Blue Jeans Strikes Back

A

aarond

Full Audioholic
I was not even aware of the Tartan division of BJC before this article. Now I have somewhere to send my friends that have trouble with even the reasonable prices of BJC.
My guess is that the 3' component cable that Tartan sells for 10 bucks comes off the same assembly line that munster has a list price of 60 bucks for. So whats not to be mad about. They probably need to go after the factory for selling the same cables to both vendors.
 
F

Frihed89

Audiophyte
Kurt,

Why such a long letter when you could have simply said, "No, I haven't and I don't plan to stop"? You gave them a lot of free information.

Why do you think they picked your company?

Good luck with all this.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
... But some guy on this board named Logain, of whom nothing is known, disagrees with his advice. What a tossup. What should I do?

Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable
(yes, I'm out of town...couldn't resist checking in, though...)
Gee, throw in the towel? LOL:D
Yes, be careful, this can be a legal, addictive habit. :D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
**edit** Forgot one thing... Anyone else notice now when you Google "audioholics" the second link thats listed is THIS Article? Hows that for exposure!
I just love it. And, with Monster's hand full with the strike and demonstration in SF, I am thrilled:D
I just wish the IRS would notice the bit about that Bahama shelter they created:D Empire comes crashing down:p
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Ya gotta love the internet. Finally small business has a way to compete against the huge store front (high overhead) "Monsters" of the business world.

I found this thread most interesting. Especially the responses. I have also been involved in the patent business and this put a big smile on my face.

Monster won't be seeing a penny of my money ever again.
And, when you really find out about their intimidating practice of going after anyone who has 'Monster' in their business name, regardless of what they sell, clothing, ski school for kids, Disney with their movies, etc, perhaps you too can convince all your friends to stay away from them.:D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
....
. I only regret that they don't sell optical and computer cables.
Yes, but there are other companies at a reasonable price. No need to go to that Monster.

their case seems weak and frivolous, at least to a lay observer.
That has been their history, bringing litigation to anyone who uses 'Monster' in their business name, regardless of what they sell, even Disney. And Disney signed a licensing deal. :mad:
 
S

stevensurprenan

Audiophyte
I'm not picking sides here.

Frankly I don't care for Monster products, but if they are in the right then it should be a simple matter of agreeing to correct the situation.

I read the entire letter and will agree that the author of it is an educated man, but then I have a habit of reducing long winded diatribes into a Reader Digest version. It seems to me that he said that Monster didn't supply enough proof that there was an infringement and asked for more information specific to the claim. That is of course important and necessary to even make a claim of this sort. Second, he makes claims against Monster which questions their business practices. I understand that he is just letting them know that he is aware of their methods which he implies is leaning toward the unethical. This can be construed as slander on his part. He should have left that part out. Lastly, he informs them that in the end, if they do win the litigation, they will never recover the loss of their legal fees so from a financial standpoint it would be in their best interest to drop the entire matter.

The solution is very simple. If there is an infringement, then monster should prove it and Blue Jeans Cable should make the changes necessary to correct it. No need to take this to court and no money should change hands.

I would think that Blue Jeans Cable is ethical enough to do the right thing. As for Monster, I don't know. I bought one of their cables and I am still mad at them for it.

If it does go to court, then the looser should pay all legal fees for both parties.

I could go either way with this depending on whether Monster can prove their allegations.

While the letter seems impressive on the surface, it's substance is pretty much what I indicated in the Reader Digest version. The letter has a secondary message beyond that of it's intended message and that is, Kurt Denke is not intimidated and smart enough to give Monster a run for their money. This part is meaningless if Monster is in the right and can prove their claim. If Kurt is correct in that Monster has not and perhaps cannot substantiate they claim, then this is a no brainer. Monster looses.

Well, that's my book report and I'm sticking to it.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I'm not picking sides here.

Frankly I don't care for Monster products, but if they are in the right then it should be a simple matter of agreeing to correct the situation.
Mr. Denke agrees. If Monster can provide him with unequivocal proof about their 'design' patents, he has no problem honoring that.

That is of course important and necessary to even make a claim of this sort. Second, he makes claims against Monster which questions their business practices. I understand that he is just letting them know that he is aware of their methods which he implies is leaning toward the unethical. This can be construed as slander on his part.
Construing slander and actually slandering are two different things. I believe Mr. Denke knows the difference. If your above statement is true then there are hundreds here and on other enthusiasts boards just as, if not more so, guilty.

Lastly, he informs them that in the end, if they do win the litigation, they will never recover the loss of their legal fees so from a financial standpoint it would be in their best interest to drop the entire matter.

The solution is very simple. If there is an infringement, then monster should prove it and Blue Jeans Cable should make the changes necessary to correct it. No need to take this to court and no money should change hands.
Which Mr. Denke in his original response (did you read it thoroughly?) has conceded about correcting the infringement if it exists.

