Suggestions for an integrated tube amp

R

ronrags

Audioholic Intern
I've read many good things concerning tubes amps especially for 2 channel listening and I'm considering purchasing an integrated tube amp for that purpose. I'm currently running the Outlaw 990/7500 combo with JM Labs Chorus speakers (726v for fronts, 706v for rears and cc700v for center) and have a Denon 3930ci universal player. I really enjoy the JM Labs for 2 channel listening and was wondering if a tube amp would increase the SQ. I play the 2channels in analog mode bypassing the 990 using Synergistic cables.

Based on the my speakers and player, would a tube amp make a difference?

If so, would it be necessary to purchase an integrated tube amp or purchase a tube amp and use the 990 for volume control?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I've read many good things concerning tubes amps especially for 2 channel listening and I'm considering purchasing an integrated tube amp for that purpose. I'm currently running the Outlaw 990/7500 combo with JM Labs Chorus speakers (726v for fronts, 706v for rears and cc700v for center) and have a Denon 3930ci universal player. I really enjoy the JM Labs for 2 channel listening and was wondering if a tube amp would increase the SQ. I play the 2channels in analog mode bypassing the 990 using Synergistic cables.

Based on the my speakers and player, would a tube amp make a difference?

If so, would it be necessary to purchase an integrated tube amp or purchase a tube amp and use the 990 for volume control?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
There is a lot of nonsense talked about tube amps. The minimum power for your speakers is 40 watts per channel. That would take a hefty integrated tube amp.

Now your speakers are current hungry. Although nominally 8 ohm, they have a minimum impedance of 2.9 ohms. So they are actually 3 ohm speakers to all intense and purposes.

If you want to marginally improve things get an amp that can double its output into a four ohm load, something like 200 watts 8 ohm ans 400 watts four ohm.

Nothing provides current to speakers like a good solid state amp.

To get the best from tubes you need very specialized highly efficient speakers with no big impedance swings, something like Lowther produce.
 
R

ronrags

Audioholic Intern
TLS Guy,

Is that your opinion about the hype concerning tube amps or have you compared both side by side? I've got a response by e-mail stating that SS amps tend to be harsh on the high end and artificial sounding and that the JM Labs would benefit from a tube amp. I always thought that tubes also tend to be smoother.

I understand your thoughts concerning power, but I do have a SS amp with 200 watts which I intend on keeping for 5.1. I listen to 2 channel at moderate levels and rarely crank it up. So what you are also stating is that my JM Labs will require a lot more than a 40 watt integrated tube amp to run effective.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
TLS Guy,

Is that your opinion about the hype concerning tube amps or have you compared both side by side? I've got a response by e-mail stating that SS amps tend to be harsh on the high end and artificial sounding and that the JM Labs would benefit from a tube amp. I always thought that tubes also tend to be smoother.

I understand your thoughts concerning power, but I do have a SS amp with 200 watts which I intend on keeping for 5.1. I listen to 2 channel at moderate levels and rarely crank it up. So what you are also stating is that my JM Labs will require a lot more than a 40 watt integrated tube amp to run effective.
I grew up with tubes. I'm old enough to remember the invention of the transistor.

I have built tube amps and have tube amps in my possession, but I think it is getting time to sell them, as I haven't used them for some time.

Now I have to tell you there is no substitute for clean power. Now true, tubes clip with even harmonic distortion, so called soft clip. Many solid state amps have odd harmonic in their distortion spectrum. However clipping is unpleasant in all its forms, its a matter of degree. There is no substitute for NO clipping.

Now tube amps require outputting via a transformer, and that adds a number of aberrations, although on good designs slight. The amp needs to be accurately linked to the load. Tubes are a high impedance device, and are in essence voltage amplifiers.

Transistors have much higher current amplification possibilities. They are much more ideal devices for driving speakers than tubes. This is especially true of speakers with wide variations of impedance and ones that have large voltage and current phase angles. That tends to include a lot of speakers, most, and funnily enough especially the better ones.

Now tubes deteriorate over time and are only prime when new. Tube amps also have a habit of rolling off a little in the high end. (Very few tube amps can reproduce a square wave as well as the majority of solid state amps, which speaks to their limited bandwidth). Now it is this rolling off that gives rise to this legend of tube "magic." The problem is speakers, and far too many, (most) are hot on the top end.

This whole issue really frustrated Peter Walker founder of Quad. He would not introduce a solid state amp until he was certain that it was better than his famed Quad II tube amp. The 303 was the result, and they are a fine sounding amp. Most are still in service over forty years on. He was frustrated by the fact that people would pay huge sums of money for his old tube amps, when his first and subsequent solid state amps were demonstrably better. His current dumping amps are very stable. The 909 is still produced by Quad, now sadly manufactured in China. It is a really fine amp, and you won't find a tube amp that is its equal.

