PC capabilities?

[sploo]

Hi all,

I'm about to put together a new PC (mainly for playing HD video), but I'd like it to at least be able to play some of the latest games.

I've been out of the loop for years, so I've no idea about the current state of the 'tech' (my last purchase was a 2600+ Athlon with an nVidia 6800, for Half Life 2).

I'd specced up a Gigabyte P45 based mobo, with a Q6600 CPU (either that or an E8400) and an ATI HD 3870. Could anyone tell me if that stands any hope of being able to run recent games (i.e. will it collapse if Crysis got anywhere near it)?

 

[gus6464]

I saw you thread in the other subforum about wanting HDMI with blu-ray playback so I recommend you get this video card over the Radeon.

PALiT NE/960TSX0202 GeForce 9600GT SONIC 1GB
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814261013

It has Displayport, HDMI, and DVI with a toslink input so it sends both audio and video through the HDMI. My friend has one in his HTPC with a 46" 1080p Samsung LCD and it runs Crysis pretty decently at 1080p resolution as long your settings are not maxed out.

 

[jnmfox]

See my post in response to you questions in the CD/DVD/Blu-ray & Misc Hardware section.

Concerning the CPU, choose a faster dual core if you are building your rig for gaming and quad if you will be doing a lot of media encoding.
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/intel/showdoc.aspx?i=3038&p=8
The article is a little old but the comparison still applies with the current Wolfdale Core 2 Duo chips.

 

[sploo]

Impressive. I was trying to choose between a 9600 and a 3870 (I've previously bought nVidia, so was leaning towards the 9600, but a friend noted that the ATI cards come with DVI-HDMI adaptors).

Does that card genuinely output 1080p? I'm told Blu-ray discs are usually 1080p, so it seems really odd to me that the cards I've seen only claimed 1080i output.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Rickster71]

A second vote for the GeForce .
I never liked ATI due to the antiquated way they perform driver updates.
Also, a link to Tom's Hardware, Best Graphics Cards for the Money: June 08
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/graphics-cards,1942.html

 

[jnmfox]

Impressive. I was trying to choose between a 9600 and a 3870 (I've previously bought nVidia, so was leaning towards the 9600, but a friend noted that the ATI cards come with DVI-HDMI adaptors).

Does that card genuinely output 1080p? I'm told Blu-ray discs are usually 1080p, so it seems really odd to me that the cards I've seen only claimed 1080i output.

Thanks for the info.

Yes, it does 1080p
http://www.sapphiretech.com/us/products/products_overview.php?gpid=244

 

[jnmfox]

A second vote for the GeForce .
I never liked ATI due to the antiquated way they perform driver updates.
Also, a link to Tom's Hardware, Best Graphics Cards for the Money: June 08
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/graphics-cards,1942.html

That doesn't include the 4850 or 4870. Here is their review of the 4850

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-4850,1957-24.html
"A too-hasty launch, but a card with a red-hot performance/price ratio despite its use of a reworked architecture, now optimized and extremely effective at this price level. Despite its advance in presenting the GeForce 9800 GTX +, Nvidia has been bested for performance/price ratio and at this price level."

BTW I have a nVidia 7900GT in my rig so I'm not a fanboy. I'm just impressed with the performance/features you get for the $200.

 

[gus6464]

Impressive. I was trying to choose between a 9600 and a 3870 (I've previously bought nVidia, so was leaning towards the 9600, but a friend noted that the ATI cards come with DVI-HDMI adaptors).

Does that card genuinely output 1080p? I'm told Blu-ray discs are usually 1080p, so it seems really odd to me that the cards I've seen only claimed 1080i output.

Thanks for the info.

1080p is a resolution (1920x1080). As long as you have a TV that is 1080p and a card that can output 1920x1080 you will be fine. Now the problem with BD and HTPC is the audio aspect. Even though that ATI card has 8ch MPCM over HDMI it still cannot do TrueHD or DTS-HD/MA. There is only one sound card I know which can do the high def sound which is the new Asus Xonar but it's not out yet. And from preliminary reports I hear the drivers are pretty flaky so it could be a pain to get everything working right. So if you don't care to have high def sound with your BD then the ATI card is the way to go. Now if you also want sound and have some decent HT speakers then a new receiver like the Yammy RX-V663 and a PS3 would be your best bet. You could always still have the HTPC for downloaded stuff like music or movies and have the best of both worlds.

