Another vinyl post

[3db]

Yes, but will you also report so enthusiastically when this blip becomes another failed attempt to have a long term life of an increasing trend?

Sure I will. Why wouldn't I?

 

[gus6464]

Definitely not. It doesn't matter if you play a CD 100 times or 100,000 times, it will never show even the most miniscule signs of wear. "Perfect Sound Forever" is more than just a motto, it is the truth.

Yeah I think you should read this before you start spouting crap you know nothing about.

http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library/article.aspx?article=2131

That is why there are archival grade discs. Temperature and light heavily weight on the life span of a compact disc.

 

[croseiv]

That "warmth" is a form of distortion.

Actually, I would attribute it more to the high frequency roll-off of the older analogue recordings. Still, I like the sound very much.

 

[3db]

Actually, I would attribute it more to the high frequency roll-off of the older analogue recordings. Still, I like the sound very much.

How much roll-ff is there. Vinyl covers 20Hz to 20Khz spectrum. The reason I ask is that I have an album by the Payola's where the last minute of playing or so consists of cymbal smashes. The difference in sound between the different symbols is quite apparent and the shimmering decay of these cymbals last so long. It really is an amazing recording.

 

[3db]

Yeah I think you should read this before you start spouting crap you know nothing about.

http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library/article.aspx?article=2131

That is why there are archival grade discs. Temperature and light heavily weight on the life span of a compact disc.

I've been very careful in handling the CDs/DVDs I own and have always stored them in their jewel cases. I figured that the technology was still to new to say that the medium was indestructable. So far so good. I haven't lost a CD-R yet and I started using them about 5 to 6 years ago.

Same with my vinyl. I alwasy been careful with it and even the albums I've played alot stil sound fantastic without a hint of wear or degeradation.

Bottom line is.. Look after the stuff you own and it will last you a lifetime. (from the format context only )

 

[Pyrrho]

I think it is time to remind people of an ongoing article about the subject of this thread:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/features/technical-topics/vinyl-vs.-cd---a-running-commentary.html


Here is a rather interesting page of it:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/features/technical-topics/vinyl-vs.-cd---a-running-commentary_4.html

It is funny that people who bash Bose 901 speakers for needing equalization to achieve a reasonably flat frequency response don't seem to bash LPs for needing equalization to achieve a reasonably flat frequency response.

An interesting quote from the above link:

Now, when the RIAA pre-emphasis curve is applied at recording, and then the de-emphasis curve is applied at playback, the phase shift should cancel out and you end up with a proper phase relationship throughout the audible spectrum. Right? Well, that would be fine if all the recording systems applied the RIAA pre-emphasis curve perfectly, and all our phono stages applied the RIAA de-emphasis curve perfectly.

Guess what? Nothing is perfect out there.

So, we end up with LPs and phono stages that deliver a sound with varying amounts of phase shift in all areas of the audible spectrum, and I feel that this is one of the defining characteristics of the analog LP sound. It delivers a soundstage that is much different than what you would hear from a CD where such EQ curves are not applied.

And, it's very appealing.

And another interesting page of the article, followed by some interesting quotes:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/features/technical-topics/vinyl-vs.-cd---a-running-commentary_7.html

And . . . (drum roll) . . . here is what you have been waiting for: The Vinyl Results.

At 1 kHz, 0 dB, distortion was 7%. "Wow, that's a lot of distortion," you say. You bet it is, but notice that it is nearly all second order. Also, the noise level contributes to this high number. At best, the noise is 70 dB below the signal, whereas with the CD test, it is more than 100 dB lower.

For 10 kHz, I kept the 400 ohm cartridge load. THD+N was a very high 20%, but again, the noise level contributes significantly to the number. Also, this particular track was recorded at - 20 dB, so noise is a larger proportion of the resulting signal than the 1 kHz tracks that were recorded at 0 dB. Notice that the only visible distortion peak is second order.

So, what can we say at this point? It seems to me - and this is with some of the very best hi-fi components in the world - that one of the most significant reasons vinyl aficionados love the LP sound is that the distortion is very, very much like that in Pure Class A triode single-ended tube amplifiers. There is a lot of distortion, but it is just about entirely second order (even-ordered), which is euphonic, meaning that it is pleasing to the ears. This distortion profile occurs in part because the noise floor masks the higher order harmonics. So, the listener hears primarily the second order harmonics, maybe a bit of third, fourth, and fifth, depending on settings, but the really nasty sounding high order harmonics are covered up by the noise floor. You will give up some low level detail that gets buried in all that noise, but the ultimate sound is very appealing. The high level of second order harmonic distortion "enriches" the sound. It is not "accuracy", and purists will say it is not "high fidelity", but it certainly feels good. What else can I say?

If you like lots of second order distortion, you might enjoy the combination of a turntable with tube amplification. But if you want as little distortion as possible, you probably want a digital recording with solid state electronics.

 

[3db]

Thanks Pyro for all the work but despite all of its limitations, I along with millions of others enjoy the sound of vinyl. All the numbers thrown against vinylwill not sway me from enjoying it. To me it sounds better.

As far as live music goes, I find most concerts sound like crap because either the music is playing way too loud or the acoustic limitations of the venue. Talk about distortion of live concert when reflective waves interfere with the primary waves cause all kinds of phase and amplitude distortion.

Also, vinyl gives me a sense of involvement that CD can never do.

