Did Some A/B testing last night.

mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
If the OP had "heard" a difference, he would be told they were placebo effect, and not valid.
Yes because it would be counter to know results to date.

But because he didn't hear a difference, his results are somehow considered valid? Further, they are now treated as if they were scientific fact. How's that old saying go, "I had an old watch that was right two times a day."
Scientific fact? Hardly but his results are what known outcomes have been so far. His results will not be used to support others claims for audibility. What is there to test? A DBT would have the same outcome with a high degree of probability.


Point being, for those who want to throw around the DBT test as the only way to be sure of something, remember it goes both ways.
No, it doesn't go both direction. He already cannot hear differences in a sighted test. What can he gran from a controlled test? Certainly not audibility.
 
Jack Hammer

Jack Hammer

Audioholic Field Marshall
Yes because it would be counter to know results to date.



Scientific fact? Hardly but his results are what known outcomes have been so far. His results will not be used to support others claims for audibility. What is there to test? A DBT would have the same outcome with a high degree of probability.




No, it doesn't go both direction. He already cannot hear differences in a sighted test. What can he gran from a controlled test? Certainly not audibility.
If one is going to use the term 'scientific' then it does go both directions, otherwise there is nothing 'scientific' about it. And no, I don't think any one who doesn't hear a difference will gain audibility from a DBT, just the knowlege that what ever 'experiment' they performed is valid.

Again, I think you're not seeing the general gist of what I'm getting at. More people should be posting something along the lines of what Pyrrho did when claims are made that nothing was heard, see his post above. That includes mentioning if they are going to do a test with their friends, that to do it properly. And I'll leave it at that.

Jack:)
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
If one is going to use the term 'scientific' then it does go both directions, otherwise there is nothing 'scientific' about it. And no, I don't think any one who doesn't hear a difference will gain audibility from a DBT, just the knowlege that what ever 'experiment' they performed is valid.

Again, I think you're not seeing the general gist of what I'm getting at. More people should be posting something along the lines of what Pyrrho did when claims are made that nothing was heard, see his post above. That includes mentioning if they are going to do a test with their friends, that to do it properly. And I'll leave it at that.

Jack:)
I think you are missing the point of what double blind tests can show. If people, on hearing two things, say that they cannot hear a difference, it will make no difference whether they say this knowing which one they are hearing or not. And, of course, it will not prove that no one could possibly hear a difference, as some people do have better hearing than others (though, of course, no one has superhuman hearing). What a double blind test can show is that someone can actually hear a difference between two things. If they fail to distinguish between the two things, then, assuming the person has been honest, they cannot hear a difference under those circumstances. But such a test cannot show that no one can hear a difference. For that, one brings into the matter what people have demonstrated the ability to do in the past, and bases one's judgment on that.

These ideas apply to other matters. Suppose someone claims to be able to jump a 15' tall fence without the aid of any devices and without being on top of something that would make the jump really less than 15'. Since the world record for highest jump (at the moment I write this) is 8'1/2", one would immediately suppose that the claimant was wrong. Still, they could try to prove it if they wanted to. There would need to be appropriate witnessing of the event, of course, not just taking their word for it, or the word of some of their friends. But suppose I were to claim that I cannot jump over a 3' tall fence. If I were to try to show you by jumping and failing, this would not prove that I could not jump the 3' fence. The reason being, of course, that you cannot be certain that I really tried. If I did jump the 3' fence (with appropriate witnessing of the event), then that would prove that I can, or, more precisely, that I could at the moment that I jumped it. One proves one can do something directly, but only indirectly does one prove that one cannot do something. So it is not symmetrical, and it does not work both ways.

The same applies to other matters as well. Suppose we are interested in the question of whether there is life on Mars. First, of course, we would have to know what we are talking about with regard to what counts as being a life, etc. Then, we would need to look for it. If we find life there (without taking it there ourselves), then we have a proof of the matter. But to prove that there is no life on Mars is not quite the same. One looks for life, and one looks for the conditions of life. The conditions seem somewhat ambiguous, so we are likely to be reduced to looking for life, and the failure, after a diligent search, is regarded as a reason to believe that there is no life there. But, of course, it does not have the same sort of absoluteness as finding life, as, for example, life may exist below the surface of the planet 1 mile down, and not above. In which case, we would likely not find it for some time, if ever. If we alter our question to whether there is life on the Sun, then we can probably say, with a fair degree of certainty, that the conditions are such that no life could live there (it being so very hot), so we don't need to bother looking at all. Notice how there is quite a lack of symmetry in all of this.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
The problem with all of these discussions about subtle and subjective things like wires is that there is no way to prove quality based on science, so we come to subjective ratings. The effect is so subtle that you have to use a double blind study not only to ensure that subjects won't prejudge but also so that the experimenter won't accidentally use body language to suggest an outcome. When differences are that vague, you really need many subjects and a statistical analysis to determine whether results are significant. IMO, the lesson to all this is that you can believe whatever you want about wires, expensive power cables, etc and claim that double blind studies will verify or deny your claims. It's pretty much the same as religion...no proof, much belief and endless debate. The only time I can recall ever feeling fairly confident about the wire debate was when I noticed that humidity had gotten into my speaker wire and corroded them. Clean wires and clean contacts? That CAN be a revelation....or maybe not.
In the case of a claim to hear a difference between two wires, if the person really has the ability to hear a difference, then they can demonstrate it with a double blind test. With some cases, it has been demonstrated that one can hear a difference (as, for example, when one speaker wire is so small that it introduces significant resistance to the signal, and one compares that with a wire that is of sufficient gauge for the task). But in cases of "designer" wire versus similar generic wire, no one has ever demonstrated the ability to distinguish between them with normal and comparable lengths. The reasonable conclusion, therefore, is that people are not really hearing a difference in such cases as that, regardless of whether they believe they hear a difference or not. For a lengthy discussion of these matters, see:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

