More power out of my receiver

[mtrycrafts]

I remember when I was a much younger man and volume was everything.

But now you cannot hear it, that volume took care of it

 

[mtrycrafts]

So is there an average for most speakers? How do I know 90db efficiency is good or bad?

By the way guys, these RTI12's are going in my bedroom which is 9 x 9

Your receiver will be enough to cause you permanent hearing loss so be careful.

 

[guitarplyrstevo]

Your receiver will be enough to cause you permanent hearing loss so be careful.

See what I am trying to get isn't a lot of volume. I am not going to be running this setup really loud, I just want to be able to feel the sound. Is that the only way I can feel the sound? To turn it up really loud?

 

[mouettus]

See what I am trying to get isn't a lot of volume. I am not going to be running this setup really loud, I just want to be able to feel the sound. Is that the only way I can feel the sound? To turn it up really loud?

Well so far the only way I found to "feel" the plucks of guitar was to take my speakers to high SPLs. That's what got me addicted to audio at first. Good quality electric guitar going through your chest, making every part of your body vibrate along the way. I'm getting shivers at the thought...

 

[guitarplyrstevo]

Well so far the only way I found to "feel" the plucks of guitar was to take my speakers to high SPLs. That's what got me addicted to audio at first. Good quality electric guitar going through your chest, making every part of your body vibrate along the way. I'm getting shivers at the thought...

This is the way I am thinking. Since I will have the RTI12's in my room which is only 9x9, I will not have to turn up my system as loud in order to feel the sound. Is this right? Plus, the RTI12's will be about 2 feet in front of me so I am hoping that will make it even easer to feel the bass coming from these speakers. What do you guys think?

 

[no. 5]

This is the way I am thinking. Since I will have the RTI12's in my room which is only 9x9, I will not have to turn up my system as loud in order to feel the sound. Is this right? Plus, the RTI12's will be about 2 feet in front of me so I am hoping that will make it even easer to feel the bass coming from these speakers. What do you guys think?

As far as I know, the only to feel sound is to have high sound pressure levels, and you may not need to turn the volume as high to feel the sound in a small room or if you are close to the speaker, but that dose not mean that the in room SPL (or the SPL at your ears) is low too.

That said, standing close to the speakers will definitely make it easer to feel the bass.

 

[guitarplyrstevo]

As far as I know, the only to feel sound is to have high sound pressure levels, and you may not need to turn the volume as high to feel the sound in a small room or if you are close to the speaker, but that dose not mean that the in room SPL (or the SPL at your ears) is low too.

That said, standing close to the speakers will definitely make it easer to feel the bass.

Thank you, that clears up a lot. I know this setup is extremely overkill for my situation but I've always loved the look and sound of the RTI12's.

So what is the main difference between the RTi12's and the RTi A9?

 

[mike c]

So what is the main difference between the RTi12's and the RTi A9?

mostly enclosure shape and color of the speaker face.

2 feet away? with a 90db sensitivity ... 8 watts should be enough to make you deaf

 

[mouettus]

I feel sorry he will be at 2ft. It really ruins the experience if you don't have studio monitors. I know what I talk about... I own a good pair of bookshelves for my computer and I think the sound is really not the same. IMO you have to be at least 6-7ft away from your speakers to really enjoy. It could be that my room is kinda square so I have a HUGE bass null right where I'm sitting. But the imaging is not the same too... I have a less than ideal positioning but it's the only way I can get around with good sound.

BTW, having more drivers doesn't mean you will have louder levels. It will take some more juice to arrive there. That's where your amp is important. I wouldn't go with the 12s without a good receiver/amp.

 

[fmw]

But I've read on the interenet that in order to take full advantage of the RTI12's, you need to run 300 watts to each tower. I'm not sure if 80 watts would be enough to power all the speakers in the tower.

Also, what does efficiency mean? I've always seen speakers efficiency rating but what does it actually mean?

Let's dig into this a little. A 90 db efficiency rating means that the speakers will play a 1000hz test tone at 90db (loud, by the way) at a listening distance of 1 meter with 1 watt of amplifier power. That's 1 watt, not 100 watts. Yes, as you move further from the speaker than 1 meter the dB level will decrease but not by much in a room in your home. For each 3 db of increase in sound pressure level, you need to double the amplifier power. So 93 db would require 2 watts, 96 db would require 4 watts, 99 db would require ear plugs for me. You get the idea.