What you are reading about tube amps is largely superstition. I can tell you one thing, unless you have about $40,000 to throw around, a tube amp will drive your particular speakers worse.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I've read many good things concerning tubes amps especially for 2 channel listening and I'm considering purchasing an integrated tube amp for that purpose.
What have you been reading by the way. Reading tube amp literature is very much like reading the National Enquirer. It s great for a laugh once in a while. This is typical of the nonsense that abounds.

This one is pure preening and puffery.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/0203/jolida202a.htm

And then there is this "Sparky" from China.

http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/cayin_ta_30.htm

I bet making the tubes glow blue, improves the sound!

http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/nelson-image66_e.html

And on this poor little single ender, they have published an attempt at it reproducing a square wave! It's rounded and rings like a bell. Might be OK for sound effects, but how anyone could seriously maintain this is a piece of high fidelity equipment is beyond me.

http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/cayin_ta_30.htm

I promise you there are psychiatric DSM diagnostic codes for individuals that spout rubbish like this.
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
TLS Guy,

Is that your opinion about the hype concerning tube amps or have you compared both side by side? I've got a response by e-mail stating that SS amps tend to be harsh on the high end and artificial sounding and that the JM Labs would benefit from a tube amp. I always thought that tubes also tend to be smoother.

I understand your thoughts concerning power, but I do have a SS amp with 200 watts which I intend on keeping for 5.1. I listen to 2 channel at moderate levels and rarely crank it up. So what you are also stating is that my JM Labs will require a lot more than a 40 watt integrated tube amp to run effective.
if you want to drop 10k on a tube amp to make those jms sing, be my guest, but tls is spot on. You might want to check out how ineffecient tubes can be.(note ive run a heathkit w7m 50wpc on some jbl l220s, and while the sound was nice, it lacked a little to drive the 15" woofer, and the speakers were with a 91db rating)
 
Last edited:
R

ronrags

Audioholic Intern
What have you been reading by the way. Reading tube amp literature is very much like reading the National Enquirer. It s great for a laugh once in a while. This is typical of the nonsense that abounds.

This one is pure preening and puffery.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/0203/jolida202a.htm

And then there is this "Sparky" from China.

http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/cayin_ta_30.htm

I bet making the tubes glow blue, improves the sound!

http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/nelson-image66_e.html

And on this poor little single ender, they have published an attempt at it reproducing a square wave! It's rounded and rings like a bell. Might be OK for sound effects, but how anyone could seriously maintain this is a piece of high fidelity equipment is beyond me.

http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/cayin_ta_30.htm

I promise you there are psychiatric DSM diagnostic codes for individuals that spout rubbish like this.

TLS,

I guess there is some truth in your opinion and I appreciate the feedback. This is why I started this thread to get REAL feedback especially from those who have owned both tubes and SS. I still would like to hear a tube amp with my speakers and determine if there would be such a difference to make the investment. Every so often I get the BUG to upgrade or make some improvements in my system. That is why we are called audioholics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
I've read many good things concerning tubes amps especially for 2 channel listening and I'm considering purchasing an integrated tube amp for that purpose. I'm currently running the Outlaw 990/7500 combo with JM Labs Chorus speakers (726v for fronts, 706v for rears and cc700v for center) and have a Denon 3930ci universal player. I really enjoy the JM Labs for 2 channel listening and was wondering if a tube amp would increase the SQ. I play the 2channels in analog mode bypassing the 990 using Synergistic cables.

Based on the my speakers and player, would a tube amp make a difference?

If so, would it be necessary to purchase an integrated tube amp or purchase a tube amp and use the 990 for volume control?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Tube amps may be neat for cosmetic reasons; but they are inferior devices.

If you want the ability to 'tweak' your signal; get a DCX2496 processor by Behringer. This will allow you to adjust your signal with precision. If you want subtle even order distortion added to your signal; I can point you to specialized studio gear that you can control the amount of tube saturation distortion from a real tube that is mixed into your main signal to give you 'controlled' coloration. The Behringer T1953 is such an example; and very affordable to boot.

-Chris
 
J

Josuah

Senior Audioholic
Stereophile has measurements posted of tube amps. They're one of the few that do when they review them. You'll be able to see there how they don't measure as well as solid state amps.

