No multi channel sound with DVD-A

[timetohunt]

I have been having confusion with hi res formats, specifically DVD-As. Without launching a flurry of questions, I will pose only one or two issues/questions at a time.

background: I have a Marantz universal player (DV7600) connected to a Pioneer VS94-THX receiver via HDMI and multi channel inputs.

Question. I can get the Hi-Res Multi Channel from this setup with SACD, but thus far I cannot get multi channel sound using DVD-As. Can't figure that out yet.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So you are connecting with both HDMI and 5.1 Analog Outputs/Inputs?

It's gotta be the Audio Settings. Try changing the settings: HDMI MCh, HDMI 2Ch, HDMI Mute, PCM, Bitstream, etc.

 

[timetohunt]

I too could swear the problem is buried in the settings. But this I thought should be straight forward. For this issue I'm not dealing with HDMI at all.

I can get multi ch on SACD using the multi channel as source but nothing beyond stereo with DVD-As. The full 5+1 channels are showing up in the player display but only L and R are playing. Its not making any sense to me. I read the heck out the manuals and I understand most of the principles involved.

 

[TLS Guy]

No need for a new thread!

You did not need to start a new thread!

You got the right answer in your last thread.

I have the Marantz 9600 which is similar to yours.

If you use a digital connection you will get two channel.

You must use the analog ext inputs to get the benefit of multichannel audio.

But there's more! I have posted about this until I'm blue in the face. SACD is for techno DIY nuts like me, not the general public. For you it is hobbled.

Now classical CDs have no sub channel. The guys who record those CD's are lunatics like me, who expect that your main speakers will reproduce from 20 Hz to over 20 KHz. Classical SACDs are either 2 channel, 3 channel or five channel.

Now SACD is not PCM based it is DSD based. Now you can not process in DSD, so you have two options.

Your Marantz player in the menu has two options for output of SACD. You can output in PCM. If you do this DSD will be converted to PCM, but then it will be no different to a CD! However you will be able to adjust the level of each channel.

If you set the player to output from the DSD decoder there is no channel leveling. The receiver will not do it either as you have to use the pass through inputs.

Also remember the surrounds for SACD and DVD Audio have to be in the rear of the room, the position of the center backs in a 7.1 system, not the surround position of 5.1 or 7.1

So if you want to listen to classical SACDs from the DSD decoder properly balanced, this is what you have to do. If you had to ask this question, it is likely beyond your resources.

1). If your receiver does not direct the surround info to the rears, then you have to build switching to direct the sound to the rear speakers.

2). To properly balance you speakers you need to build a unit to balance all the analog outputs between the Marantz and the external pass through inputs of your receiver.

3). If you speakers are not full range, you are stuck with a receiver. If you have separate preamp and amps then you can build switching to insert an external electronic crossover between the preamp output and the main speaker amp and your sub. The other thing you can do is run your speakers full range and send a buffered signal from a buffer amp to your sub.

I doubt this situation will survive. It only has because most SACD players convert to PCM and don't admit it, and people think they are listening to SACD via the superior DSD decoder and they aren't.

I think the best plan from the publics point of view is to bury these formats, and use the lossless "True HD" audio format of Blue Ray.

People have a hard time understanding that these systems are for the very few techno savy with some DIY skills, and the rest are basically defrauded.

I hate to have to tell you that if you get it right it sounds excellent.

This is a fairly recent post of mine on this very confused and misunderstood issue.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=417196&postcount=8

 

[timetohunt]

OK. Great info. AND I solved my problem.
It was a player setting issue on the Marantz.
'Digital Out' in the Audio setup menu had to be set to 'OFF' for
DVD-Audio Hi Sampling and 5.1 Mult Ch analog output to occur. This is obviously
relating to the Multi Ch Analog connections.

For DVD-Videos with DD or DTS, my HDMI connection passes this data fine so that it can be decoded in the receiver.

