If you want even more performance, I can outline specific designs using a TC Sounds/Audiopulse or JL Audio W7 driver, that can give you what is best referred to as 'insane' performance.

-Chris

Thanks for your suggestions everybody. A DIY kit is one possibility I have thought of. I will give it consideration and appreciate your input if I do go that route. I know SVS makes some excellent subs and saving up for one may be a good option to get that "insane performance." I guess there really are not to many shortcuts on spending the cash unless I want to build it myself. Thanks Chris.

 

[Altec]

Thanks Cynic.

 

[westcott]

I'm looking at the new Earthquake FF-12 and maybe a JBL L8400. Anyone have any opnions on either of these subs or any in the 500 range. Yea I admit it, I got unrealistic champagne like expectations on a beer budget...

I was looking for a subwoofer for the master bedroom system I have been putting together for my wife and looked at a lot of subwoofers before deciding on the Infinity SW12. It generates over 87dB at 20Hz and 107db over the rest of the frequency range. It comes in black or cherry (added feature at this price point) and has a built in bass frequency adjustments for US$400 shipped to my door without tax.

I looked at a lot of subs but the Infinity was the best performer below $500 with other than a black finish. I compared it against the SVS and the HSU Research and both were more expensive and could not match overall frequency response levels of the Infinity.

See attached Nousaines Subwoofer Shootout!!!

 

[croseiv]

I was looking for a subwoofer for the master bedroom system I have been putting together for my wife and looked at a lot of subwoofers before deciding on the Infinity SW12. It generates over 87dB at 20Hz and 107db over the rest of the frequency range. It comes in black or cherry (added feature at this price point) and has a built in bass frequency adjustments for US$400 shipped to my door without tax.

I looked at a lot of subs but the Infinity was the best performer below $500 with other than a black finish. I compared it against the SVS and the HSU Research and both were more expensive and could not match overall frequency response levels of the Infinity.

See attached Nousaines Subwoofer Shootout!!!

Dang. I was hoping to see the PB13-Ultra in there. It must be close to the Conquest. I was surprised to see the PSW-650 placed higher up the scale.

 

[WmAx]

Thanks for your suggestions everybody. A DIY kit is one possibility I have thought of. I will give it consideration and appreciate your input if I do go that route. I know SVS makes some excellent subs and saving up for one may be a good option to get that "insane performance." I guess there really are not to many shortcuts on spending the cash unless I want to build it myself. Thanks Chris.

Subwoofers are the easiest type of speaker to design due to the superb drivers available for DIY use. All that is needed is basic knowledge in how to design the cabinet to address various performance factors.

Just for your reference, in regards to your idea of 'insane peformance', one can likely obtain roughly equal to or better(under 25Hz SPL and in regards of upper harmonic lower mid range performance) performance as compared to a PB13Ultra from a single Kappa Perfect 12VQ in the cabinet system I specify; but it has to be built closely to my specification(s). That is an example of what you can do for $500 DIY. For $1000 DIY range, I can do substantially better as compared to a PB13Ultra. I am using the PB13Ultra as a reference point here because it is a generally well designed unit with 3rd party measurements demonstrating above average performance for a commercial unit and it seems to be considered an excellent value in the commercial field.

-Chris

 

[davidtwotrees]

As a professional contractor with above average woodworking skills, who also happens to spend about $15k a year at Home Depot, I must point out that Home Depot should not be trusted to cut wood to "exact" specifications. Their cuts are rough at best and should be taken as such. I work in a lot of homes......DIY's with no woodworking skills generally turn out projects that look like they were built by..........DIY's with no woodworking skills. Can people make something from the kits to your specs, WmAx? Perhaps bracing the kit cabinets? Don't mean to be a wet blanket.....just have seen a lot of DIY stuff that I would not want in my home, let alone my rig........

 

[WmAx]

As a professional contractor with above average woodworking skills, who also happens to spend about $15k a year at Home Depot, I must point out that Home Depot should not be trusted to cut wood to "exact" specifications. Their cuts are rough at best and should be taken as such.