Anybody that tells you you need 300 watts to drive a 90dB efficient speaker in a home environment simply doesn't have a clue. You shouldn't take any advice from such a person.

Now let's get back to our 4 watts. Just in case, let's provide for 10 times the available power to handle any potential peaks beyond the steady state test tone. That would double the the volume, by the way - earplugs for all of us if it were steady state. Now we are at 40 watts. There simply isn't any way to use more watts than that unless we are in a very large venue (a long way away from the speakers) or unless we really want to damage our hearing. So is 80 watts enough? Obviously. More than enough.

Audiophiles have always had unrealistic expectations about necessary amplifier power. I don't know why. I think it comes from the manufacturers who have been in a "power" struggle since the early days of audio. 50 years ago 15 watts per channel was a typical amplifier power rating. As you can tell, it handled most home audio requirements just fine. Today we seem to think we can't get by with less than 200 watts per channel in home audio but I'm here to tell you that is just plain nonsense. Those who believe that need to connect a watt meter to a speaker system and monitor for a while. It will be an eye opener for most audio nuts.

If you want to buy a more powerful amplifer, help yourself. It certainly won't hurt anything. But do it because you want it, not because you think you need it.

Best of luck to you.

 

[guitarplyrstevo]

Let's dig into this a little. A 90 db efficiency rating means that the speakers will play a 1000hz test tone at 90db (loud, by the way) at a listening distance of 1 meter with 1 watt of amplifier power. That's 1 watt, not 100 watts. Yes, as you move further from the speaker than 1 meter the dB level will decrease but not by much in a room in your home. For each 3 db of increase in sound pressure level, you need to double the amplifier power. So 93 db would require 2 watts, 96 db would require 4 watts, 99 db would require ear plugs for me. You get the idea.

Anybody that tells you you need 300 watts to drive a 90dB efficient speaker in a home environment simply doesn't have a clue. You shouldn't take any advice from such a person.

Now let's get back to our 4 watts. Just in case, let's provide for 10 times the available power to handle any potential peaks beyond the steady state test tone. That would double the the volume, by the way - earplugs for all of us if it were steady state. Now we are at 40 watts. There simply isn't any way to use more watts than that unless we are in a very large venue (a long way away from the speakers) or unless we really want to damage our hearing. So is 80 watts enough? Obviously. More than enough.

Audiophiles have always had unrealistic expectations about necessary amplifier power. I don't know why. I think it comes from the manufacturers who have been in a "power" struggle since the early days of audio. 50 years ago 15 watts per channel was a typical amplifier power rating. As you can tell, it handled most home audio requirements just fine. Today we seem to think we can't get by with less than 200 watts per channel in home audio but I'm here to tell you that is just plain nonsense. Those who believe that need to connect a watt meter to a speaker system and monitor for a while. It will be an eye opener for most audio nuts.

If you want to buy a more powerful amplifer, help yourself. It certainly won't hurt anything. But do it because you want it, not because you think you need it.

Best of luck to you.

This makes a lot of sense but why do all the reviews I have seen on the Polk RTi12's say that you need a lot of power to get the woofers moving? In all of these reviews, I have read that if you give these speakers enough power (200 watts minimum) you don't even need a subwoofer. That is what I am trying to achieve, even though I already have a 10" Klipsch Synergy subwoofer. I don't want bass coming from only my woofer, I want bass coming from all around me, in my opinion how it should be.

 

[fmw]

This makes a lot of sense but why do all the reviews I have seen on the Polk RTi12's say that you need a lot of power to get the woofers moving? In all of these reviews, I have read that if you give these speakers enough power (200 watts minimum) you don't even need a subwoofer. That is what I am trying to achieve, even though I already have a 10" Klipsch Synergy subwoofer. I don't want bass coming from only my woofer, I want bass coming from all around me, in my opinion how it should be.