What strikes me as strange is if you did not have use for the HDMI from the Marantz 7600 and only connected with the multi ch and one of the digital connections (coax or optical) - Then I beleive you would have to change your audio settings menu each time you switched from a DVD-V to a DVD-A and vis versa. The 'Digital Out' setting would have be continuously switched from 'Bitstream' to 'Off'

Now as far as building a unit to balance the analog outs between the two units - well I'd have to put some study into that. I can't believe that the makers of SACDs secretly wanted us to start building equipment so that we can hear the format correctly. But... I'm not the one to ask.

Yet, I am left standing with another question. These DVD-As often carry the Standard Res Dolby Digital offering. I see no way to access that with my current setup.

 

[TLS Guy]

OK. Great info. AND I solved my problem.
It was a player setting issue on the Marantz.
'Digital Out' in the Audio setup menu had to be set to 'OFF' for
DVD-Audio Hi Sampling and 5.1 Mult Ch analog output to occur. This is obviously
relating to the Multi Ch Analog connections.

For DVD-Videos with DD or DTS, my HDMI connection passes this data fine so that it can be decoded in the receiver.

What strikes me as strange is if you did not have use for the HDMI from the Marantz 7600 and only connected with the multi ch and one of the digital connections (coax or optical) - Then I beleive you would have to change your audio settings menu each time you switched from a DVD-V to a DVD-A and vis versa. The 'Digital Out' setting would have be continuously switched from 'Bitstream' to 'Off'

Now as far as building a unit to balance the analog outs between the two units - well I'd have to put some study into that. I can't believe that the makers of SACDs secretly wanted us to start building equipment so that we can hear the format correctly. But... I'm not the one to ask.

The whole problem arises because the digiphobes have a litany of imagined objections to PCM. PCM signal processing is well developed. If you look in the post I linked you to, you will see that an unhandy professional system has been developed for DSD processing. I doubt it will ever filter through to players, receivers or audio visual pre amps. I suspect that will always have to take place in the analog domain in home units. I know of no home non professional digital processors, that also allow analog signal processing for DSD.

The only reason there has not been an outcry is because of hidden conversion of DSD to PCM.

 

[santeini]

SACD and DVD A output

Your best bet is to use the 5.1 analog out from your dvd and feed it to the 5.1/7.1 in put of your receiver.To do this you will require 3 pairs stereo RCA cable. You should also get in to the dvd set up menu to to configure the player to properly output the 5.1 (speaker size,distance and db level)

 

[TLS Guy]

Your best bet is to use the 5.1 analog out from your dvd and feed it to the 5.1/7.1 in put of your receiver.To do this you will require 3 pairs stereo RCA cable. You should also get in to the dvd set up menu to to configure the player to properly output the 5.1 (speaker size,distance and db level)

You have not got the point! You can't set speaker size distance and db level unless there is conversion to PCM. If the player outputs from the DSD decoder to the pass through inputs, you can't do any of this.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...AND I solved my problem...It was a player setting issue on the Marantz...These DVD-As often carry the Standard Res Dolby Digital offering. I see no way to access that with my current setup.

I hate to say this, but I TOLD YOU SO!

SACD --> DSD --> Analog
DVD-A --> PCM --> Analog

You don't want Dolby Digital when you are listening to DVD-A. Dolby Digital is for DVD-Video sources. Some DVD-A sources contain BOTH a Dolby Digital and a PCM audio. You want the True DVD-A, which is the PCM audio, not Dolby Digital.

And like TLS Guy says, you gotta turn SOURCE DIRECT to ON, which bypasses all speaker and bass management completely to take full advantage of SACD.

Okay, with Source Direct ON: DSD --> Analog
With Source Direct OFF: DSD --> PCM -->Analog. So you see there is one extra step before Analog.

DSD --> PCM --> Analog.

 

[timetohunt]

^^ thank you. this is helping me understand some of the finer points of how different formats are processed

This is how 'Direct' and Pure Direct' processing works on the Pioneer.
Perhaps one of you could expand a bit on this for me. I understand it but
not fully.

