Pioneer Unveils 2008 Kuro 1080P HDTVs

[admin]

This week Pioneer introduced six new models of Plasma HDTVs for the company’s Kuro line. Pioneer says the new 2008 Kuro models will display black levels up to five times deeper than its 2007 models – talk about new and improved! The new 50-inch and 60-inch plasmas will sell for $4000 and $5,500 respectively.

Discuss "Pioneer Unveils 2008 Kuro 1080P HDTVs" here. Read the article.

 

[ned]

It sound like video processor control for the deep blacks. Does it meam we can achieve that in a Panasonic plasma with an external scaler?

 

[Biggiesized]

The only downside to this year's Kuros is the lack of a CableCard slot. I was really looking forward to cheapskating my cable company.

 

[Rolf Hawkins]

Just the Facts, Ma'am

Hello! I'm a National Trainer for Pioneer on the HBGA side of things, and would like to make a correction (albeit a slight one) if I may.

"Pioneer gets its panels from Panasonic..." This is not quite true, as currently all Pioneer PDPs are a 100% in-house R&D, manufacturing & assembly process. This applies to the new 9G KURO panels as well, which were just unveiled a few days ago.

Now, as you may be aware, Pioneer and Matsushita are merging their respective PDP assets. What this literally means is that Pioneer and Matsushita will share core technologies and R&D to produce future generations of PDPs together. Both companies have unique advantages which, when combined for the first time, will result in displays of an even higher quality than what you will be seeing this year (which trump all previous designs hands down). Everybody wins. So, in reality, Pioneer does not now, nor will it "...get its panels from Panasonic." Future panels will be designed jointly between Pioneer and Matsushita, and the glass itself will be processed at a Matsushita facility (Matsushita, like everyone else, does not make the glass themselves, but rather purchase raw sheets of glass from glass manufacturers who do nothing but make glass and do not etch cell structures or apply electrodes or phosphors; all that's done by companies like Pioneer or Matsushita to their own specific requirements).

Naturally, however, this integration of both teams of engineers and manufacturing ideas will take some time, and we won't see the results until this time next year.

Obviously, the big question is "What will the difference be between Panasonic and Pioneer plasmas?" While the panels themselves will be the same between the brands, as it currently stands, everything else (drivers, processors, etc.) will be developed independently. That is where you'll see key differences in picture and audio quality.

By Fall of '09, we should first see new Pioneer and Elite-branded PDPs, followed later in that FY by Panasonic-branded PDPs, each using the same panels, but each using independently designed drivers and processors.

Thank you for your time!

 

[Rolf Hawkins]

Apples and Oranges

It sound like video processor control for the deep blacks. Does it meam we can achieve that in a Panasonic plasma with an external scaler?

Currently, no. In the future...who knows?

The cell structures between the two brands of PDPs are very different, as are the ways in which the cells are addressed (what part of the source signal is assigned to which pixel), and how they are fired (what intensity for what color combination).

I am not able to speak for how Panasonic addresses or fires the cells in their current panel designs, but Pioneer's cell structures are deeper (reflecting less ambient room light when particular cells are turned off to represent black), and require far less of a charge in reserve (stand-by power to switch instantly from black, or off, to on showing a color), resulting in a blacker-appearing cell vs. a grey-appearing cell.

So, even if both brands used identical video DACs and scalers, how the actual cells themselves are turned on and off are completely different.

 

[Wayde Robson]

"Pioneer gets its panels from Panasonic..." This is not quite true, as currently all Pioneer PDPs are a 100% in-house R&D, manufacturing & assembly process. This applies to the new 9G KURO panels as well, which were just unveiled a few days ago.
... Future panels will be designed jointly between Pioneer and Matsushita,

Thanks Rolf H!

Correction ... panels will be designed jointly between Pio and Panny.

 

[westcott]

But the real question is, "Is it worth paying 3 to 5 times more than a Panasonic Plasma?"

My Panasonic sits in the master bedroom, and that is how I voted. And.....I am considering a second one for the home theater. And....I still have some change left to buy one or two more compared to the Pioneer. Or, better yet, pay my gasoline credit card bills.

 

[AdrianMills]

But the real question is, "Is it worth paying 3 to 5 times more than a Panasonic Plasma?"

My Panasonic sits in the master bedroom, and that is how I voted. And.....I am considering a second one for the home theater. And....I still have some change left to buy one or two more compared to the Pioneer. Or, better yet, pay my gasoline credit card bills.

Whether you want to foot the additional cost depends on a combination of a things, not least of all;

1) You are very critical about black reproduction and you watch genres which tend to have a lot of dark scenes.

2) You watch in a dark environment which exaserbates the black issue.

3) You have a lot of disposable income.

Of course Pio's have also tended to have better processing, less posterization and better asthetics overall too but how much people think these are worth is a value judgement each person needs to make for themselves.

I was very happy with my old Panny but I'm happier with my 8G Kuro and I'm going to be ecstatic about the 10G Kuro next year if it has absolute blacks.

 

[ned]

Whether you want to foot the additional cost depends on a combination of a things, not least of all;

1) You are very critical about black reproduction and you watch genres which tend to have a lot of dark scenes.