Why? I don't know. Lousy reviewers who can't hear past their biases? Reviews based on opinion rather than tests? I couldn't tell you. I can tell you that the home audio business is full of more nonsense than any other industry I've ever encountered. Remember it is reviewers who extol the virtues of the sonic differences between power cords. I can't explain why they can't get control of themselves. You can tell I don't pay much attention to reviews unless I know the person writing it.

It is true that the bass frequencies and drivers draw most of the power in a speaker system. Tweeters normally draw only milliwatts. You can take the numbers I provided you in the earlier post to the bank. As long as neither amp is clipping, a 40 watt amp delivering 10 watts to a speaker system will drive exactly the same level of bass and all other frequencies as a 200 watt amp delivering the same 10 watts. 10 watts is 10 watts. It might be 25% of the total available or 5%. But it's still 10 watts.

 

[fmw]

One more point. Based on your handle, I assume you are a guitarist. Take a nice 30 watt tube guitar amplifier, put it in a night club and tell me if you need to crank it all the way up to be heard through the drums and other instruments? Maybe that helps.

 

[Seth=L]

OP just needs a better subwoofer. The Klipsch you have isn't going to shake the walls down, try an SVS, Velodyne, or HSU subwoofer.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... Plus, the RTI12's will be about 2 feet in front of me ...?

WOW, you are almost inside it at that distance. It will not sound right in the first place but it will have more than enough volume for you. If not, you need a better speaker that can reproduce those chest pounding low frequencies, but that too, needs volume to have an effect. Or, you can ask someone to poke you in the chest with the music

 

[mtrycrafts]

... to make you deaf

Maybe that is what we are overlooking, he is already?

 

[PENG]

This makes a lot of sense but why do all the reviews I have seen on the Polk RTi12's say that you need a lot of power to get the woofers moving? In all of these reviews, I have read that if you give these speakers enough power (200 watts minimum) you don't even need a subwoofer.

One of the reasons could be that some of those so called reviewers like to brag about how much power they have, or to try and justify spending money on power instead of the more important things such as room acoustics, players and speakers etc.

If you check the Polk Audio site, and/or email them you may get different advice. Also, if you search hard enough on the web or drop in one of those Chapter/Indigo book stores, you may find reviews on power amps that are rated for less than 25 watts and yet do a good job for a not too small room.

 

[MDS]

This makes a lot of sense but why do all the reviews I have seen on the Polk RTi12's say that you need a lot of power to get the woofers moving? In all of these reviews, I have read that if you give these speakers enough power (200 watts minimum) you don't even need a subwoofer.

You see that kind of statement a lot but what many people don't seem to realize is that your 200 wpc amp is not going to be delivering 200 watts all the time. As fmw explained, you need a little headroom for peaks which can require up to 10x the power (but only for short instances) but the majority of the time you don't really need that kind of power.

However a robust amp could have an advantage in that it will be operating in its linear range at higher output levels whereas the receiver amp may be stressing a little bit at those levels. You can drive your car at 3000 RPM all day long with no issues (receiver at moderate volumes) but how long can you stress the engine and maintain 7000 RPM (receiver operating near its max)? That's a silly analogy but still relevant I think.

I don't agree with any statement that says in effect 'you need a lot of power to make these speakers sound their best' because in my mind that is akin to saying these speakers suck at normal volumes. So if you are listening at moderate volumes while you work around the house they sound horrible but when you crank them up to concert levels they suddenly sound wonderful? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[guitarplyrstevo]

I feel sorry he will be at 2ft. It really ruins the experience if you don't have studio monitors. I know what I talk about... I own a good pair of bookshelves for my computer and I think the sound is really not the same. IMO you have to be at least 6-7ft away from your speakers to really enjoy. It could be that my room is kinda square so I have a HUGE bass null right where I'm sitting. But the imaging is not the same too... I have a less than ideal positioning but it's the only way I can get around with good sound.

BTW, having more drivers doesn't mean you will have louder levels. It will take some more juice to arrive there. That's where your amp is important. I wouldn't go with the 12s without a good receiver/amp.

I have hard the RTi A9's running from an Onkyo 875 and didn't really notice too much of a difference when I was standing really close and when I was standing a little farther.

As far as the amplication issue is concerned, I guess I really have no choice now since my receiver only has a subwoofer preamp out.