Shame on you Denon!

[Pyrrho]

I disagree... see my post above when I simply Googled "should I buy expensive cables."

I maintain that any person who looks at $25 cable and the looks next to it and sees a $450 cable of the same variety... AND BUYS THE $450 cable without any research is not a consumer deserving of protection nor sympathy.

And would you feel differently about this if on the packaging of the $450 cable there was a claim that it resulted in better sound than the less expensive one? Does lying to the consumer mean nothing to you? Ever hear of fraud? Or do you think fraud should be legal and considered okay?

Sure, people should research things as much as they reasonably can before they make purchases. But it is ridiculous to expect that everyone is going to be able to be an expert on everything, and it is ridiculous to say it is simply their own fault for being ignorant when they are lied to both by the company making the product and the salespeople who are making a bigger commission on the more expensive product. There is way too much BS in audio to expect that the average person is going to be able to escape it all. Quite simply, lies in marketing should be prosecuted vigorously as fraud, so that people would not have to become experts on everything in order to avoid being suckered. Of course, no one ever can become an expert on everything, so most people get suckered with some regularity.

If false advertising claims were adequately punished, I would agree with you in saying that being suckered would then be the person's own fault. But since false advertising claims obviously are not vigorously punished, people are left with mountains of misinformation to sort through. So I think people who are cheated are deserving of sympathy.

 

[mazersteven]

My current receiver is a Denon, and up until now they would have had the inside track on my next purchase, but not now.

Why are they not aloud to make money? What is the difference between asking $500 for a cable, and the mark-up on furniture, jewelry, other audio gear?

Do you not think that the mark-up in electronics isn't huge?

 

[zhimbo]

Why are they not aloud to make money? What is the difference between asking $500 for a cable, and the mark-up on furniture, jewelry, other audio gear?

Do you not think that the mark-up in electronics isn't huge?

Of course they're allowed to make money. Are you suggesting that they haven't before this cable was introduced?

"Mark up" usually refers to what retailers add to the wholesale price. That's there so that retailers stay in business, and often seems large to people unfamiliar with running a retail business, but is usually just enough to keep a business profitable (with exceptions one way or another, of course).

This isn't "mark up". This is a ridiculous MSRP for no performance benefit, just the illusion of benefit.

Do you really think this is no different from the MSRP of a $500 receiver?

 

[itschris]

And would you feel differently about this if on the packaging of the $450 cable there was a claim that it resulted in better sound than the less expensive one? Does lying to the consumer mean nothing to you? Ever hear of fraud? Or do you think fraud should be legal and considered okay?

Sure, people should research things as much as they reasonably can before they make purchases. But it is ridiculous to expect that everyone is going to be able to be an expert on everything, and it is ridiculous to say it is simply their own fault for being ignorant when they are lied to both by the company making the product and the salespeople who are making a bigger commission on the more expensive product. There is way too much BS in audio to expect that the average person is going to be able to escape it all. Quite simply, lies in marketing should be prosecuted vigorously as fraud, so that people would not have to become experts on everything in order to avoid being suckered. Of course, no one ever can become an expert on everything, so most people get suckered with some regularity.

If false advertising claims were adequately punished, I would agree with you in saying that being suckered would then be the person's own fault. But since false advertising claims obviously are not vigorously punished, people are left with mountains of misinformation to sort through. So I think people who are cheated are deserving of sympathy.

You don't have to be an expert at anything to make common sense purchases. If you go to the store to buy a toaster and there's one sitting on the shelf for $20 and the one on the fancy display next to it is selling for $250 with this long list of features and that supposedly toasts your bagel more evenly, and you just go, "hmmmm... okay... " and grab the $250 toaster... then you're just a dumbass who deserves no pity from me or anyone else if you find that toaster is no better than the $10 broken one you tried to replace. Now, if you like the way it looks, want that brand, or feel you'd like to have that toaster for whatever reason... by all means... you should buy it and no one should say anything about it, nor should anyone claim that I shouldn't even have the chance to buy it. I just bought a new Wustoff knife set that cost me $1800. I have 2 sets of Wustoff Grand Prix's already, but wanted their new Ikon set. If you read the literature, it says the blade is better, the steel has gone through this process, this technology... blah, blah, blah. I'm a serious culinary hobbiest and I can tell you that the new knives work no better than my other Wustoff's. Did I get ripped off? Of course not. I wanted them. Period.

There's nothing wrong with anyone buying a cable from Monster or whoever. It's a good cable that you can get at just about any store. Part of the extra cost is convenience. Is it the smartest decision? Probably not, but stop acting as if all these companies are just preying on the poor consumer who just doesn't have a chance.

There are far too many safety nets for stupidity in our society already. Now we're going to start telling companies they can't sell an expensive cable to someone who wants it?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Maybe I'm missing the point of all this, but we are NOT talking about the usual interconnect cables, HDMI cables, Speaker cables, Optical/Coaxial cables here. Right? Well, okay, so what?

We are talking about a very specialized D-Link cable which can ONLY be used between 2 Denon products, like between the $3,800 Denon DVD-5910CI and the $7,000 Denon AVP-A1HDCI. Am I wrong on this?