You can get accurate cuts if you use a cutting plan and verify the position/measurement of the pieces when they cut. While I generally cut all of my own wood, I have had subwoofer box panels cut out this way, in terms of the critical parts like the 4 sides. Key is to make sure the critical cut of height for example, is all done with the panel saw set once in the horizontal position, so all these cuts some out exactly the same. Then, for the other dimension, you need to measure each point and mark it on the board for the saw operator. To do this, figure out on paper in what steps/direction the 4 x 8' panel must be cut to accomplish this and take the layout paper with you and instruct from that point. Generous use of Bondo will take care of the rest. After you have the smooth, squared box, apply veneer, which is pretty easy. But I recommend a beginner practice veneer before doing the final application. They can do this buy purchasing extra veneer and practice applying to a scrap or old piece of furniture that is otherwise garbage. Veneer is not difficult work, one just needs to get a hang of the right angles to cut it, etc. on a scrap/practice piece first.

Can people make something from the kits to your specs, WmAx? Perhaps bracing the kit cabinets? Don't mean to be a wet blanket.....just have seen a lot of DIY stuff that I would not want in my home, let alone my rig........

Unfortunately, the port is so critical, that one can not simply use a pre-fab kit box and install a regular port tube and get the high output compression free performance that a proper slot port offers. If the kit box is big enough to contain both the volume for the driver and the slot port, then you can glue in boards to make a slot port. But most kit boxes seem rather small for this purpose if you intend to use a 10" or 12" driver.

-Chris

 

[westcott]

Dang. I was hoping to see the PB13-Ultra in there. It must be close to the Conquest. I was surprised to see the PSW-650 placed higher up the scale.

I think many are suprised by the list. Limiting test results to below 10% distortion really changes the ranking of many well thought of subwoofers and raises the bar for those that are not usually considered. My RSW15 fairs very well against the Conquest, and if you consider the size and cherry finish, it is a steal.

 

[Sheep]

An Infinity Kappa Perfect 12VQ driver for $170 + 500W BASH amp at Parts Express for $228 plus about $100 left for shipping and building material, plus a properly engineered cabinet as I can provide guidelines to build, and you can easily exceed the PB10 performance. The Kappa Perfect VQ is an example of a nearly textbook linear driver(I highly doubt that the SVS unit mentioned has a driver anywhere near the quality). The cabinet is a big factor as well - and the PB10 certainly has nothing special in regards to a cabinet - in fact it has a poor design for a ported system; the port causes substantial power compression in the lowest octave on the PB10. For the 12Vq, a slot port with at least 35 square inch cross section area should be used. This will prevent compression and allow the speaker to operate linearly across the entire band. A single properly engineered 12VQ ported cabinet system with appropriate power will easily provide in excess of 110dB, 20Hz on up, with no audible distortion, in an average sized room, when properly set up/placed.

User avaserfi here has built one to my specifications, and can verify this performance claim with his own measurements. See here for his step by step building process: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38854

You don't have to do the intricate bracing and rounded inner paths for the slot port he used; he wanted to follow my recommendations to a T, though, and did the extra work to get the subwoofer to be able to operate to higher frequencies than would normally be possible, using the extra bracing.

Make no mistake, a subwoofer as built exactly to specification will compare well with any high end subwoofer on the commercial market. If you want even more performance, I can outline specific designs using a TC Sounds/Audiopulse or JL Audio W7 driver, that can give you what is best referred to as 'insane' performance.

-Chris

You left out the price of tools and the possible trail and error involved with people that are not inclined to building things.

SheepStar

 

[croseiv]

I think many are suprised by the list. Limiting test results to below 10% distortion really changes the ranking of many well thought of subwoofers and raises the bar for those that are not usually considered. My RSW15 fairs very well against the Conquest, and if you consider the size and cherry finish, it is a steal.

While the PSW-650 does rank higher than I thought, I can verify that the Ultra clearly out classes it in every way. It can handle bass scenes that just overload the PSW-650 even at moderate volumes. While I can't call the Ultra a "steal", it certainly keeps me grinning. I sure would like to see where it ranks in that setting.