 

[Brett A]

I think it is time to remind people of an ongoing article about the subject of this thread:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/features/technical-topics/vinyl-vs.-cd---a-running-commentary.html

Here is a rather interesting page of it:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/features/technical-topics/vinyl-vs.-cd---a-running-commentary_4.html

It is funny that people who bash Bose 901 speakers for needing equalization to achieve a reasonably flat frequency response don't seem to bash LPs for needing equalization to achieve a reasonably flat frequency response.

An interesting quote from the above link:And another interesting page of the rticle, followed by some interesting quotes:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/features/technical-topics/vinyl-vs.-cd---a-running-commentary_7.html

Thanks for the great links. If these statements are true, they are the closest thing to a scientific explanation I've come across to explain why so many of us love vinyl. I'll sacrifice a little accuracy for great sound. Stereos are entertainment systems. The better they entertain us, the better they are.

If you like lots of second order distortion, you might enjoy the combination of a turntable with tube amplification. But if you want as little distortion as possible, you probably want a digital recording with solid state electronics.

I'm going to assume this last statement was not an attempt to piss on this thread. We've been doing so well so far.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I'm going to assume this last statement was not an attempt to piss on this thread. We've been doing so well so far.

I am fairly sure that is not his intention but an option to increase enjoyment with a tube amp added to a TT

 

[Brett A]

I am fairly sure that is not his intention but an option to increase enjoyment with a tube amp added to a TT

Thanks, It's hard to tell sometimes when all you have to go on is typing.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Thanks, It's hard to tell sometimes when all you have to go on is typing.

That's right, and is hard to tell.

 

[gus6464]

If you like lots of second order distortion, you might enjoy the combination of a turntable with tube amplification. But if you want as little distortion as possible, you probably want a digital recording with solid state electronics.

I have a 20 year old vinyl box set of Springsteen live with E Street band and it totally destroys anything I have on CD of the same. And my vinyl setup is anything but high end at all. (I have a tube phono preamp as well )

 

[chadnliz]

There are scores of LP's that trump digital, there are many that dont and infact sound worse but having the best of both worlds is the ultimate enjoyment.

 

[gus6464]

There are scores of LP's that trump digital, there are many that dont and infact sound worse but having the best of both worlds is the ultimate enjoyment.

Yeah but according to some people in here an LP trumping a CD is just impossible.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yeah but according to some people in here an LP trumping a CD is just impossible.

I don't think that has been the general flavor. I think the issue is can a good CD outperform the best vinyl pressing. The answer clearly is yes! Are there remasters of LP's that are worse in the CD version, certainly. I think this is mostly true in the pop world. I have a few CDs that are worse than the LP's in my collection.

However I agree with chadnilz that having the best of both worlds is almost the ultimate, having digital, vinyl, 78 shellacs and reel to reel is the real deal!

 

[Rickster71]

Dynamic Comparison of LPs vs. CDs - Part 4
I found a link here on Audioholics; I just skimmed over it, sounds interesting.
http://www.audioholics.com/education/audio-formats-technology/dynamic-comparison-of-lps-vs-cds-part-4
Back when I was into LP's I just couldn't handle the pops and clicks.
So, I was wondering, how do you guys deal?
It just sucked the pleasure out of it for me back then.
I was the same way when I purchased an amp. I'd turn up the volume, with no input or AUX selected;
If I heard any background noise, I wouldn't buy that amp.
That was my none scientific in store test.

 

[gus6464]

Dynamic Comparison of LPs vs. CDs - Part 4
I found a link here on Audioholics; I just skimmed over it, sounds interesting.
http://www.audioholics.com/education/audio-formats-technology/dynamic-comparison-of-lps-vs-cds-part-4
Back when I was into LP's I just couldn't handle the pops and clicks.
So, I was wondering, how do you guys deal?
It just sucked the pleasure out of it for me back then.
I was the same way when I purchased an amp. I'd turn up the volume, with no input or AUX selected;
If I heard any background noise, I wouldn't buy that amp.
That was my none scientific in store test.

On my setup I only hear pops on the oldest LPs which haven't really been taken care of. On most of them though I never notice the pops but your cartridge's tracking ability has a lot to do with it.

 

[chadnliz]

I recently posted a opinion/question over at Audiogon wondering if it makes sense to pay the premium Vinyl charges for new popular music that is recorded loud and compressed, seeing how the CD is simpler than I question buying new Vinyl before I hear how it was recorded. Older titles are in general going to sound better on LP so there is still a huge market and library worth exploring. Aslong as new Vinyl demands $30.00 I will choose albums very carefully and purchase the CD of the majority of inferior recordings that plague us all.

 

[gus6464]

I recently posted a opinion/question over at Audiogon wondering if it makes sense to pay the premium Vinyl charges for new popular music that is recorded loud and compressed, seeing how the CD is simpler than I question buying new Vinyl before I hear how it was recorded. Older titles are in general going to sound better on LP so there is still a huge market and library worth exploring. Aslong as new Vinyl demands $30.00 I will choose albums very carefully and purchase the CD of the majority of inferior recordings that plague us all.

I mostly get all my vinyl used from half price books or audiogon. Sometimes there will be something new that I want but 20 bucks is the most I will pay.

 

[Brett A]

On my setup I only hear pops on the oldest LPs which haven't really been taken care of. On most of them though I never notice the pops but your cartridge's tracking ability has a lot to do with it.

Same here. I buy both new and used LPs. New ones play very quietly, with the passages between tracks emitting only the slightest amount of friction sound that can only be heard from the listening seat at my highest listening volumes---then I really have to listen for it, it doesn't distract.

With the older $0.50-$2 flea market albums (the ones I bother to buy), I get occasional clicks (a few per side) which are not prohibitive, but some of these old LPs rumble. That I have less tolerance for.