This is quite simply not a matter that cannot be decided by reason and evidence. It is only that there are significant numbers of people who either do not know about the evidence and reasoning, or are unwilling to examine these matters (due to lack of interest, lack of time, or some other reason/motive), or who lack the mental capacity to understand them.

The matter is pretty well settled, but, of course, if someone claims that they can hear something that no human being has ever been able to demonstrate hearing, they can attempt to prove it, just as someone who claims to be able to jump over a 15' fence can try to prove that. In the case of the wires, they could win a million dollars proving their special ability:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/randi.htm

Of course, they would have to properly listen double blind to win the money; Randi isn't going to be giving away the money to some fool who simply claims to hear something.
 
itschris

itschris

Moderator
Well... reading all this got me thinking I'd like to try something a bit more scientific, so I went back up into the attic, grabbed my bin of stuff and pulled out the Monster hose speaker cables. I enlisted my neighbor to help. We layed the cable side by side so that he could change them fairly quickly without letting on, and I made a point not to look for any obvious clues.

We ran 12 tests using 3 different discs that I know pretty well. The results were telling. On round 2, listening to Barcelona Nights by BJ John Smith on my Spies Telarc disc, I noted "think 2nd hookup may sound a bit more bright. Maybe. I don't think it's as smooth. Not nearly 100% sure." I listened especially close during certain parts where I thought there could be a difference or where I thought I could or should notice a difference.

That was the only possible discernable difference I noted... however... upon looking at the cable choices, it turns out that twice, John screwed with me and did not actually change the cables and the first time he didn't was when I thought I may have noticed a difference. That tells me a lot. The other times he did change the cables on the song, I didn't notice anything.

So... for me... this shows that "trying" to hear differences may be just as ineffective as wanting to hear them. Also, if the differences are so subtle that it would take that careful of focused listening, it really won't matter in the grand scheme of things... in my opinion. I certainly realize I don't have the best trained ears and will not say with 100% certainty that cables don't make a difference, but clearly they don't make a difference for me. Granted, I wasn't using cheap zip cord and did buy quality cable, but I think that's were the differences end. As long as you're using quality cable, the differences may be so subtle that you'll never experience them.
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
Well... reading all this got me thinking I'd like to try something a bit more scientific, so I went back up into the attic, grabbed my bin of stuff and pulled out the Monster hose speaker cables. I enlisted my neighbor to help. We layed the cable side by side so that he could change them fairly quickly without letting on, and I made a point not to look for any obvious clues.

We ran 12 tests using 3 different discs that I know pretty well. The results were telling. On round 2, listening to Barcelona Nights by BJ John Smith on my Spies Telarc disc, I noted "think 2nd hookup may sound a bit more bright. Maybe. I don't think it's as smooth. Not nearly 100% sure." I listened especially close during certain parts where I thought there could be a difference or where I thought I could or should notice a difference.

That was the only possible discernable difference I noted... however... upon looking at the cable choices, it turns out that twice, John screwed with me and did not actually change the cables and the first time he didn't was when I thought I may have noticed a difference. That tells me a lot. The other times he did change the cables on the song, I didn't notice anything.

So... for me... this shows that "trying" to hear differences may be just as ineffective as wanting to hear them. Also, if the differences are so subtle that it would take that careful of focused listening, it really won't matter in the grand scheme of things... in my opinion. I certainly realize I don't have the best trained ears and will not say with 100% certainty that cables don't make a difference, but clearly they don't make a difference for me. Granted, I wasn't using cheap zip cord and did buy quality cable, but I think that's were the differences end. As long as you're using quality cable, the differences may be so subtle that you'll never experience them.
Chris, two things here you mentioned that truly matter most. The most important of which, is that cables don't really make much of a difference to YOU. After all, what matters most to you-that being what others think or what YOU have concluded for yourself?

Secondly, the statement holds more merit to you because of specifically mentioning "as long as you use quality cable". Obviously, if you were to use some old ragged out cable that nobody in their right mind would use vs. a good quality cable the latter would yield better results. Both of these points hold some validity imho.

In closing, always remember that if one goes to the trouble of conducting a double-blind study it is paramount to use a sample that is as random in nature as possible. Otherwise, the results usually are skewed one way or another which in turn, creates problems when drawing conclusions. Thus, bringing into question the true validity and more importantly, the reliability of such conclusions.

Cheers,

Phil
 

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