Sure, there is nothing wrong with using the thin-looking free D-Link cable that comes with the Denon players. But for those who have $20,000 of Denon on the rack, they might prefer the $500 COOLER-looking D-Link cable.

This $500 (OVERPRICED) D-Link cable will only be sold to the crazy hardcore Denon people, not the general population, right?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Now we're going to start telling companies they can't sell an expensive cable to someone who wants it?

Exactly.

Call me crazy, but I actually want Denon to sell $6,000 integrated amps that has absolutely no features (no tones, no balance, etc.), crazy amount of power (2,000 watts into 4 ohms) and crazy great specs (THD 0.0001%, Crosstalk -140dB, SNR 130dB, F.R. 5 Hz - 200 kHz +/- 0.00dB).

If they did that, there would be another thread saying "Shame on Denon for making ridiculously overpriced integrated amps".

 

[itschris]

Yeah, I mean the way people are getting all wadded up about this baffles me. Maybe everyone would be happy if the government just put a specification for every product and each company could only build the product to that exact specification and sell it for the agreed upon price. There you go... problem solved.

Why don't people get pissed about Acapella speakers or any other speaker selling for over $100K. Where's the outrage?

Whatever, I will respectfully bow out from here. I certainly respect everyone's opinion even though it may drastically differ with mine. That's what makes discussion fun. Besides how interesting would it be if we all agreed about everything and just blew sunshine up everyone's skirt all day long?

 

[Pyrrho]

You don't have to be an expert at anything to make common sense purchases. If you go to the store to buy a toaster and there's one sitting on the shelf for $20 and the one on the fancy display next to it is selling for $250 with this long list of features and that supposedly toasts your bagel more evenly, and you just go, "hmmmm... okay... " and grab the $250 toaster... then you're just a dumbass who deserves no pity from me or anyone else if you find that toaster is no better than the $10 broken one you tried to replace. Now, if you like the way it looks, want that brand, or feel you'd like to have that toaster for whatever reason... by all means... you should buy it and no one should say anything about it, nor should anyone claim that I shouldn't even have the chance to buy it. I just bought a new Wustoff knife set that cost me $1800. I have 2 sets of Wustoff Grand Prix's already, but wanted their new Ikon set. If you read the literature, it says the blade is better, the steel has gone through this process, this technology... blah, blah, blah. I'm a serious culinary hobbiest and I can tell you that the new knives work no better than my other Wustoff's. Did I get ripped off? Of course not. I wanted them. Period.

There's nothing wrong with anyone buying a cable from Monster or whoever. It's a good cable that you can get at just about any store. Part of the extra cost is convenience. Is it the smartest decision? Probably not, but stop acting as if all these companies are just preying on the poor consumer who just doesn't have a chance.

There are far too many safety nets for stupidity in our society already. Now we're going to start telling companies they can't sell an expensive cable to someone who wants it?

No, absolutely no one is saying that people can't sell or buy expensive cables. If that is what you think, you have not been reading carefully enough.

What people are objecting to is lying about products. This has NOTHING WHATEVER to do with price.

What you appear to be saying, though you have not directly said it, is that you regard fraud and misrepresentation as okay, and if someone is conned, it is their own fault for being stupid enough to believe what they have been told. If this is not your position, then please tell us what your opinion is of a situation in which a consumer has been lied to regarding a product he or she purchases. Is this purchase the fault of the consumer, the advertiser/seller, or both? So far, you appear to be saying the consumer is always at fault no matter what the consumer has been told. But if that is not your position, please say so now.

 

[Matt34]

This is from the offical Denon product description of the cable...

"Denon's 1.5 meter (59 in.) ultra premium Denon Link cable was designed for the audio enthusiast. Made from high purity copper wire and high performance connection parts, the AK-DL1 will bring out all the nuances in digital audio reproduction from any of our Denon DVD players with the Denon Link feature. Attention to detail when building this cable was used by employing high quality insulation, tin-bearing alloy shielding and woven jacketing to reduce vibration and to add durability. Additionally, signal directional markings are provided for optimum signal transfer. Rounded plug levers help prevent breakage."

No where do I see where it says it will sound better than another cable. Yeah there is the typical fluff and the directional markings are a complete gimmick but if you don't have the common sense to do five minutes of comparative shopping.....well as Pyrrho's sig says, "A fool and his money are soon parted." Interesting is your stance on this subject with a sig like that.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My guess is that 99% of the population will NOT even be looking at this Denon-Link cable because they don't even have a Denon SACD/DVD-A player. The cheapest Denon SACD player to have D-Link is the $850 DVD-2930CI.

And the 1% of the population that do have a Denon SACD/DVD-A w/ D-Link are pretty educated.

Some of us are more sympathetic towards Denon than others.

But, let's all agree on ONE THING.

NONE of US on this forum will be buying this D-Link cable or any other cable that costs $500 or more unless we win the lottery or inherit some serious money.