If you go the full blown HTPC route you will find out soon enough that they are a pain in the *** to get everything running smoothly. Integrating DVR into a HTPC was one of the most pain in the *** things I have ever done and it would still only work half the time. The only thing I have found a PC do flawlessly and without much trouble is using it as a music server. And even then if you go with something like a squeezebox using a NAS for storage is still the way to go bypassing a PC entirely. Although I must say that a hacked Mac mini with external storage works pretty damn well with music and video too.

 

[gus6464]

BTW as of right now in the sub $200 sector the ATI 4850 is the way to go but they can be a bit hard to find as it's pretty new. Nvidia's drivers have always been superior to ATI's but this is still a superb card for the money.

 

[jnmfox]

Even though that ATI card has 8ch MPCM over HDMI it still cannot do TrueHD or DTS-HD/MA. There is only one sound card I know which can do the high def sound which is the new Asus Xonar but it's not out yet. And from preliminary reports I hear the drivers are pretty flaky so it could be a pain to get everything working right. So if you don't care to have high def sound with your BD then the ATI card is the way to go.

The media player does the decoding of the hi-def audio formats sending the LPCM stream to the receiver. Just like it would be done with a PS3.

 

[jnmfox]

BTW as of right now in the sub $200 sector the ATI 4850 is the way to go but they can be a bit hard to find as it's pretty new.

Not too difficult...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&Description=4850&bop=And&Order=PRICE

Nvidia's drivers have always been superior to ATI's but this is still a superb card for the money.

Superior drivers? According to who? ATI/AMD has a monthly driver release schedule, much better than what I get from nVidia for my card.

Saying one company's drivers are better than another is like saying one company's speakers are better than another.

 

[gus6464]

The media player does the decoding of the hi-def audio formats sending the LPCM stream to the receiver. Just like it would be done with a PS3.

PowerDVD is the only app out right now that can do TrueHD but it can only do DTS-HD and not DTS-HD/MA which is what the majority of BD titles use when they have a DTS soundtrack.

http://www.cyberlink.com/english/products/powerdvd/8/hd_interactive.jsp

Supported Audio Formats
# Dolby TrueHD (7.1-channel)
# Dolby Digital EX (7.1-channel)
# Dolby Digital Plus (7.1-channel)
# Dolby Meridian Lossless Packing (MLP)
# DTS-HD (7.1-channel)
# DTS (5.1 channel)
# DTS 96/24 decoding
# DTS-ES (Discrete and Matrix)

Edit: Apparently new version with MA support is coming out in July sometime.

 

[jnmfox]

Edit: Apparently new version with MA support is coming out in July sometime.

It isn't a new version it is an update for existing users.
http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=23553

WinDVD 9 also supports all the new hi-def audio formats.

 

[jnmfox]

If you go the full blown HTPC route you will find out soon enough that they are a pain in the *** to get everything running smoothly. Integrating DVR into a HTPC was one of the most pain in the *** things I have ever done and it would still only work half the time. The only thing I have found a PC do flawlessly and without much trouble is using it as a music server. And even then if you go with something like a squeezebox using a NAS for storage is still the way to go bypassing a PC entirely. Although I must say that a hacked Mac mini with external storage works pretty damn well with music and video too.

I agree getting everything setup in a HTPC is a pain, I enjoyed using the MyHD 130 to record HD and it wasn't too much of a pain, other than a few missed shows because of time changes or a frozen PC. But after getting a Dish HD DVR I don't think I could go back, it is so much simpler and easier, my wife can use the DVR where as I had do everything with the MyHD. Although you do lose all the options you have with a HTPC like archiving shows in Xvid or X264 but I rarely watch a show more than one, unless it is The Office.

One nice thing is I found is editing HD programs with HDTVtoMPEG2 benefited from a RAID 0 configuration. At least all the time and effort I put into getting it setup wasn't wasted...

 

[sploo]

1080p is a resolution (1920x1080). As long as you have a TV that is 1080p and a card that can output 1920x1080 you will be fine.

