Analog Output In the digital realm - Need another lesson

[gus6464]

So does a player that can do DSD on it's own and pass through analog with a price of <$500 exist? The Oppo and many others are actually transports.

 

[gus6464]

I just spoke with my local audio shop guy and he did some research.
The Yamaha DVDC961 is capable of DSD direct through HDMI.
Like the Oppo situation, what really weird is that the new S2700 can not do it. Its about $800. The C961 can, is about $380, and also is a 5 disc changer - with some kind of disc isolation system like a single disc player. The store guy said its the only changer he knows of that does this.

Yamaha C961
Super Audio CD PCM signal transmission via HDMI

Those are from the specs sheet so it's DAC actually takes the DSD signal and converts to PCM before sending out through HDMI.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Oppo 980H
Direct Stream Digital (DSD) over HDMI (Requires compatible A/V receiver)

Well that sucks because if you don't have a receiver with HDMI and whose DACs can actually output DSD without converting to PCM you still screwed.

It's funny how you see a player and you are glad it can play sacd but there is still so much more to it. So in essence for a player to be a "true" SACD player it has to output DSD either by it's own DAC or you have to have a compatible receiver with a native DSD DAC.

Exactly.

Just like DTS-MA. Some BD players can only send the bitstream for DTS-MA. As of TODAY, only 2 BD players are capable of internally decoding DTS-MA: Denon DVD-3800BDCI and PS3

As with the case of DSD. Most players don't even have DSD-Direct. Some players can only act as a Transport -- capable of sending via HDMI 1.2/1.3. Only the higher dollar SACD players can internally decode DSD directly to analog without converting to PCM.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So does a player that can do DSD on it's own and pass through analog with a price of <$500 exist? The Oppo and many others are actually transports.

Well, let's start a search, shall we?

http://dakmart.com/itemdetails/31365/185/

I think it has DSD-direct, but I'm still not 100% certain.

Yes, it does:
http://ca.denon.com/ProductDetails/3091.asp

The Burr-Brown PCM1791 is DSD-discrete!

So there you go.

 

[timetohunt]

Think about it. For AVR based systems - If this works well, it could eliminate the need for 6 extra cables in your set up or in a new setup for folks coming aboard the HT hobby that may want DVD-A and SACD. If you use or believe in high end connects that could be a fair piece of change elimated as well.

 

[gus6464]

Think about it. For AVR based systems - If this works well, it could eliminate the need for 6 extra cables in your set up or in a new setup for folks coming aboard the HT hobby that may want DVD-A and SACD. If you use or believe in high end connects that could be a fair piece of change elimated as well.

But what if you have a 2ch system with an analog integrated or preamp?

 

[gus6464]

Well, let's start a search, shall we?

http://dakmart.com/itemdetails/31365/185/

I think it has DSD-direct, but I'm still not 100% certain.

Yes, it does:
http://ca.denon.com/ProductDetails/3091.asp

The Burr-Brown PCM1791 is DSD-discrete!

So there you go.

Even though the DAC is DSD compatible I am worried about the PCM discrete part in the description.

Burr-Brown 24/192 Audio DACs (DSD/PCM Discrete)

Guess only way to find out is to email Denon.

Digital Bass Management for DVD-Audio/MLP/SACD, High (12dB) and Low Pass (24dB) with Speaker Configuration/Level Control and Delay Time Control Selectable 40/60/80/100/120

I guess the only way to know for sure is to have one in your hands and turn on Pure Direct to see if you can still hear an SACD in order to bypass Bass Management.

 

[gus6464]

I found another one ACDT.

NAD T-585 $500
http://nadelectronics.com/products/dvd-players/T585-Universal-DVD-Player

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=NAT585

This one actually has 2 separate DACs. An Analog Devices and Cirrus Logic DAC although I don't know which one handles DSD.

Parasound D200 $600
http://www.parasound.com/nc/d200.php

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PACD200

According to specs this one might actually also send DSD bitstream via optical like the $3000 Sony ES player.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Even though the DAC is DSD compatible I am worried about the PCM discrete part in the description.

Burr-Brown 24/192 Audio DACs (DSD/PCM Discrete)

Guess only way to find out is to email Denon.