 

[itschris]

"Lying" can be very subjective. I'm sure you'll find quite a few people with expensive cables who will say that they can in fact hear a cumlative difference. I have some expensive cables, but I'm not one of those people, but at the same time, I can't say with certainty that someone with super high end equipment strung with super "high end" cables (using that term loosely) cannot. Since I don't really care all that much, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. If they believe they hear the difference, maybe that's just as good. I don't know and I don't really care all that much about why people like what they like and spend what they do and I try not to judge, though in some cases I certainly do and will.

I don't know what someone else can hear. Perhaps the guys at Denon see that on some graph that their cable performs better in some odd way. If that in turn makes people feel or justify that the cable is better, than let people buy it.

Is B&W lying when they say their speakers are better than others, that it creates "truer" music? I don't know. Do you? Some here say their speakers suck... so how can they say it's better in any way? Is it fraud? If you can be such a formidable judge on such things, you really ought to be on a crusade because there's a lot worse consumer fraud going on then someone wanting to by expensive cables.

Pyrrho, believe me when I tell you that I don't like fraud, nor do I stand for it in any way as a consumer. I'm one of those guys who writes letters and calls local tv stations when I feel wronged or see unjust actions. I just disagree with your premise on this one. I think there are better trees to bark up then this one... that's all.

 

[Brett A]

Here's what i have done. I go to my local hifi shop. I take home loaner cables that I usually know little or nothing about and I listen to them. I then make a decision by asking myself "Is this sound worth $X?" If it is, I've got a new cable, if not, I return the loaner and thank then for letting me have it for a while.

I don't buy anything -including cables- before I hear them. And I don't pay any attention to marketing. (I don't think I could find any marketing for the cables I own anyway)

Now, I know not everyone has access to a retail shop that loans equipment before you buy, but many online retailers have return policies.

As for Denon's practices, they can ask whatever the market will bear for their cables. I think the crazy part is that someone would spend $450 on something they haven't heard yet. That's like buying a car without driving it first.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

As for Denon's practices, they can ask whatever the market will bear for their cables. I think the crazy part is that someone would spend $450 on something they haven't heard yet. That's like buying a car without driving it first.

Don't you think it's all relative to our financial status?

I mean if it's "pocket change" to us, we would not think it's crazy at all.

 

[MDS]

Don't you think it's all relative to our financial status?

I mean if it's "pocket change" to us, we would not think it's crazy at all.

That's an interesting point, but one I have trouble with. People often say somethihg like 'well if you're Bill Gates it really doesn't matter'. News Flash...you don't get rich by spending your money. I'm not Bill Gates but I could afford $500 for a cable. The problem is I don't see the value proposition. I'll gladly pay a few bucks more over a competitors price if I like the looks, the fit of the connectors, or some other seemingly meaningless differentiating factor (for example I don't like Acoustic Research cables simply because they are blue and would pay a few bucks more for the equivalent cable that is not blue), but I absolutely will not buy something just because 'I can afford it' - that is showing off or keeping up with the joneses for no good reason. Pretty soon you will no longer be able to afford all this stuff if you waste your money on stuff of dubious value.

 

[markw]

They're not the first, nor will they be the last, to employ the Barnum effect.

Actually, I don't think anyone can find fault with the description. And, I'm sure it'll perform exactly as promised.

Of course, that description fits a multitude of similar cables that sell for a much lower price. Puffery being what it is, they are under no obligation to maket hat point when hawking their wares.

But, I'll bet there are some that will spring for it simply based on it's looks, the gee-whiz description, Denon's name, and reputation. And, just like Bose and Monster customers, I'm sure they will be happy as a clam at high tide when it performs exactly as described!

Yep. there's one born every minute. That's what keeps the marginal factions of this hobby (and others) in kibbles and bits.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Oh, yes, the Barnum Effect resurrected

 

[mtrycrafts]

This is from the offical Denon product description of the cable...

"...the AK-DL1 will bring out all the nuances in digital audio reproduction from any of our Denon DVD players with the Denon Link feature. ... Additionally, signal directional markings are provided for optimum signal transfer. ."

No where do I see where it says it will sound better than another cable. Yeah there is the typical fluff and the directional markings are a complete gimmick ....

I would say that the implication with that first part can easily be construed to mean 'better sound reproduction.' And the latter, is as you indicated but more, as they are crossing over to the voodoo land.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...But, let's all agree on ONE THING.

NONE of US on this forum will be buying this D-Link cable or any other cable that costs $500 or more unless we win the lottery or inherit some serious money.

Yes, let's agree on this

 

[Brett A]

And the latter, is as you indicated but more, as they are crossing over to the voodoo land.

Yeah, the directional cable comment is an indication of skulduggery (good word eh?) Only because it implies that the signal will benefit by traveling in one direction and not the other. My understanding of arrows on cables is that they usually point to the end that the shield drains to. A feature that does not have to do with signal path.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... My understanding of arrows on cables is that they usually point to the end that the shield drains to. A feature that does not have to do with signal path.

Yes, that is how it is applied in an interconnect but only if the shield is not also the signal carrying wire as it is grounded on one side only.
But, unless you can dissect the meaning your imagination is the limit what they mean.