Another vinyl post

[3db]

First of, thanks for all the work and the graphs!! I'll have to study them.

I think the point is that linear errors are probably audible with vinyl recordings, and this could be verified in properly controlled double-blind tests. An example test could be to compare the original master recording to the vinyl issue of that recording and see if there is a difference. Of course, this would not be sufficient to identify whether the difference was due to a linear error.

You might be able to check the audibility of the linear errors of vinyl records using a digital filter to replicate the typical frequency response deviations of vinyl records. Dr Floyd Toole's work on loudspeakers suggests to me that the ear may be fairly sensitive to these errors, e.g., a loudspeaker resonance with a Q = 1 is audible on some material at only 0.3 dB [1].

Going back to nonlinear errors, vinyl does introduce harmonic distortion at potentially audible levels [2], as I recall typically 1 % or greater [3]. Noise is potentially audible.]

I read from previous posts here that this harmonic distortion are even orderd harmonics and thats why the vinyls sounds "warmer" than CDs. My question is, how does this get introduced? Doesn't all sound get converted into electrical from the mic? At what point in this process does it get introduced?

Vinyl also has a limited dynamic range and suffers greater distortion at signal peaks. I'm afraid that I don't have any references for this. In regards to bass performance, presumably you would need to compare a master recording with the vinyl release to confirm a difference in sound quality. I suspect the majority of recordings may not suffer drastically from a bass cutoff since most do not contain much information below 30 Hz or so.

I know that vinyl lacks dynamic range compared to vinyl. But I'm surprised to hear that signal peaks on vinyl is distorted because the engineers who know vinyl know of its limitations and I thought ensured that these signal levels would not be high enough to introduce distortion.

 

[3db]

I don't doubt that CD is a more accurate medium but its unfortunate that alot of the recording engineers really do not take advantage of this medium's capability.

I have some albums like Pink Floyd's The Wall that I much prefer on vinyl over its CD brethren. Most of my classical music also falls into the vinyl camp as far as preference goes. It just sounds less analytical to me (for lack of a better description).

My intention of starting this thread was not to go into this senseless debate over and over again. I love the way vinyl sounds despite all of its inaccuracies. I also like the feeling of being more involved with my setup when it comes to vinyl, having to clean each lp before playing it, being able to see the artwork without having to power up a computer.

Everytime I post an article about vinyl, alot of the CD stormtroopers come charging in and begin their disotation of the superioty of CD vs vinyl and visa versa . I really good give a rats *** what's technically more accurate. I know what I prefer and most times its vinyl.

I only post these article because I find the trend of the growing popularity of vinyl interesting.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Your explanation of the cutting floor is way out in left field. Nothing is left on the floor. The digitization of the analog signal from the mic will be recreated perfectly to the original signal.

Exactly. This is the fact that those who try to find flaws in the CD format fail to understand. The Redbook encoding/decoding sceme works. There is no signal loss whatsoever. The output of a CD player and the input at the microphone are indistinguishable within the audible frequency range. This cannot be said of any analog recording medium.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Its curious though that flawless sound is not always perceived as being better, hence the endless debate of vinyl vs digital.

I always thought it was a silly debate. CD does not merely sound better, it sounds obviously, dramatically better (not a subtle improvement at all.)
Switching from vinyl to CD was easily the biggest single upgrade I have ever made to any system.

 

[Pyrrho]

The very metrics we choose to base our 'facts' on are based on preference. I think if we were to lay out metrics we agree on, no one could argue about the measurements. But I somehow think the vinyl v. digital arguers are indeed not talking about the same metrics.

But at it's essence, it is not about measurements. They are merely tools to get us to some end---in this case, sense pleasure in the form of sound (and perhaps sense pleasure in the form of thought as well).

I think when people talk about the superiority of vinyl, they can only be expressing an opinion, it happens to be an opinion that does not regard some of the common measurements.

When people talk about he superiority of digital, they too can only be expressing an opinion, it happens to be an opinion that does regard many of the commonly chosen measurements.

In the abstract, the fact is, it cannot be a fact that digital is superior, it is simply another opinion.

That depends upon what one means by "superior". If one means flatter frequency response, lower distortion, "more accurate", etc., then it is not simply another opinion, but a matter of fact. If, however, "superior" is used to mean "sounds subjectively better", then you are right, it is purely a matter of opinion. Very often, people use the term both ways in the same post, and it is the former way that is an appropriate subject of criticism.

