Music Stealing?????

J

jamie2112

Banned
I must ask how many folks out there have burned a cd or dvd in their homes? Is it considered stealing if MOST artists want their music heard ,and a select few who have plenty of money but have grown the record executive greed. I think its great that bands are now posting FREE downloads of albums. NIN RADIOHEAD, PEARL JAM,SMASHING PUMKINS ect. Their are many huge bands who are tired of the greed and selectiveness of record companies. That is why the record industry is failing. Because of the fans the touring bands are thriving this year, even with the bad economy. I am not a thief and I have been accused of STEALING music and not rewarding the artist. This has prompted me to ask the question, does anyone feel the same as myself? Am I a crook now because I copied a cd from a friend after I already paid for it once and lost it. I don't think so but that is my Strong opinion.. Thanks just venting....
 
J

jamie2112

Banned
I guess that anyone who downloads a music video off youtube and posts it here is a thief. That is stealing according to some on this forum. I have seen to many posts with youtube videos on them, with music on them:eek: Wow their sure are alot of people who are not rewarding artists.:(
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I must ask how many folks out there have burned a cd or dvd in their homes? Is it considered stealing if MOST artists want their music heard ,and a select few who have plenty of money but have grown the record executive greed. I think its great that bands are now posting FREE downloads of albums. NIN RADIOHEAD, PEARL JAM,SMASHING PUMKINS ect. Their are many huge bands who are tired of the greed and selectiveness of record companies. That is why the record industry is failing. Because of the fans the touring bands are thriving this year, even with the bad economy. I am not a thief and I have been accused of STEALING music and not rewarding the artist. This has prompted me to ask the question, does anyone feel the same as myself? Am I a crook now because I copied a cd from a friend after I already paid for it once and lost it. I don't think so but that is my Strong opinion.. Thanks just venting....
Jamie, you need to be transparent. Your posting in the AAAAAARGHH! Thread said nothing about having 'purchased' music and then lost it. I have NO issue of replacing a library that you legally acquired. I just want to set the record (pun not intended) straight on that.

When I say legally acquired, I don't even mean purchased. If you have music that was given away by the artist, CD's that you swapped, CD's that you were given etc...
 
C

caupina

Full Audioholic
I have made VHS copies out of Laserdics, but that was a long time ago and it was because I didn't have a LD player, but as soon as I got one, I bought the originals. I have only kept the tapes of those concerts that I have not been able to find (buy). I only buy originals CDs, DVD, VHS, etc , sometimes used ones, but always stick to the originals, I like having the cover and the inserts that come along with the CD, it's all part of a historical collection for me that's going to last many years. I had bought some bootlegs though, but out of ignorance 'cause when I bought them I thought they were new releases by Pat Metheny Group, but now I know better. Do I agree with downloading music without the artist consent??? No. I don't, but if you do it for your own personal enjoyment, I have no problem with that, but if you want to make a profit out of it, that's stealing!!!!!
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
I believe the issue is "Copying with Intent to resell or distribute". Since when is copying an album for personal enjoyment a crime? Have I been living under a rock? Hell, if this is the case, throw me in jail today - I've been doing that since the days when everyone had dual cassette decks on their stereo systems.

Then there's things like iTunes of course - which will limit your purchased download to a maximum of five computers, of course anyone who is technical-minded at all knows there are ways to get around this, but the point is, it's not the record companies they're trying to protect, it's their own profit margins. They could care less for the record companies.

What exactly is the problem here? Maybe I missed something... :confused:
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I believe the issue is "Copying with Intent to resell or distribute". Since when is copying an album for personal enjoyment a crime? Have I been living under a rock? Hell, if this is the case, throw me in jail today - I've been doing that since the days when everyone had dual cassette decks on their stereo systems.

Then there's things like iTunes of course - which will limit your purchased download to a maximum of five computers, of course anyone who is technical-minded at all knows there are ways to get around this, but the point is, it's not the record companies they're trying to protect, it's their own profit margins. They could care less for the record companies.

