Zaph Audio, Revelator "ZRT" design

[ErinH]

Someone on a car audio forum posted this. I want them... now!

http://zaphaudio.com/ZRT.html

http://zaphaudio.com/blog.html

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=35_39_412&products_id=8362

In all seriousness, I would really like to try these as the fronts in a 5.1 setup. Just wonder how I could match a good center to these unless I don't go a DIY setup with the same drivers.

 

[jamie2112]

Those look pretty interesting.....

 

[ErinH]

I've only heard SS Revs in car audio installs and they sound phenomenal. Of course, the cars they're in were built by people who know what they're doing, but my point is that if they sound that good in a car?... I can only imagine...

 

[ErinH]

I take it there's not many DIY'rs here?

 

[WmAx]

I take it there's not many DIY'rs here?

Probably not.

In respect to the raw driver units in question; they are nice, for sure. But they don't offer anything, really, over what you can do with much lower cost alternatives.

-Chris

 

[ErinH]

Care to elaborate?

IMO, those are some of the top of the line drivers out. If you're doing a DIY setup, it's common knowledge that you get more bang for your buck. Regarding drivers, you can always get good sound with tweaking, but I'm not sure if you're inferring you can buy cheaper drivers and tailor them via eq.

Not disagreeing with you, just genuinely not sure what specifically you're referencing.

 

[WmAx]

Care to elaborate?

IMO, those are some of the top of the line drivers out. If you're doing a DIY setup, it's common knowledge that you get more bang for your buck. Regarding drivers, you can always get good sound with tweaking, but I'm not sure if you're inferring you can buy cheaper drivers and tailor them via eq.

Not disagreeing with you, just genuinely not sure what specifically you're referencing.

I mean exactly what I said: you can get the same audible fidelity from much lower cost drivers that are available. One common example would be Dayton Reference drivers. Low cost. Excellent performance. In fact, you don't even have to go that level, depending on the specific application and operational parameters required for the objective. The primary audible performance, frankly, is a result of the implementation, crossover and cabinet design. The cabinet, btw, is over looked by the vast majority of DIYers, with most building what I refer to as R.S.B.(Resonant Sound Box) cabinets, which significantly color the clarity and timbre of the drivers.

-Chris

 

[ErinH]

I knew you were going to bring up the Daytons. I just had the gut feeling that's what you were talking about. Are you talking about the RS series? These:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-374


I've dealt with the Daytons personally and they do alright for their price... but they don't sound near as good tonally as the Scans I heard... in a car nonetheless.

Again, install and (like you said) implementation are a large factor, but I hear too much of people saying that the cheaper drivers can be made to sound as good as higher end. While that may be true to an extent, items such as the Revelators don't sound good just because they're priced high. There's definately an audible difference and one that I've heard personally.

 

[WmAx]

I've dealt with the Daytons personally and they do alright for their price... but they don't sound near as good tonally as the Scans I heard... in a car nonetheless.

Again, install and (like you said) implementation are a large factor, but I hear too much of people saying that the cheaper drivers can be made to sound as good as higher end. While that may be true to an extent, items such as the Revelators don't sound good just because they're priced high. There's definately an audible difference and one that I've heard personally.

And I ask you: under what control conditions have you performed comparisons? I'll wager the answer is you have not. As I expect you will say, you have simply heard completely different designs that happened to use the drivers. This is not how you determine the fidelity of a driver. In addition to my extensive knowledge of the relevant perceptual research and how it relates to measured behavior(s) that my reply is based upon, I have produced careful ABX tests using carefully recorded samples of different drivers with all other factors equal(compensated/equal FR, SPL, synch point of recordings, etc.) for later auditory analysis - and as expected - the measurements(when sufficient measurements with enough data points are performed) were completely accurate in prediction of the outcome.

I can take some specific low cost raw drivers from an Infinity Primus speaker(in many examples, these low cost drivers from these Primus line happen to be rather excellent drivers in many aspects) , use a carefully produced crossover in a proper cabinet system and record this with a linear recording system in semi-anechoic conditions and have it sound nearly identical to the original signal. Or I can take the above exotic drivers and make them sound like rubbish using a mediocre implementation.

Like so many other things, there is no secret unquantifiable aspect.

-Chris

 

[ErinH]

You're absolutely right. And I completely realize the implications of hearing these in different settings.

My point was that when I was using the Daytons, I did all in my power to make them sound stellar. However, either due to lack of install, driver, or a combination of both, the Scans outperformed them especially in the midrange.


I'm not trying to start a pissing match. I seriously have a hard time following the same train of thought that all drivers can sound the same; which is what it seems to be said when this discussion is brought up.

I like having discussion, so I wanted to state that up front. Before this trends downward.


Now, these tests you ran. They were listening tests or FR computer generated tests? I'm sure you know where I'm going with this... lol

I've never taken the time to compare the specs of these two specifically. Wonder how they compare.

 

[WmAx]

I'm not trying to start a pissing match. I seriously have a hard time following the same train of thought that all drivers can sound the same; which is what it seems to be said when this discussion is brought up.

No one ever said, nor implied, that all drivers can sound the same. In order to get two drivers to sound the same, you have to obtain equal or comparable performance in FR on and off-axis, CSD(insure resonances are at least 20dB down in use), insure mechanical noises are not an issue, and finally make sure that both have inaudible distortion levels when used in the target SPL range, also insuring the sufficient dynamic range capability is present on both, and that both can be driven sufficiently with the final intended amplifier. Now, logisitically, it is difficult to match all of these things for exact same application. But, using an active DSP xover system, these things to become much easier to match(at least in respect to FR matching and resonance control). If the system is for near field use only - then you can delete the off axis response matching requirement. These factors only consider the driver and xover; the cabinet also imparts a substantial acoustic signature with normal/standard systems. You also have to account for this factor. Now, cabinet systems can be made to have practically zero coloration; but this requires far more thought/effort than the vast majority of builders want to invest. In regards to retail systems; even if the manufacturer realizes the cabinet contribution, it is usually far too costly to correct on a retail scale, except in the very high priced sector.

I don't know which particular RS drivers you used nor how you tried to use them. So, it' really a moot point to attempt to discuss any comparison of this particular issue, especially when you consider the relevant variables I just outlined above.

Now, these tests you ran. They were listening tests or FR computer generated tests? I'm sure you know where I'm going with this... lol

The tests I ran, if you are referring to the ABX tests, were tests using a fixed signal clip comprising of several music clips and test signals, recorded, and later synced/level matched/analyzed/used for ABX listening tests.

-Chris

 

[jinjuku]

I take it there's not many DIY'rs here?

I am currenlty working on a pair of Zaph's ZDT3's...

 

[jinjuku]

I mean exactly what I said: you can get the same audible fidelity from much lower cost drivers that are available. One common example would be Dayton Reference drivers. Low cost. Excellent performance.
-Chris

It would be interesting to hear this speaker tweaked for the Dayton RS speaker/tweater combo vs the Scan Speak. See how close you can get for alot less $$.