 

[Pyrrho]

I always thought it was a silly debate. CD does not merely sound better, it sounds obviously, dramatically better (not a subtle improvement at all.)
Switching from vinyl to CD was easily the biggest single upgrade I have ever made to any system.

I think you are being unfair to vinyl lovers for a couple of reasons. First, most people don't listen to much live music, so their idea of what is good is based upon listening to recordings. Consequently, any change from the "standard", whatever that might be, is likely to be perceived by some as inferior. Second, when old LPs were originally mastered, there was no such thing as digital. So when CDs came out, they were remastered for CD. A different mastering process can produce quite different results, particularly if they decided to remix from the original multi-track tapes (if the original was multi-track tapes). So, a guitar or whatever could be brought forward more in the mix, or put more in the background. Additionally, with some recordings, distortion is part of the sound. I remember preferring a Sex Pistols LP to the CD release, because the CD sounded less distorted. The music was created with the idea that it would be on an LP, with all the distortion and limitations that that entails (which may or may not have been an intended component of the sound). And, with some old recordings, the originals were not stored properly, so some CDs were mastered from an inferior source (this, by the way, is not at all uncommon). So, without LPs being in any way superior to CDs as a source, some LPs may sound better than their CD counterparts. The "better" being the result of either a less desirable mix, or due to damage to the original master recording such that it is worse than an LP copy that was made when the original master was pristine. The mistake, of course, is to attribute the superiority of a particular recording to the format when, in fact, many differences are due to other matters, like those mentioned above. When listening to different mixes, that cannot possibly be a fair test of the media itself.

I do agree, however, that an LP made from a master tape can never sound precisely like the master tape; a CD is going to recreate the sound more precisely, if made equally competently from the same tape in the same condition (i.e., not years later, after the tape starts noticeable decay).

 

[Brett A]

I always thought it was a silly debate. CD does not merely sound better, it sounds obviously, dramatically better (not a subtle improvement at all.)
Switching from vinyl to CD was easily the biggest single upgrade I have ever made to any system.

Still, this is an opinion. A statement of preference. I find my own preference changes. Currently, I'm on a vinyl kick. I get a little disappointed when I have to listen to a CD to hear the music I'm into. And i gravitate toward titles I have on LP (I'm even re-purchasing some of my CDs on LP.). I expect this will eventually change and I'll turn my preference back toward the sound of CDs for a while and so on...

No one can debate that CDs measure better than vinyl by popular metrics, yet there seems to be something more to it. I don't think the masses who perceive vinyl to be the better medium are just working hard to fool themselves--there's no reason to do this. No one is debating that they sound different. Lots of folks prefer vinyl, and from a subjective view (by definition, that's all a view can be anyway), consider it the superior medium.

So, I think considering the popularity and tenacity of the LP format and the fact it's been so solidly embraced by the people in the highest stratus of home audio reproduction, a more useful question would be "What's going on here?" These people are not idiots or fools or victims or any other unkind name you might be inclined to attach. (To so simply label and disregard such a large and diverse group would be the easy way out). There's a lot of people at this forum who really value science. I think you'd appreciate the challenge of finding out what isn't being measured that accounts for this phenomenon and how do we begin to measure it?

 

[3db]

I always thought it was a silly debate. CD does not merely sound better, it sounds obviously, dramatically better (not a subtle improvement at all.)
Switching from vinyl to CD was easily the biggest single upgrade I have ever made to any system.

Thats just the storm trooper mentality I'm talking about. I'm glad its working out for you. Honestly. But I'm not totally satisified with the sound of CDs nor are millions of others who have been in vinyl or are exploring it for the 1st time.

Your opinion is just that and it works for you. But for me, I find the total opposite to be true. Doesn't make one another wrong or right. Just a difference of opinions and preferences.

 

[chadnliz]

Dont forget that those who trash Vinyl most likely had a crap table hooked up to a crap reciever with a crap cartridge that wasnt set up properly and didnt clean records correctly so no wonder it sounds better to them.It is much easier to get good sound from most any CD player but if you invest a bit of cash, cleaning and care to Vinyl you quickly see how much warmer, pleasing and less fatigueing Vinyl often is.

 

[Rickster71]

The part of this discussion I find most interesting is as follows:
I know there are very intelligent people on this forum. (I don't profess to be one of them)
With that being said, allow me to set up the following.

Let's say for discussion purposes, that CD's and LP's are equal in sound reproduction when we take them home from the store.