What exactly is the problem here? Maybe I missed something... :confused:
Making a copy of works were you haven't provided compensation in the exchange (assuming the artists are not giving it away) is copy right infringement.

The thing that worries me is that people think it's ok simply because it is easy to do. I have no idea of how that notion ever came about. I understand it is human nature to get product X for absolutely minimum effort or virtually no output of energy.

Again I have no problem with artists giving stuff away, that is THEIR prerogative, not yours. There are ALOT of artists that I buy from direct nowadays. There are also labels that are not some big shameless marketing machine and I would have never heard of an artist if if wasn't for them.

Speaking of iTunes, I have never purchased a digital download just because of DRM and lossy formats. There have been more than a few here that have found out exactly what hook they swallowed on that one.

There is one thing I worry about more than some nascent copying: The loss of first sale doctrine when everything is a digital download with DRM and licensing. That is the truly scary apparition of the future of media.
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
Making a copy of works were you haven't provided compensation in the exchange (assuming the artists are not giving it away) is copy right infringement.

The thing that worries me is that people think it's ok simply because it is easy to do. I have no idea of how that notion ever came about. I understand it is human nature to get product X for absolutely minimum effort or virtually no output of energy.

Again I have no problem with artists giving stuff away, that is THEIR prerogative, not yours. There are ALOT of artists that I buy from direct nowadays. There are also labels that are not some big shameless marketing machine and I would have never heard of an artist if if wasn't for them.

Speaking of iTunes, I have never purchased a digital download just because of DRM and lossy formats. There have been more than a few here that have found out exactly what hook they swallowed on that one.

There is one thing I worry about more than some nascent copying: The loss of first sale doctrine when everything is a digital download with DRM and licensing. That is the truly scary apparition of the future of media.
Sorry, but I just don't see it that way. Record companies and artists alike anticipate a net gain from x number of units produced, and despite whatever happens when it gets into the consumers grimy little hands, the original had to have been purchased at some point or another, and there is no significant loss incurred by simply recording an album onto a CD or what have you for personal enjoyment.

I find it hard to feel sympathetic or even altruistic when it comes to taking money away from most of the mainstream "artists", when all I have to do is turn on the TV and watch an episode of 'Cribs'. Trust me, they're not hurting.

Copyright infringement is a different animal - this implies you have taken property and/or works and intend to redistribute and resell it as your own, and for your own gain. Just because I like a certain band, and want to transfer their album to a CD and listen to it elsewhere, or give it to a friend who happens to like the same band, doesn't IMO imply any sort of copyright infringement - we're gaining nothing but enjoyment out of the artist's music.

Now, many smaller and independent record labels - that's a different story. This is the realm where you find the struggling musicians - the ones who are traveling from show to show in a busted up van, hoping to earn enough money from one show to pay for gas to make it to the next and somehow eat along the way. They produce a CD - this, as it happens to be, constitutes the majority of the music I listen to, and I will do everything I can to support them, and pay for everything I get from them. I was in such a band back in the day, so I have first hand knowledge of how it is.

Incidentally - it's been years since I have copied music for my own enjoyment anyway. I do download from the internet, from iTunes - yes, I agree DRM and lossy formats leave a lot to be desired, but I listen to most of my music while driving (where 128kbps M4A meets road noise meets an adequate aftermarket car stereo system) I have no problems with it, it's fine. I pay for everything I listen to, if it makes you feel any better. :) But at the same time, in these modern times - how can you regulate the practice of copying the 1's and 0's once the original has been digitized and paid for, with all due royalties going to the artists involved? The fact is, you simply can't.