Digital Bass Management for DVD-Audio/MLP/SACD, High (12dB) and Low Pass (24dB) with Speaker Configuration/Level Control and Delay Time Control Selectable 40/60/80/100/120

I guess the only way to know for sure is to have one in your hands and turn on Pure Direct to see if you can still hear an SACD in order to bypass Bass Management.

Here's some stuff on the DVD-2910, which is $250:

http://dakmart.com/search.php?keyword=denon+dvd-2910

http://usa.denon.com/DVD2910_ownersmanual.pdf

The key section is SOURCE DIRECT.

PCM1791 DSD/PCM discrete refers to the ability of DSD-Direct.

But yeah, just email denon.

 

[timetohunt]

I got lost in what you guys were trying to track down. Are you looking for players that pass DSD direct through analog or HDMI or both ? Seems that there are plenty that do this through analog I/Cs - ever since they started making SACD players. My Marantz DV7600 passes DSD direct through analog - I'm pretty sure.
But were you all saying that it turns out that many of those we though passed DSD actually are passing PCM ?

As for HDMI it seems that there are just a few doing it as you pointed out - and some appear (as their forebearers did) to be converting to PCM first.

So then, which players of all that you found actually send DSD through HDMI ?

 

[gus6464]

I got lost in what you guys were trying to track down. Are you looking for players that pass DSD direct through analog or HDMI or both ? Seems that there are plenty that do this through analog I/Cs - ever since they started making SACD players. My Marantz DV7600 passes DSD direct through analog - I'm pretty sure.
But were you all saying that it turns out that many of those we though passed DSD actually are passing PCM ?

As for HDMI it seems that there are just a few doing it as you pointed out - and some appear (as their forebearers did) to be converting to PCM first.

So then, which players of all that you found actually send DSD through HDMI ?

Ok from what both me and ACDT read there are actually different kind of SACD players. For an SACD player to qualify as a "true" SACD player it has to output DSD all the way to the speakers. Most inexpensive SACD players will take DSD and convert it to PCM through the DAC out the analog outputs. Now with the introduction of HDMI some players can send a native DSD bitstream signal (Oppo 980H is one of them) through HDMI to a receiver but the DACs on your receiver have to be capable of processing a DSD and not convert it to PCM when passing it to the speakers. One receiver whose DACs can process DSD without converting to PCM is the Onkyo 805.

So the Oppo 980H is actually considered a DSD transport since it's DAC will convert the DSD signal into PCM before sending it through the analog outputs. But through HDMI it will send a native DSD signal to your receiver's DAC for further processing.

Now players like the NAD, Denon, and Parasound we linked have DACs which will preserve the DSD signal and send it out the analog outputs untouched. So in essence you have two options. If you already have an HDMI receiver which you know it's DACs support DSD and don't convert to PCM before sending out to the speakers then an Oppo 980H is all you need. But if you have an older receiver with no HDMI, or any 2ch preamp or integrated amp, then you need a player like the Denon, Parasound, or NAD above.

Now while some will say who cares if the DSD signal gets converted to PCM, I think what is the point of SACD if you are not taking advantage of it's main feature which gives you the better sound quality which is DSD. Now earlier I was under the impression that only select titles are mastered in DSD but that is not the case. All SACD titles are actually remastered in the studio and converted to DSD to higher sampling rates than regular CDs. I hope I explained myself well enough so that you can understand.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Key is the DACs in the receiver

If you look at the Burr-Brown DACs spec sheets, you can tell if the DACs are DSD/PCM Discrete or not. If the DACs are DSD/PCM Discrete, it means that it can handle DSD-Direct. This includes the Burr-Brown PCM-1791, 1792, and 1796.

The Onkyo 805/875/905 & Denon 5308 & AVP-A1HDCI have the PCM1796. The Denon 3808 & 4308 have the PCM1791. So they are DSD-Direct capable receivers.

The Marantz players (> $800) are probably DSD-Direct, but they don't tell you which DACs they use.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So then, which players of all that you found actually send DSD through HDMI ?

Basically if a player has HDMI 1.2 or 1.3 and can send DSD-Direct, then it can send DSD-Direct via HDMI to a receiver that has HDMI 1.2 or 1.3 and has the DACs (like Burr-Brown PCM1791, 1792, 1796) that are capable of DSD-Direct.

