Did Some A/B testing last night.

[itschris]

I was digging through the closet and found my old box of Monstor Cable speaker wire I had bought years ago. They were a bit short for my current setup but worked well for my 2 channel setup I had several years or so back. I bought them because they looked great, and have to admit, they still do. The cable is about the size of my thumb. Anyway, even back then I didn't necessarily believe that the high priced cables were that much better, but felt they couldn't be worse and was okay paying for looks.

Anyway, just for the hell of it, I moved my speakers a bit closer (so all the cables would reach), and moved the cabinet and started playing with the cables. I switched out the big fat monsters I probably paid $300+ for 10 years ago with the kinda fat cables I made myself. I got some discs that I new very well and went to town.

There was a part of me that wanted to hear a difference... 1) because the cables were so expensive and 2) because in some way you kinda like to think of yourself as a discriminating listener. Despite my best efforts, despite really wanting to... I couldn't hear anything different on any disc, at any volume. I got pretty good at switching the cables fairly quickly so there really wasn't a lot of lag time in between demos.

So if I was on Myth Busters, I'd certainly have to say the myth of high priced speaker wires making a difference is busted.

The only thing I would say is that if I did have super high end equipment, I'd still probably buy a set of Kimbers or some other high end cable just because and the fact that I'd want my cable to be just as cool as my equipment (silly I know, but I'll admit that) I'd like to one day talk to one my friends who have really exspensive setups and do the same kind of test on their stuff. I'm sure the results will be the same. For now, they're going to storage until I get around to putting together another 2 channel setup... I'll use em... since I know they're at least as good as the ones I made myself.

 

[Pyrrho]

You might be interested in:

http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm

And:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

As you say, since you already have the wires, there is no reason not to use them. But I would advise you, in all cases, to put extra wire money into better speakers, as there you will hear a real difference.

When you do the listening tests with your friends, you will want them to listen "blind" to avoid the placebo effect, and you will want to do several repeats to eliminate the possibility of simply guessing.

... There was a part of me that wanted to hear a difference... 1) because the cables were so expensive and 2) because in some way you kinda like to think of yourself as a discriminating listener. Despite my best efforts, despite really wanting to... I couldn't hear anything different on any disc, at any volume. ...

You have just explained two of the reasons why blind listening is so important. Some people want to believe that they have not been suckered into wasting their money on something that does not work as advertised (in this case, better than something quite cheap). And many audiophiles want to think of themselves as more discriminating in their listening, even to the point of having superhuman hearing.

 

[itschris]

I already have the wires, so I won't be buying new ones..

I wasn't trying to do some scientific test, just a causal listening exercise to satisfy my own curiosity.

 

[j_garcia]

I've done this also, bought some exotic, high dollar raw speaker wire just for the purpose of comparing. I couldn't hear any meaningful difference.

 

[Jack Hammer]

I already have the wires, so I won't be buying new ones..

I wasn't trying to do some scientific test, just a causal listening exercise to satisfy my own curiosity.

I say keep 'em if you got 'em.


The funny thing about these types of threads is normally if someone says they hear or even hints at hearing the slightest differnence, the 'cable experts' come out in droves to say it wasn't a double blind test and the difference is strictly the placebo effect. Then go on the offensive.

Yet if some one says they heard nothing, or really couldn't tell, there are rarely any comments about double blind testing or placebo effect. It seems if the results are what the 'experts' want, they are happy and keep quiet or use it of an example of why cables make no difference).

Jack
(FTR, I think cables make little if any difference and without a DBT any results or skewed)

 

[emorphien]

Well Jack, you are certainly right that any test like this is essentially meaningless as hard evidence, but at least in this case the results are supported by reality. Rather than by audiosnobs who spend lots of money on silly things and believe they all help in some immesurable way (or the impact is measurable but well below the known thresholds of human hearing).

 

[itschris]

Just for the record, I wasn't trying to imply that my "test" should or shouldn't be meaningful in the way of any hard core scientific study. Frankly, I've never been one to pay too much attention to any data charts that show me one component is better than the other. I've always tried to let my ears do that type of testing. That's usually my first step in wanting something... from there, I go to other things like cool factor, cost, usability, etc.

I just thought it was kinda funny that someone like me who would have never considered making their own cables, made some that looked almost as good and that sound the exact same... to me... for a fraction of the cost and had some fun doing it.

Honestly, I don't care enough to do double blind studies and all that... it was just an observation and I thought I'd share it with you guys.

 

[itschris]

Well Jack, you are certainly right that any test like this is essentially meaningless as hard evidence, but at least in this case the results are supported by reality. Rather than by audiosnobs who spend lots of money on silly things and believe they all help in some immesurable way (or the impact is measurable but well below the known thresholds of human hearing).

I have to say that there are likely a lot of folks... me being one of them at the time (and to some degree still) who will buy things for lots of other reasons. Who doesn't like big stupid fat cables? And remember, this was 10 years ago... the internet really wasn't that big of a deal then. You couldn't just go online and type in "speaker cable" and get 400 places to buy them. In my neck of the woods, you went to Circuit City or Sound Advice and your choices were that regular translucent gold colored wire or some big fancy cable that came in it's own carrying case... having just started making good money... it was no brainer... the big fat cables in a suitcase had me at "hello."