Then you have bands like Radiohead, NIN, and a few others mentioned - who have offered their latest recordings for free via download. I can respect that - when Radiohead came out with theirs, the deal was you could pay as much as you saw fit, or nothing at all, but you would still get the music. Revolutionary idea huh? Guess what - I STILL paid full price for the album - which via their download page equated to roughly 7.5 british pounds, as that was the currency used. :D
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Then you have bands like Radiohead, NIN, and a few others mentioned - who have offered their latest recordings for free via download. I can respect that - when Radiohead came out with theirs, the deal was you could pay as much as you saw fit, or nothing at all, but you would still get the music. Revolutionary idea huh? Guess what - I STILL paid full price for the album - which via their download page equated to roughly 7.5 british pounds, as that was the currency used. :D
I am loving it that bands are going this route. About time. These are the ones that will get my full support, unfortunately, humans being humans, you and I will be in the minority. It's a shame and a short coming.

BTW, I see nothing wrong with getting filthy stinking rich off of my creative efforts. I am trying to get there. Not saying I will live an audacious life style, but I would like to retire and enjoy the simple things by the time I am 45.
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
BTW, I see nothing wrong with getting filthy stinking rich off of my creative efforts. I am trying to get there. Not saying I will live an audacious life style, but I would like to retire and enjoy the simple things by the time I am 45.
I certainly wouldn't fault you for that. :) First round is from whichever of us makes it first! :D
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
...

Copyright infringement is a different animal - this implies you have taken property and/or works and intend to redistribute and resell it as your own, and for your own gain. Just because I like a certain band, and want to transfer their album to a CD and listen to it elsewhere, or give it to a friend who happens to like the same band, doesn't IMO imply any sort of copyright infringement - we're gaining nothing but enjoyment out of the artist's music.
...
I am no lawyer, so you might want to consult one for getting things correct in your jurisdiction, but I believe that there is a big difference between copying something you bought for your own use (like sticking in your car or on your MP3 player), and giving away copies to your friends. In the case of copying it for your own use, I believe (in the U.S.) laws regarding "backup" copies would come into play. But distributing copies to other people of copyrighted material without permission to do so, even for free, is copyright infringement.

Reselling something as your own is not simply copyright infringement, but also plagiarism, which is a different and additional matter.


For more on these matters, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagerism

Again, as I am not a lawyer, none of the above is to be construed as legal advice, and laws vary from one jurisdiction to another, so for legal advice, one should consult an appropriate lawyer.
 
Tarub

Tarub

Senior Audioholic
Again, as I am not a lawyer, none of the above is to be construed as legal advice, and laws vary from one jurisdiction to another, so for legal advice, one should consult an appropriate lawyer.

With consultation fee, filing & paperwork fee, keeping your privacy fee, gas consumption going to the lawyer's office, etc. I will just buy dozens of original cd or dvd and it's probably a lot cheaper.:p
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
I am no lawyer, so you might want to consult one for getting things correct in your jurisdiction, but I believe that there is a big difference between copying something you bought for your own use (like sticking in your car or on your MP3 player), and giving away copies to your friends. In the case of copying it for your own use, I believe (in the U.S.) laws regarding "backup" copies would come into play. But distributing copies to other people of copyrighted material without permission to do so, even for free, is copyright infringement.

Reselling something as your own is not simply copyright infringement, but also plagiarism, which is a different and additional matter.


For more on these matters, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagerism

Again, as I am not a lawyer, none of the above is to be construed as legal advice, and laws vary from one jurisdiction to another, so for legal advice, one should consult an appropriate lawyer.
Whatever - I'm not going to debate the semantics of this nor am I going to get wrapped around the axle on it, and I'm certainly not going to consult a lawyer for merely expressing my own personal point of view. I specifically said nothing about distributing copies of anything. Distributing implies more than just the casual recording of an original unit for personal use, and yes would enter into copyright infringment territory, which - had I said that, might appreciate the helpful links you posted along with your statement; and - had I been living under a rock for the last 30 years, and might not know the difference, which, sir, I believe that I do. So thanks anyway, and have a great day.:cool:
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Whatever - I'm not going to debate the semantics of this nor am I going to get wrapped around the axle on it, and I'm certainly not going to consult a lawyer for merely expressing my own personal point of view. I specifically said nothing about distributing copies of anything.[emphasis added] Distributing implies more than just the casual recording of an original unit for personal use, and yes would enter into copyright infringment territory, which - had I said that, might appreciate the helpful links you posted along with your statement; and - had I been living under a rock for the last 30 years, and might not know the difference, which, sir, I believe that I do. So thanks anyway, and have a great day.:cool:
On the contrary, you specifically mentioned distributing copyrighted material:

...
Copyright infringement is a different animal - this implies you have taken property and/or works and intend to redistribute and resell it as your own, and for your own gain. Just because I like a certain band, and want to transfer their album to a CD and listen to it elsewhere, or give it to a friend who happens to like the same band[emphasis added], doesn't IMO imply any sort of copyright infringement - we're gaining nothing but enjoyment out of the artist's music.

...
That is where the copyright violation takes place. Making a CD copy and giving it to a friend is a copyright violation. If you gave away the original, and did not keep a copy for yourself, then there is no copyright violation.*

_______________
*Again, I am not a lawyer, so this should not be construed as legal advice. If one wants legal advice, one should consult an appropriate attorney.
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
Pyrrho, maybe it's you who needs a link to further explanation, please allow me to provide one:

Definition - "Distribute"

I mentioned a scenario of giving one copy to one friend (hypothetically). That is not distribution. If I were to make one hundred copies and give them to one hundred friends I might take you up on your case.

Check. :)
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Pyrrho, maybe it's you who needs a link to further explanation, please allow me to provide one:

Definition - "Distribute"

I mentioned a scenario of giving one copy to one friend (hypothetically). That is not distribution. If I were to make one hundred copies and give them to one hundred friends I might take you up on your case.

Check. :)
Most prudent people understand in context what distribute means. Bottom line is, when you make a choice to give someone a copy of a CD, you have stepped over the line. Morally speaking, it isn't your's to make a copy of and give. I don't understand what is so hard to grasp about this.

FYI, I am arguing the semantics of it. In reality I am sure there are a ton of under represented artists that are happy if some bootlegging is going on, and also very un-happy if a lot of it is going on and they aren't moving merchandise.

As far as arguing the definition of distribution: There is no such thing as slightly pregnant.
 
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Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
Okay, so let me ask both of you this: I don't know either of you personally, nor do I know your ages, but in all of the however many years you have been living, have you ever made a copy of an album or dubbed a movie and "lent" it to a buddy? Have you ever done this with even a song or two? Have you ever made a mix-tape or CD for a sweetie? Is my point getting across now? Knock-knock

I just don't understand why you're both taking such a high-brow lofty, look-down-your-nose approach to this issue, because if I was a betting man, I'd say both of you are just as guilty as the rest of us at some point in your lives. :cool:
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Pyrrho, maybe it's you who needs a link to further explanation, please allow me to provide one:

Definition - "Distribute"

I mentioned a scenario of giving one copy to one friend (hypothetically). That is not distribution. If I were to make one hundred copies and give them to one hundred friends I might take you up on your case.

Check. :)

You need to look again at the page at your own link. It says under definition 2:

b: to give out or deliver especially to members of a group
(see definition 2 b at your link)

Note, "especially" does not mean "only".

Giving it out to one person is distribution, according to your source. Additionally, you will find it even more clearly expressed at:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/distribute

To give out one copy is distribution. Of course, you are unlikely to prosecuted for this, but you could be.
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
You need to look again at the page at your own link. It says under definition 2:


(see definition 2 b at your link)

Note, "especially" does not mean "only".