Yea, I've just been reading some online manuals for the gfx cards, and I'm wondering if I'm being dumb. I'm thinking that the 'HDTV output' details on the cards are going to refer to the card's capability to output to component - i.e. the analogue TV capability. IRC a component connection can do progressive at 480 and 720, but only 'i' at 1080, so that would tie in with what the card's are claiming.

Surely if a TV is 1920x1080p, and connected over DVI/HDMI it's just going to effectively be a monitor to the PC, so you're going to get 1920x1080 'p'? I think...

Now the problem with BD and HTPC is the audio aspect....

Good point. I have a (IMHO) very good audio setup, so I was planning on running both a digital and analogue audio connection to my receiver. I guess the digital should handle Dolby 5.1. Would I be correct in thinking the PC's soundcard should decode the HD audio formats and chuck it out of the jacks on the back? OK, so it's going to go via the PCs DAC, but my receiver is too old to support the HD audio formats anyway.

If you go the full blown HTPC route you will find out soon enough that they are a pain in the *** to get everything running smoothly. Integrating DVR into a HTPC was one of the most pain in the *** things I have ever done and it would still only work half the time.

Yea. The issue is that there are no HD DVRs available for the UK free satellite system just yet, so it's my only choice. Plus a mate has got it running, and reckons it's OK. It would mainly be a Blu-ray player right now though.

 

[jnmfox]

Good point. I have a (IMHO) very good audio setup, so I was planning on running both a digital and analogue audio connection to my receiver. I guess the digital should handle Dolby 5.1. Would I be correct in thinking the PC's soundcard should decode the HD audio formats and chuck it out of the jacks on the back? OK, so it's going to go via the PCs DAC, but my receiver is too old to support the HD audio formats anyway.

The only way to get the new audio formats is over HDMI. If you receiver doesn't support HDMI the audio will be plain DD or DTS not the new hi-def formats.

What components will you be using with the HTPC?

 

[gus6464]

Superior drivers? According to who? ATI/AMD has a monthly driver release schedule, much better than what I get from nVidia for my card.

Saying one company's drivers are better than another is like saying one company's speakers are better than another.

Ohh so I guess ATI linux drivers are better than Nvidia. Ohh wait ATI doesn't even have Linux drivers......

The only time Nvidia has had problems with drivers was when Vista came out and they had just rolled out their DX10 cards. Whereas ATI has always had a history of delivering subpar drivers. Hell they've been known to release products with beta drivers in the box and no update in sight for a month or two. While they have gotten a lot better at it in recent memory Nvidia still has a lot better quality control when it comes to drivers.

 

[jnmfox]

Ohh so I guess ATI linux drivers are better than Nvidia. Ohh wait ATI doesn't even have Linux drivers......

You sure about that...
http://ati.amd.com/products/catalyst/linux.html

The only time Nvidia has had problems with drivers was when Vista came out and they had just rolled out their DX10 cards. Whereas ATI has always had a history of delivering subpar drivers. Hell they've been known to release products with beta drivers in the box and no update in sight for a month or two. While they have gotten a lot better at it in recent memory Nvidia still has a lot better quality control when it comes to drivers.

It is a lot easier to have better quality control when you only release drivers once in a blue moon. Like it said it is difficult comparing drivers for video cards, both have their pluses and minuses, just because you like one better doesn't mean it is superior.

 

[gus6464]

You sure about that...
http://ati.amd.com/products/catalyst/linux.html

Have you ever tried installing ATI drivers on a linux system? Even on an easier debian or rpm based system like Ubuntu or Fedora video acceleration never works. Just do a google search for "ati linux drivers" and you will see what I am talking about. Even an Intel GMA950 system will outperform an ATI system in a 3D desktop environment like Compiz.

 

[Rickster71]

Superior drivers? According to who? ATI/AMD has a monthly driver release schedule, much better than what I get from nVidia for my card.

Saying one company's drivers are better than another is like saying one company's speakers are better than another.

They have always taken turns at the top spot, as far as cards go.
ATI needs a better way to implement their drivers.
Unless ATI changed something lately; the old drivers must be uninstalled first, before you can update to the new driver.
nVidia has a much simpler 'unified driver' system.