The Oppo 980 looks to be the cheapest player to send DSD-Direct via HDMI 1.2.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Parasound D200 $600
http://www.parasound.com/nc/d200.php

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PACD200

According to specs this one might actually also send DSD bitstream via optical like the $3000 Sony ES player.

- HDMI 1.1
- DVD-A and multi-channel SACD, with bass management
- SACD goes directly to audio DACs as a DSD bit stream

First, let's talk about Optical cable. We know that Optical digital is NOT robust enough to even send the Bitstream for DD+, TrueHD, DTS-HR, and DTS-MA. Optical can only send the Bitstream for plain DD & DTS.

So unless they actually say "will send DSD-Direct via Optical", I doubt that it will. I haven't read everything, so does it say that it will?

If it can really send via Optical, that's something new.

Now this Parasound SACD player only has HDMI-1.1, so it canNOT send via HDMI.

Another thing is the BASS MANAGEMENT. It says that it can play MCh SACD with Bass Management. Well, if that's the case, it is NOT DSD-direct! It's PCM.

You cannot use bass management with DSD-direct. You can only use bass management with PCM!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

$3,000 Sony SACD Player

"The the SCD-XA9000ES super audio CD player incorporates an uncompressed digital output for the Direct Stream Digital® signal. This i.LINK®2 digital audio interface is your gateway to a growing range of outboard D/A converters from specialty audio companies."

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=11039766

Okay, just as I thought. The DSD signal is sent via i.LINK-2, NOT OPTICAL!

This i.LINK2 is kind of like the Denon D-LINK 3.

I wonder if Sony sells the i.Link2 cable for $500?
Sorry, couldn't help it.

So you can send DSD-Direct via HDMI-1.2/1.3, Denon-LINK3, i-LINK2, or Analog.

I think Meridian also has the i-LINK, or maybe it's Meridian-LINK.

But Not Optical.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Harman Kardon DVD 48 SACD

Well, that's pretty sad. I looked at the manual and did a search for "DSD".

It's not even printed anywhere in the manual!

So again, this HK SACD player will convert DSD to PCM, just like most of the so-called SACD players.

 

[timetohunt]

I hope I explained myself well enough so that you can understand.

Yep. Crystal clear. thanks. So now I'm not sure if my Marantz DV7600 passes DSD or converts to PCM. How would I know for sure. I realize I could call Marantz, but lately they have terrible customer support - and I don't trust anything they say.

Also - based on what I've read here so far about DSD over HDMI, is the way the Oppo handles it the only possible way. In other words, are there players that can both decode and pass the decoded DSD over HDMI?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Also - based on what I've read here so far about DSD over HDMI, is the way the Oppo handles it the only possible way. In other words, are there players that can both decode and pass the decoded DSD over HDMI?

Yes, the Denon SACD players can internally decode DSD straight to Analog and output via Analog 5.1.

It can also send DSD-Direct via HDMI-1.2 or D-Link3.

But after any player has internally decode DSD straight to Analog, it cannot be sent via HDMI since HDMI is DIGITAL, not analog. If it is sent via HDMI, then it's PCM.

So the high-dollar Denon, Marantz, & Sony ES SACD players can either Internally decode DSD and send via Analog 5.1, or send DSD-Direct via HDMI 1.2 or D-Link3 or i-Link2 to a processor that has the DSD/PCM Discrete DACs, like the Burr-Brown PCM1791, 1792, & 1796.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So now I'm not sure if my Marantz DV7600 passes DSD or converts to PCM. How would I know for sure. I realize I could call Marantz, but lately they have terrible customer support - and I don't trust anything they say.

Here you go:

http://us.marantz.com/Products/397.asp

"The DV7600 combines audio expertise with advanced video circuitry to satisfy the most avid home entertainment enthusiast. It handles DVD, DVD-A, SACD (stereo and multi-channel), CD, CD-R, CD-RW, VCD 2.0, SVCD, and MP-3 discs! With true DSD processing for SACD discs."

Just make sure it is in Direct mode - no bass management.

However, since it has HDMI-1.1, you cannot send DSD-Direct via HDMI. The player will have to internally decode DSD straight to analog and send via Analog 5.1.

 

[obscbyclouds]

I just want to point out that if you are indeed using DSD < Analog, you will have no bass management. Therefore, all 5 speakers should be identical and full-range. There will also be no time alignment (aka Distance), therefore, each speaker should be the same linear distance from the listening position.