Giving it out to one person is distribution, according to your source. Additionally, you will find it even more clearly expressed at:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/distribute

To give out one copy is distribution. Of course, you are unlikely to prosecuted for this, but you could be.
Uh-huh... now answer my question. :)
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Okay, so let me ask both of you this: I don't know either of you personally, nor do I know your ages, but in all of the however many years you have been living, have you ever made a copy of an album or dubbed a movie and "lent" it to a buddy? Have you ever done this with even a song or two? Have you ever made a mix-tape or CD for a sweetie? Is my point getting across now? Knock-knock

I just don't understand why you're both taking such a high-brow lofty, look-down-your-nose approach to this issue, because if I was a betting man, I'd say both of you are just as guilty as the rest of us at some point in your lives. :cool:
I can honestly say as an adult that I have never exceeded my fair use rights to media that I already own.

Example:

Go to video.google.com and type in guitars suck. You will see a compilation of guitarists. These segments are typically 30-45 minutes long. These are submitted by the guitarists.

There I found a cat by the name of Andy Timmons. Went to his website and he has some freebie stuff and some streaming audio. So does his label "Favored Nations". I now own 4 of his albums. I lent two of his CD's out to my brother to check out and he went and purchased some stuff from Andy (and got an autographed poster as a surprise). I sure didn't get one...

I don't have to violate Andy's works because he and his label are smart enough to do the obvious. I am not in violation to loan out a CD, this is covered by first sale doctrine.

Now if you want to be an artist and not do this, that is the artists prerogative. NOT YOURS.

The issue is the ATTITUDE of doing something that is not yours to do with because it is EASY.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Okay, so let me ask both of you this: I don't know either of you personally, nor do I know your ages, but in all of the however many years you have been living, have you ever made a copy of an album or dubbed a movie and "lent" it to a buddy? Have you ever done this with even a song or two? Have you ever made a mix-tape or CD for a sweetie? Is my point getting across now? Knock-knock

I just don't understand why you're both taking such a high-brow lofty, look-down-your-nose approach to this issue, because if I was a betting man, I'd say both of you are just as guilty as the rest of us at some point in your lives. :cool:
We are talking about what is legal and what is not legal. I am not presently interested in saying whether or not the law should be as it it, nor am I presently interested in saying whether or not I abide by the law.

The reason for discussing what the law is, in this context, is in order to prevent accidental violations of the law. Since, by law, ignorance of the law is no excuse, it is good to know the law well enough to avoid problems. That is why I gave a link to a Wikipedia article about copyright violations, instead of a link to some abstruse on line legal document. I wanted to provide enough information for the practical use of most people, not a precise lesson in the law. Still, almost any discussion of the law, even in general terms, tends to start sounding pedantic very quickly.

I am not presently interested in saying that one should abide by the law. I am simply interested in the accurate depiction of what the law is. Whether you or anyone else chooses to violate the law is a matter for the authorities, and is not presently my concern.

Copyright violation is considered to be a form of theft, as one is stealing the intellectual property of someone else. It is not the physical object to which one retains rights when one owns a copyright; rather, it is the information contained in the object to which the copyright owner retains rights. Thus, when you buy a CD, you own the physical object, and can give it away, sell it, destroy it, or add it to a collage that you are making as an art project, and the copyright owner cannot stop this. But, the copyright owner retains the rights to the information contained on the CD, which is why copying and distributing the information on a copyrighted CD (and most CDs are copyrighted) without permission is illegal.

The rights to the information that are retained by a copyright owner are not absolute; in the U.S., typically one may make a backup copy and there are "fair use" exceptions to allow for use of some of the material under certain circumstances; see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

Such things can get complicated and messy, and under certain circumstances, whether a copyright law has been broken or not may be the subject of debate even among legal scholars. I am not interested in pursuing this subject to such a point as that.


To take us back to how I started in this thread, it was simply a reaction to a misstatement you made regarding copyright law. All I was interested in doing was correcting that matter. I am not interested in discussing whether or not the law should be as it is, nor am I presently interested in discussing the morality of breaking copyright laws.
 

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