2) You watch in a dark environment which exaserbates the black issue.

3) You have a lot of disposable income.

Of course Pio's have also tended to have better processing, less posterization and better asthetics overall too but how much people think these are worth is a value judgement each person needs to make for themselves.

I was very happy with my old Panny but I'm happier with my 8G Kuro and I'm going to be ecstatic about the 10G Kuro next year if it has absolute blacks.

Great response. Wish we all have disposable income like you.

 

[AdrianMills]

Great response. Wish we all have disposable income like you.

Yes, I'm very lucky these days actually but it hasn't always been that way and I still have to prioritize and save for very expensive things. I would still prefer to go without than to buy something that I knew I wouldn't be 100% satisfied with.

 

[AVRat]

Hey Ned, your setup isn't exactly cheap either!

 

[Biggiesized]

So far some authorized online dealers have let slip their prices for the new Kuros. Since I'm interested in the 50" regular and Elite models, here are the prices I was told:

PDP-5020FD $3400 shipped
PRO-111FD $4200 shipped

Not bad for pre-order prices. I expect they'll come down near the end of the summer.

 

[bandphan]

and which retailers would that be? authorized?

 

[mouettus]

The thing with Pioneer vs Panasonic is not only the slightly better blacks for for Pioneer; it's the big difference with image processing. I've seen this year's PZ-80 and 85U and they are far from being that good. I mean, we can clearly see some noise. Blacks were very good though. But when you look at a Pio, it's like you were looking thru a window.

3400$ shipped is not bad at all. I would buy one if I lived in the states. You don't see those kinda deals in Canada.

 

[bandphan]

So far some authorized online dealers have let slip their prices for the new Kuros. Since I'm interested in the 50" regular and Elite models, here are the prices I was told:

PDP-5020FD $3400 shipped
PRO-111FD $4200 shipped

Not bad for pre-order prices. I expect they'll come down near the end of the summer.

according to PUSA the retailon the pro111fd will be 5k, te retail price you got was mis qoated. the pro141 sig series msrp is TBD in the usa.

Im really interested in the sig series 141's intergration and custom install aspect.

 

[Soundman]

The thing with Pioneer vs Panasonic is not only the slightly better blacks for for Pioneer; it's the big difference with image processing. I've seen this year's PZ-80 and 85U and they are far from being that good. I mean, we can clearly see some noise. Blacks were very good though. But when you look at a Pio, it's like you were looking thru a window.

3400$ shipped is not bad at all. I would buy one if I lived in the states. You don't see those kinda deals in Canada.

As far as movie watching goes, wouldn't the excellent processing capabilities of an Oppo DVD player or PS3 help with this issue?

 

[mouettus]

As far as movie watching goes, wouldn't the excellent processing capabilities of an Oppo DVD player or PS3 help with this issue?

It's not a source problem. 1080i tv via a great box and a panasonic blu-ray player. both had so-so processing. Maybe I could go to another store but I wasn't impressed at first. Last years' semmed better.

 

[Biggiesized]

according to PUSA the retailon the pro111fd will be 5k, te retail price you got was mis qoated. the pro141 sig series msrp is TBD in the usa.

Im really interested in the sig series 141's intergration and custom install aspect.

I didn't get misquoted. I know the MSRPs are $4K and $5K respectively. However, when you buy from an authorized dealer, they can sell them to you below MSRP unlike big stores like Best Buy, etc.

The dealer who quoted me was BuyBestPlasma.com. If any of you visit the AVSForum, you may have heard of Roman. He used to work for Invision Displays, but now works for the aforementioned. I also talked to another Elite dealer from CA (Sing Young, Inc.) who said he'd match those already low prices.

N.B. Pioneer said they're trying to crack down on Elite sales policy such as Elite dealers can't sell those TVs to customers more than 250 miles away (the policy is designed to be a value added feature to local Elite dealers). However, both dealers said they'd honor the warranty regardless of the policy.

There are a few other Elite dealers you can talk to at AVSForum. Axxis Audio is a dealer in CO and Robert (DTV TiVo Dealer) from ValueElectronics.com is located in NY. However, Robert said he's following policy this year and restricting Elite sales to the 250 mile radius. All of them are good guys to negotiate with. I don't have quotes from them yet, but I'd suspect they'd all be very close to one another, if not the same (they all attended the same dealer training just last week).

 

[bandphan]

yes i know robert and roman, both of whom would probably like you to keep the pricing issue to a minimum. Robert is doing the right thing by adhering to the Elite Dealers requirment. PUSA will authorize sales outside the 250 mile radius, under certian circumstances. I was only talking about MSRP and advertised prices, not pm's.

 

[Biggiesized]

yes i know robert and roman, both of whom would probably like you to keep the pricing issue to a minimum. Robert is doing the right thing by adhering to the Elite Dealers requirment. PUSA will authorize sales outside the 250 mile radius, under certian circumstances. I was only talking about MSRP and advertised prices, not pm's.

They only want to keep it hush-hush because they have to adhere to the AVSForum rules. There is nothing preventing us from discussing prices here.