From a chart in the VS94 manual:

For 2ch signals.
------------------'Direct'-----------------------'Pure Direct'
DVD-As.........Stereo Playback...........................PCM Direct
SACD............Stereo Playback...........................SACD Direct

For Multichannel Signals
DVD-As..........Straight Decoding........................PCM Direct
SACD.............Straight Decoding........................SACD Direct


Is it correct to assume that SACD Direct is refering to DSD --> Analog ?

What is Straight Decoding ?

Just for comparison sake what would the flow on Stereo Playback look like ?
DVD/A --> ??? --> ??? --> Stereo Playback
SACD --> ??? --> ??? --> Stereo Playback

This one might be for Pioneer guys, but there was a footnote stating that SACD in MultiChannel under 'Pure Direct' would be 'SACD Direct' as I have above in the chart for the VSX-94TXH. But for lesser models it would be 'straight decoding'. Even the VSX-92TXH which is close to this one.
Anyone understand why this is?

EDIT****** Hold the phone...... I just realized that Direct and Pure Direct are not applicable when using the Multi Channel Ins as source. It simply blinks 'MULT CH IN' when I try to apply 'Pure Direct'.

 

[TLS Guy]

^^ thank you. this is helping me understand some of the finer points of how different formats are processed

This is how 'Direct' and Pure Direct' processing works on the Pioneer.
Perhaps one of you could expand a bit on this for me. I understand it but
not fully.

From a chart in the VS94 manual:

For 2ch signals.
------------------'Direct'-----------------------'Pure Direct'
DVD-As.........Stereo Playback...........................PCM Direct
SACD............Stereo Playback...........................SACD Direct

For Multichannel Signals
DVD-As..........Straight Decoding........................PCM Direct
SACD.............Straight Decoding........................SACD Direct


Is it correct to assume that SACD Direct is refering to DSD --> Analog ?

What is Straight Decoding ?

Just for comparison sake what would the flow on Stereo Playback look like ?
DVD/A --> ??? --> ??? --> Stereo Playback
SACD --> ??? --> ??? --> Stereo Playback

This one might be for Pioneer guys, but there was a footnote stating that SACD in MultiChannel under 'Pure Direct' would be 'SACD Direct' as I have above in the chart for the VSX-94TXH. But for lesser models it would be 'straight decoding'. Even the VSX-92TXH which is close to this one.
Anyone understand why this is?

Unfortunately this is a dog's dinner for the consumer! There are now internationally defined terms here, so you have to understand what is going on.

The digital decoding is really in two parts, decoding and processing. Now remember decoding is all you is all you get from a DSD decoder. In PCM you can decode and process.

Now direct mode means that what is presented to the ext. inputs goes straight to the speakers, except for the master volume adjustment.

So if you can do bass management and leveling etc, somewhere it has been converted to PCM, and you have pretty much lost the advantage of DSD.

So straight decoding means just that, no processing.

Now SACD is the only non PCM based decoding in consumer equipment as far as I know.

So bottom line; to hear a SACD from DSD, it will output to your speakers with the recorded balance. Unless all your speakers are of identical sensitivity, highly unlikely, then the balance will be upset. The problem is you are on your own to figure out a solution for that!

Also, if there is no sub channel on the SACD and you want one, you will have to figure out a way to create one, if your speakers are not full range.

Not only that, I have one SACD of the organs of Cologne cathedral and there is a huge division from behind at times. So that SACD requires full range speakers front and back. If you click in the link in my signature you will see large TL speakers front and back. I have often wondered how many consumers ever heard that SACD the way it was mixed. The German engineers did one heck of a job of the recording by the way. On demo of that disc, the reaction is uniformly, I didn't think that was possible!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Direct Modes

This is my understanding.

Universally, using "Pure Direct" or "Direct" in Multi-Ch or Stereo in all these AV Receivers (including Denon 5805CI & 5308CI) will convert every signal to PCM and then to Analog.

With SACD, the DIRECT modes will NOT convert DSD to PCM if you use Source Direct in the player. The DSD will just convert to Analog in the receiver and sent to the speakers.

DVD-A is already in PCM, so I guess the receiver will just keep the PCM signal being sent to it. It will then convert to Analog.

With Blu-ray Uncompressed PCM, the signal is already in PCM, so the receiver just keeps the PCM and converts this to Analog.