 

[Midcow2]

you had me at "HELLO"

.. having just started making good money... it was no brainer... the big fat cables in a suitcase had me at "hello."

Yah I hear you, I was in a similar situation in the early 70s when I dropped about $900 on a pair of speakers with each speaker having nine 4 1/2" direct/reflecting cones I fell for it hook line and sinker and thought they were good speakers; now I know better!

But people keep trying to change the laws of physics: copper is copper and cheap or expensive the electrons still travel at the speed of light.

Cables can have good connectors, one conductor can be braided and provide shileding, and they can look difeerent with different thickness of cable cover but in the long run they are basically all the same with the only metric being wire size and the associated resistance/foot.

Good Luck

 

[emorphien]

I have to say that there are likely a lot of folks... me being one of them at the time (and to some degree still) who will buy things for lots of other reasons. Who doesn't like big stupid fat cables?

I can't disagree there. My cables are a little nicer and snazzier than is necessary, but I like the look, and they weren't very expensive.

 

[markw]

I say keep 'em if you got 'em.


The funny thing about these types of threads is normally if someone says they hear or even hints at hearing the slightest differnence, the 'cable experts' come out in droves to say it wasn't a double blind test and the difference is strictly the placebo effect. Then go on the offensive.

Yet if some one says they heard nothing, or really couldn't tell, there are rarely any comments about double blind testing or placebo effect. It seems if the results are what the 'experts' want, they are happy and keep quiet or use it of an example of why cables make no difference).

Jack
(FTR, I think cables make little if any difference and without a DBT any results or skewed)

I think the reason for this is that one can't prove that they did NOT hear a diference. If they can see what they are listening to and claim they don't hear a difference, do you really think concealing the identity of the cables under test will change that outcome?

But, if one claims they DID (claim to) hear a difference while knowing what they are listening to, they should be able pick out the cables without knowing which is which, right? After all, one hears with their ears and brain and their eyes should not matter. The ear and brain should be all that's needed to discern between the items.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
There was a part of me that wanted to hear a difference... 1) because the cables were so expensive and 2) because in some way you kinda like to think of yourself as a discriminating listener.

Imagine how this Mike person must have felt when he could not differentiate his $40k per set of wires, bi-wired speakers, 4 sets must have felt
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=941184

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
The funny thing about these types of threads is normally if someone says they hear or even hints at hearing the slightest differnence, the 'cable experts' come out in droves to say it wasn't a double blind test and the difference is strictly the placebo effect. Then go on the offensive.

Yet if some one says they heard nothing, or really couldn't tell, there are rarely any comments about double blind testing or placebo effect. It seems if the results are what the 'experts' want, they are happy and keep quiet or use it of an example of why cables make no difference).

Jack
(FTR, I think cables make little if any difference and without a DBT any results or skewed)

What is there to comment about his results? It falls in line with all those non peer-reviewed tests of the past and recent times.
You think there has been a change in hearing capability all of a sudden in people to question his outcome?
We question results that is contrary to know results from others that are somewhat well controlled.

 

[speakerman39]

I've done this also, bought some exotic, high dollar raw speaker wire just for the purpose of comparing. I couldn't hear any meaningful difference.

I have done this some with nearly the same results. However, I do believe my hearing has been damaged due to my car audio days. Used to own a Honda CRX with lots of amps and subs. It metered in the high 30's /low 40's on a few occasions. Huh, what did you say? Not bad for a pair of 12" Rubicons.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[itschris]

However, I do believe my hearing has been damaged due to my car audio days. Used to own a Honda CRX with lots of amps and subs. It metered in the high 30's /low 40's on a few occasions. Huh, what did you say? Not bad for a pair of 12" Rubicons.

Cheers,

Phil

Me too. I had a 1984 Mustang SVO. I had two Alpine Pro 15's in a 7th order box with an Alpine 3545 mono'ed into each one. I had 3 other amps powering the front, rear seat, and rear back speakers. It was just insane! It was a big moment when my rearview mirror finally fell off the glass.

 

[speakerman39]

Me too. I had a 1984 Mustang SVO. I had two Alpine Pro 15's in a 7th order box with an Alpine 3545 mono'ed into each one. I had 3 other amps powering the front, rear seat, and rear back speakers. It was just insane! It was a big moment when my rearview mirror finally fell off the glass.

Dang Chris I bet you can't hear either.......LOL!!!! No seriously, sounds like you had a nice set-up. One of my installers is hitting mid 50's in his truck. Not sure what all he has because he changes it almost every weekend. Last time I checked, he was running Cadence amps and subs. Way too loud for me. Huh, what did you say?

Cheers,

Phil

 

[itschris]

This was back when I was in my late teens early twenties... about 15 years ago... I can't believe it's been that long. I remember I was the first kid in my high school to have subwoofers... I had 7 inch Alpines with a small amp, from a fledgling company ... Rockford Fosgate! No one even knew what subwoofers were.. everyone had their Jensen radios with the 2 knobs and the Sparkomatic 6x9's. I was king!