Here is where things change; and the 800 lb. gorilla comes in. The one that no one mentions.
From the first playing, the LP will gradually wear out. Any two surfaces that come into contact the way an LP and a diamond stylus do, will wear out. It will wear slowly like the soles on a pair of shoes.
The same frictional wear takes place with reel to reel, and cassette players, between the tape and heads.
It's simply the laws of physics.

 

[Brett A]

The part of this discussion I find most interesting is as follows:
I know there are very intelligent people on this forum. (I don't profess to be one of them)
With that being said, allow me to set up the following.

Let's say for discussion purposes, that CD's and LP's are equal in sound reproduction when we take them home from the store.

Here is where things change; and the 800 lb. gorilla comes in. The one that no one mentions.
From the first playing, the LP will gradually wear out. Any two surfaces that come into contact the way an LP and a diamond stylus do, will wear out. It will wear slowly like the soles on a pair of shoes.
The same frictional wear takes place with reel to reel, and cassette players, between the tape and heads.
It's simply the laws of physics.

Thats true of CDs too. They deteriorate with time. That's why CDRs can be purchased in archival grades.

I don't know about the comparative degradation rates, though. They may be negligible. Both the CDs and LPs I have from the mid 80's still sound good-as-new. A properly set up TT with a cartridge of modest quality would take a very long time to wear out a record; maybe longer than my adult life. (In other words, longer than the CD format will be around.---Sorry, I had to throw that in)

 

[mtrycrafts]

Thats true of CDs too. They deteriorate with time.

You mean if you play that CD a 100 times in say a month, or a year, the 100s playing will be deteriorated compared to the first?

 

[mtrycrafts]

I only post these article because I find the trend of the growing popularity of vinyl interesting.

Yes, but will you also report so enthusiastically when this blip becomes another failed attempt to have a long term life of an increasing trend?

 

[Rickster71]

Thats true of CDs too. They deteriorate with time. That's why CDRs can be purchased in archival grades.

I don't know about the comparative degradation rates, though. They may be negligible. Both the CDs and LPs I have from the mid 80's still sound good-as-new. A properly set up TT with a cartridge of modest quality would take a very long time to wear out a record; maybe longer than my adult life. (In other words, longer than the CD format will be around.---Sorry, I had to throw that in)

That's an apples / oranges comparison. I was talking to the physical wear, due to friction.
That type does not happen with CD's.
I don't mean wear, that would have the stylus cut the LP in half. I mean all the subtle highs being worn off the groove.

If we switch gears, and address deterioration; both types of media succumbs.
Though, as you pointed out; archival grade media solves that problem for the CD.

 

[Rickster71]

Hey Brett, I do like your sig!
"Rational subjectivist trying to figure out what all the fuss is about."

 

[mtrycrafts]

Dont forget that those who trash Vinyl most likely had a crap table hooked up to a crap reciever with a crap cartridge that wasnt set up properly and didnt clean records correctly so no wonder it sounds better to them.It is much easier to get good sound from most any CD player but if you invest a bit of cash, cleaning and care to Vinyl you quickly see how much warmer, pleasing and less fatigueing Vinyl often is.

Well, that first part is sheer speculation, right?

The second part is also debatable as to what is pleasing, warmer and non fatiguing. I wonder if an orchestra is warm and non fatiguing for you after a bit?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Hey Brett, I do like your sig!
"Rational subjectivist trying to figure out what all the fuss is about."

Yes, interesting At least some are trying to figure it out while others don't even try.

 

[Brett A]

That's an apples / oranges comparison.

You're right. I admit I was reaching a bit there. I think I was just trying to communicate that in my experience LP wear is not a prohibitive issue.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

You mean if you play that CD a 100 times in say a month, or a year, the 100s playing will be deteriorated compared to the first?

Definitely not. It doesn't matter if you play a CD 100 times or 100,000 times, it will never show even the most miniscule signs of wear. "Perfect Sound Forever" is more than just a motto, it is the truth.

 

[Rickster71]

You're right. I admit I was reaching a bit there. I think I was just trying to communicate that in my experience LP wear is not a prohibitive issue.

Hi Brett, just for the record: Please don't feel like you have to justify your preference of LP's to me.
I get the feeling there is a bit of a ritual that goes along with LP listening.
The cleaning of the record, delicately placing it on the turntable, and listening to the sound of the diamond needle as it touches the vinyl.
I would think it's a lot like preparing to relax, and smoke a cigar.
If you get enjoyment from that part of the hobby; more power to you.
I may not like some of the technical aspects of LP's. Though, I do understand how some may enjoy them.
Rick