With Blu-ray TrueHD and DTS-MA, with Source Direct ON, using Analog 7.1/5.1 inputs to the receiver, the player's Decoders will decode the TrueHD & DTS-MA, then the player's DACs will convert to Analog without going to PCM first. If you use HDMI in the receiver, the signal will convert to PCM first, then convert to Analog.

So the "purist" pathway is "Source Direct On" & "Analog 5.1 Output" from the Player connect to "Analog 5.1 Input" & "MCh Direct On" in the Receiver. This way you get straight Analog signal from the player sent to the Preamp/Amp sections bypassing PCM - unless it's already Uncompressed PCM from the player.

That's what I'm thinking, but please correct.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Okay, I'll correct myself.

According to DTS, the DTS-MA decoder will decode the DTS-MA signal directly into Linear PCM. Then it goes to the DACs to be converted to Analog.

Player DTS-MA Decoder -> PCM -> Analog -> Receiver Analog Input -> Direct Mode (No DSP, No Bass Management) -> Speakers.

Player DTS-MA Decoder -> PCM -> Receiver HDMI -> Analog -> Speakers.

Player DTS-MA Decoder -> PCM -> Analog -> Receiver Analog -> Not Direct Mode -> PCM (AGAIN!) -> Bass Management -> Analog (Again!) -> Speakers.

Player DTS-MA Bitstream -> Receiver HDMI -> DTS-MA Decoder -> PCM -> Analog -> Speakers.

 

[santeini]

I think you you did not get it.I said to set it on the player not the receiver. Most dvd player which has 5.1 analog out, also has a setup menu where by you can set the speaker size, distance and level.

I mean set it on the dvd player. Not the receiver.

 

[TLS Guy]

I think you you did not get it.I said to set it on the player not the receiver. Most dvd player which has 5.1 analog out, also has a setup menu where by you can set the speaker size, distance and level.

I mean set it on the dvd player. Not the receiver.

A lot of DVD/SACD players convert to PCM and don't tell you! I'm telling you, if you can do what you say it has been converted to PCM in the player, and you are NOT listening to the DSD decoder, but AFTER PCM conversion. There are NO players that process in DSD.

The Marantz set up players with instruction manuals that are honest and give you the option. You have a choice to output from DSD or PCM. If you choose to output from DSD, then all the menus to set levels, distance and manage bass etc. are blanked out. If you select output from PCM then you can do everything you say.

I believe a lot of the cheaper players will not even give the option of outputting from the DSD player, but ALWAYS convert to PCM.

Bottom line; if you can set speaker level, distance, bass management etc, in the player or the receiver, then there has been a PCM conversion, whether admitted in the manual or not. You are not then getting the benefit of SACD/DSD. So what you are getting is CD quality with surround, but you are not getting the added dynamic range and increased frequency response that is the whole reason for SACD/DSD. If it is a two channel SACD then there will bo NO difference in quality between the SACD and CD layers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Most dvd player which has 5.1 analog out, also has a setup menu where by you can set the speaker size, distance and level.

The only way to get DSD --> Straight to Analog is to set SOURCE DIRECT to "ON". This bypasses ALL bass management and speaker management because it will set ALL FIVE speakers to 20 Hz - 20 kHz full bandwidth. There is no crossover whatsoever. Every speaker is set to full range.

If you turn SOURCE DIRECT to "OFF", then DSD --> PCM --> Analog.

Bass management and speaker management can only be done in the PCM digital stage. It cannot be done in the DSD or Analog stage.

 

[TLS Guy]

The only way to get DSD --> Straight to Analog is to set SOURCE DIRECT to "ON". This bypasses ALL bass management and speaker management because it will set ALL FIVE speakers to 20 Hz - 20 kHz full bandwidth. There is no crossover whatsoever. Every speaker is set to full range.

If you turn SOURCE DIRECT to "OFF", then DSD --> PCM --> Analog.

Bass management and speaker management can only be done in the PCM digital stage. It cannot be done in the DSD or Analog stage.