That's where it all started. My stereo shop started carrying home equipment from another fledgling company... Onkyo. I think I was about 19 maybe 20 or 21 when I got my Onkyo 90 Pro and a single Onkyo cd player and my first set of real speakers... my BIC Venturi towers (just took a pic with my new camera I got today!)

It's amazing... these speakers still sound pretty damn good. I still have these, the bookshelf Venturis and a center channel, my Onkyo, and an Adcom 2 channel amp. I could hook up some kind small basic setup in my daughter's room (we're gonna get her a small 32 inch flat panel this summer for her room so she stays off the new system so I can actually watch once in awhile) or I may just setup some kind of basic 2 channel setup with the amp, the two speakers and a preamp and disc player. When I get the new blu-ray player, maybe I'll use the OPPO as the source for that.

Anyway, it's fun going down memory lane now and then.

 

[skizzerflake]

I think the reason for this is that one can't prove that they did NOT hear a diference. If they can see what they are listening to and claim they don't hear a difference, do you really think concealing the identity of the cables under test will change that outcome?

But, if one claims they DID (claim to) hear a difference while knowing what they are listening to, they should be able pick out the cables without knowing which is which, right? After all, one hears with their ears and brain and their eyes should not matter. The ear and brain should be all that's needed to discern between the items.

The problem with all of these discussions about subtle and subjective things like wires is that there is no way to prove quality based on science, so we come to subjective ratings. The effect is so subtle that you have to use a double blind study not only to ensure that subjects won't prejudge but also so that the experimenter won't accidentally use body language to suggest an outcome. When differences are that vague, you really need many subjects and a statistical analysis to determine whether results are significant. IMO, the lesson to all this is that you can believe whatever you want about wires, expensive power cables, etc and claim that double blind studies will verify or deny your claims. It's pretty much the same as religion...no proof, much belief and endless debate. The only time I can recall ever feeling fairly confident about the wire debate was when I noticed that humidity had gotten into my speaker wire and corroded them. Clean wires and clean contacts? That CAN be a revelation....or maybe not.

 

[Jack Hammer]

What is there to comment about his results? It falls in line with all those non peer-reviewed tests of the past and recent times.
You think there has been a change in hearing capability all of a sudden in people to question his outcome?
We question results that is contrary to know results from others that are somewhat well controlled.

[flamesuit on]No offense intended mtrycrafts, overall I agree with what your are trying to say, however this is an excellent example of the point I was trying to make. Your statement is a contradiction of itself. Because there was no DBT the results are worthless, regardless of whether they agree with known beliefs/facts or not.

If the OP had "heard" a difference, he would be told they were placebo effect, and not valid. But because he didn't hear a difference, his results are somehow considered valid? Further, they are now treated as if they were scientific fact. How's that old saying go, "I had an old watch that was right two times a day."

Point being, for those who want to throw around the DBT test as the only way to be sure of something, remember it goes both ways. To maintain credibility, results that are positive must be treated the same as results that are negative, unless the proper testing methods are used to verify them.

Sorry for the hijack. itschris I found the same thing as you after several times switching cables around, I couldn't really tell any difference(non-scientific results). I'm glad you are enjoying your new speakers, great pics.

Jack
(thanks again Pyrrho for mentioning the proper way to verify findings)

 

[speakerman39]

This was back when I was in my late teens early twenties... about 15 years ago... I can't believe it's been that long. I remember I was the first kid in my high school to have subwoofers... I had 7 inch Alpines with a small amp, from a fledgling company ... Rockford Fosgate! No one even knew what subwoofers were.. everyone had their Jensen radios with the 2 knobs and the Sparkomatic 6x9's. I was king!

That's where it all started. My stereo shop started carrying home equipment from another fledgling company... Onkyo. I think I was about 19 maybe 20 or 21 when I got my Onkyo 90 Pro and a single Onkyo cd player and my first set of real speakers... my BIC Venturi towers (just took a pic with my new camera I got today!)

It's amazing... these speakers still sound pretty damn good. I still have these, the bookshelf Venturis and a center channel, my Onkyo, and an Adcom 2 channel amp. I could hook up some kind small basic setup in my daughter's room (we're gonna get her a small 32 inch flat panel this summer for her room so she stays off the new system so I can actually watch once in awhile) or I may just setup some kind of basic 2 channel setup with the amp, the two speakers and a preamp and disc player. When I get the new blu-ray player, maybe I'll use the OPPO as the source for that.

Anyway, it's fun going down memory lane now and then.

Wow, very interesting Chris. Looks like you take good care of your gear. Nothing like vintage gear that still functions perfectly. Helps to bring back memories that last a life-time. Oh yes, I remember the old Sparkomatic 6X9's and oh don't forget the Sparkomatic eq/booster. Heck, I thought I was in hog heaven back then............LOL!!!!!!!!

Cheers,

Phil