Of course, you may like the coloration added by tubes, in which case a tube pre-amp might be the way to go. Distortion and non-uniform frequency responses can be very pleasing to the ear.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Tube amps may be neat for cosmetic reasons...
I agree with Chris. I get the bug now and again to buy a (low-end) tube amp, but it's for the cosmetics only. I don't think it would sound any better, and might sound slightly worse...but those glowing tubes sure do look cool! :D To me, it's more about art than sound with those. As long as the tube amp doesn't ruin the audio experience, I'd enjoy having it around in my den.
 
MUDSHARK

MUDSHARK

Audioholic Chief
I've read many good things concerning tubes amps especially for 2 channel listening and I'm considering purchasing an integrated tube amp for that purpose. I'm currently running the Outlaw 990/7500 combo with JM Labs Chorus speakers (726v for fronts, 706v for rears and cc700v for center) and have a Denon 3930ci universal player. I really enjoy the JM Labs for 2 channel listening and was wondering if a tube amp would increase the SQ. I play the 2channels in analog mode bypassing the 990 using Synergistic cables.

Based on the my speakers and player, would a tube amp make a difference?

If so, would it be necessary to purchase an integrated tube amp or purchase a tube amp and use the 990 for volume control?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
If you decide to listen to some Tube Amps, Jolida has a good reputation and is not totally over the top on pricing. Tube amps require less power than solid state amps but you may find the sound quality differences to be very subtle. Those that are Classical music connoisseurs swear by them. Only you can decide.

http://www.jolida.com/catalogue/tubeamp.shtml
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
Based on the my speakers and player, would a tube amp make a difference?
That would depend on the quality of the tube amp. A really good one such as those made by Audio Research are quite accurate and, in my experience, perform as well as solid state amps. I've run bias controlled test that include ARC tube amps so my experience is actually pretty serious. They are pricey, though. The more affordable ones have poor requency response performance and usually produce audible distortion - some as high as 10% THD. These would most certainly make a difference.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
...but those glowing tubes sure do look cool! :D .
You could do that DIY:D
Get a tube socket, a step down transformer for the filament and you got a glowing tube to look at. Mount it next to your other amp and you have it both ways:D
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
:DI got a kick out of that.:D
It's no laughing matter! Quad gear was lovingly made in the beautiful old town of Huntingdon, in Cambridgeshire. It has an excellent selection of fine old pubs and inns, where they will pull you an excellent pint to go with traditional local fare.

On my many visits to Huntingdon I always looked forward to a good lunch and a local pint of ale.

Now Quad is owned by International Audio Group. There is still an excellent service center at Huntingdon, still in the very capable hands of Robert Flain, but manufacture has moved to China. They shipped the jigs, that Peter Walker personally made for stretching the mylar membrane for the electrostatic speakers, and the equipment for getting a uniform application of the conductive emulsion.

It was like stealing a national treasure. And the sycophant press, to keep their advertising revenue, had fawning articles saying what utter genius the whole plan was!

The last 909 I bought was made in China, and I have to admit there was no difference in the build quality, but I still think these blue suits who feel compelled to take away these good and satisfying jobs have a lot to answer for. No good will come of it. And by the way, since they shipped these jobs to China, there has been a significant price increase!
 
C

cornelius

Full Audioholic
I think it's fun checking out different set ups. You may or may not like tubes but the only way to find out what they sound like is to listen for yourself.

A cool way to experience it might be investing in a small, second system. A couple of nice integrateds could be the Rogue Audio Cronus or a Manley Stingray - if you're going tubes my theory is at least getting something that looks cool... :) Maybe a pair of monitors from Triangle, or something that's easy to drive...

I recently heard a Leben integrated with a pair of DeVore Gibbon 3 monitors -
I listened briefly, but it was a beautiful sounding system - I don't know if was the tubes, the speakers, whatever - but it made beautiful music!
 
R

ronrags

Audioholic Intern
I think it's fun checking out different set ups. You may or may not like tubes but the only way to find out what they sound like is to listen for yourself.



I agree with you that checking out different set-ups is fun and I need to compare a tube amp to my SS equipment and decide which I prefer for 2 channel. As someone stated above that some classical listeners swear by them. I do listen to a variety of music including classical but I would need to compare all forms of music to determine if tubes work for all.

I want to bring out one point that I do enjoy my current set-up, but I was curious if it paid to use a separate tube amp just for 2 channel.
 
C

chadnliz

Senior Audioholic
One idea that many do to avoid issues with expensive tube replacement, bias adjustments, bass control and heat issues is add a tube pre, it will sweeten up your signal, give you great bass control be easy and cheap to take care of and not heat your room to uncomfortable levels. Myself, most friends of mine into audio, my father and huge numbers of others improve the sound without the many hassles and expense of serious tube amps. Some even add a "Tube Buffer" unit as an add on to an existing solid state rig for as little as $200.00.
 

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