We certainly agree on this one!
This is something consumers, and yes, forum members here do not get. Its complicated, and I believe the industry has done a good job of hiding this issue. When it comes right down to it, only a minute fraction of purchasers of SACD can actually get good sound with proper channel balance and frequency response from the DSD decoder. So let's face it, most consumers and members are better of listening from the PCM decoder with processing. It makes the whole point of the exercise pretty questionable.

When I designed my system, I thought this issue through, as I had to hear it. I was curious, because a reviewer for Gramophone been at the home of a techno nut like me, and had for the first time heard SACD properly set up and was astonished. However he pointed out, that the whole issue was mute, as it likely was in reach of only a tiny minority of SACD purchasers.

 

[timetohunt]

So the "purist" pathway is "Source Direct On" & "Analog 5.1 Output" from the Player connect to "Analog 5.1 Input" & "MCh Direct On" in the Receiver. This way you get straight Analog signal from the player sent to the Preamp/Amp sections bypassing PCM - unless it's already Uncompressed PCM from the player.

That's what I'm thinking, but please correct.

***** Help *****
Here Then brings upon more confusion for me because 'Source Direct' ('Pure Direct' in Pioneerese) is not allowed with the Multi Channel Ins as a source.

Also, another clarification please. If you are using Multi Channel connections from player to receiver: should the following be true
1. Using His Res on DVD-As the fine channel levels should be adjustable with the receiver?

2. Using SACD you will not be able to adjust channel levels if you are getting a pure path with DSD? Will the channel adjustment menu on the receiver be in a frozen state for this? I seem to be able to adjust channel levels either way, and I was thinking I should not be able to with SACD using the multi channel ins. ----- BUT ! The big blocker in this right now is using 'Source Direct' with Multi Ch Ins as source and that does not seem possible with my AVR?

Working through the problem, I'd like to get a full understanding. I wish to be in that minute segment of folks that can squeeze out the full potential of Hi Res formats.

 

[TLS Guy]

***** Help *****
Here Then brings upon more confusion for me because 'Source Direct' ('Pure Direct' in Pioneerese) is not allowed with the Multi Channel Ins as a source.

If that is so you are SOL and up the creek without a paddle for listening to DSD direct. Every system is different. On my Rotel, the analog ext. multichannel inputs can only be in a mode were only the master volume control is active.

I suspect a lot of this is done on purpose to stop complaints from customers that would never try, and could not understand this issue. The sad fact is most consumers think they are getting the benefits of DSD over PCM when they are not and can't.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...'Pure Direct' is not allowed with the Multi Channel Ins as a source...If you are using Multi Channel connections...

1. Using His Res on DVD-As the fine channel levels should be adjustable with the receiver?

2. Using SACD you will not be able to adjust channel levels if you are getting a pure path with DSD? Will the channel adjustment menu on the receiver be in a frozen state for this? I seem to be able to adjust channel levels either way, and I was thinking I should not be able to with SACD using the multi channel ins. ----- BUT ! The big blocker in this right now is using 'Source Direct' with Multi Ch Ins as source and that does not seem possible with my AVR?

Hmm... So you can't use any kind of "Direct" modes when you use the Analog Inputs? Can you use "Direct" modes with HDMI?

DVD-As is already in PCM, so you should be able to adjust channel levels, but why? Adjusting the channel levels means that you are using some DSPs which could further degrade the PCM signal. But yeah, anything in PCM can be adjusted for speaker/bass management.

If your goal is to get the PURE DSD --> Analog source, then you should NOT be able to do bass/speaker/tone management at all.

If you are able to adjust all those things, then it means your DSD has been converted to PCM!

The only way to get DSD --> Analog, instead of DSD --> PCM --> Analog, is to BYPASS all speaker/bass/tone controls.

My understanding is that universally if you are connecting with the 5.1 Analog Inputs, it is in DIRECT (Analog) mode already. If you are able to mess with all the speaker/bass/tone controls, it means that your receiver is converting the 5.1 Analog BACK to PCM, which is not what you want.

You don't want DSD --> Analog --> PCM --> Analog.