I would think that Blue Jeans Cable is ethical enough to do the right thing. As for Monster, I don't know. I bought one of their cables and I am still mad at them for it.
Which you see to be quite nebulous as to what the 'right thing' is.

I could go either way with this depending on whether Monster can prove their allegations.
i.e. you pick one you want to cheer for after they won. Convenient.

While the letter seems impressive on the surface, it's substance is pretty much what I indicated in the Reader Digest version. The letter has a secondary message beyond that of it's intended message and that is, Kurt Denke is not intimidated and smart enough to give Monster a run for their money. This part is meaningless if Monster is in the right and can prove their claim. If Kurt is correct in that Monster has not and perhaps cannot substantiate they claim, then this is a no brainer. Monster looses.

Well, that's my book report and I'm sticking to it.
Thanks for clearing up Mr. Denkes' response to Monster. I don't believe anyone else here had the ability to grasp the nuance and all the levels of communication contained therein...:rolleyes:
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
I love your writing style, Kurt.

"Indeed, the less my customers think my products resemble Monster's, in form or in function, the better."

"If Monster Cable proceeds with litigation against me I will pursue the same merits-driven approach; I do not compromise with bullies and I would rather spend fifty thousand dollars on defense than give you a dollar of unmerited settlement funds. As for signing a licensing agreement for intellectual property which I have not infringed: that will not happen, under any circumstances, whether it makes economic sense or not."


"t may be that my inability to see the pragmatic value of settling frivolous claims is a deep character flaw, and I am sure a few of the insurance carriers for whom I have done work have seen it that way; but it is how I have done business for the last quarter-century and you are not going to change my mind. If you sue me, the case will go to judgment, and I will hold the court's attention upon the merits of your claims--or, to speak more precisely, the absence of merit from your claims--from start to finish. Not only am I unintimidated by litigation; I sometimes rather miss it."

This is solid gold.
 
pmac

pmac

Junior Audioholic
It was a great read. I hate all the lawsuits flying around these days. One more reason that ALL my future interconnects will not be from the overpriced monster, and moreso WILL be with Blue Jeans like my last 3 or 4 cables.

Give 'em hell!
 
M

mudrummer99

Senior Audioholic
Now all I have to do is talk my wife into letting me replace all of my interconnects with BJC's. But seriously, in my current occupation (BB) since this came out, and at great risk to my own job, I have either recommended everything but Monster cable, or in a few examples where we brought up Monster's business practices (mentioned by the customer over the "Monster" name lawsuits) I would tell them about this little altercation and send them to BJC. If I could do more and still be employed, you'd better believe I would be. I think it's funny they sent Kurt 5 different patent drawings saying, from my interpretation, that he was taking different aspects of each one and putting them into his Tartan line. I challenge someone to find 5 drawings for design patents that you CANNOT match different aspects of Monster cable's design, and by their logic infringing upon other's IP. That's my response. Thanks for reading.

Mike
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
Has anyone read of any reaction from Monster? Any rebuttals? They might be planning their next move, or they're a bit bewildered with the publicity their little "scare" tactic has generated.
 
Thaedium

Thaedium

Audioholic
Jinjuku kinda beat me to it, and was perhaps a bit sharp I think for a first time poster here.


I read the entire letter and will agree that the author of it is an educated man, but then I have a habit of reducing long winded diatribes into a Reader Digest version. It seems to me that he said that Monster didn't supply enough proof that there was an infringement and asked for more information specific to the claim.
The problem with your readers digest version of events is that it does gloss over many pertinent components of Mr. Denke's response. And this quote is one such. Mr Denke said that he looked at all five patents that Monster supplied and that in his opinion none of them resembled any of his products beyond functionally required elements common to the cable itself. Furtherer, the one that resembled closest to his product was an expired patent. This is just a portion of his position which is required to be absorbed by Monster's lawyers so that there is no mistaking the depth of understanding and preparedness that Mr. Denke posses in this specific matter. Indeed, his very position is formed based in part by how Monster brought their arguements to him in the first place. His assement of the information provided to him in order to support Monster's claim was lacking significantly, and could in its nature undermine when studied thoroughly Monster's Position. This is what sets the tone for Mr Denke's response. The patents cited by Monster in their letter to him and the seriousness of the claims appear to Mr. Denke to conflict, and gives the appearance of Bully Tactics designed to confuse and obsfucate matters to the average joe who isn't familiar with that area of the law. This is important information your condensed version completely bypasses and could lead to quick and frivolous opinions of whats going on. The appearance of Bully Tactics is what instigated Mr. Denke's lengthy response, and arguably required it. He needed to communicate in a way that clearly indicates that if the claims in the first place are in fact Bully Tactics by Monster then he has seen through the guise of uncorrelated patent documents and a serious claim. Perhaps not such an easy thing to do in words without being ignorantly blunt, and perhaps as a matter of professional courtesy Mr. Denke chose not to be so ignorant. Further, he gave form to his position in defending his products in a methodical and thorough dissection of Monster's claims as supported by their own documentation to date. And that in his assessment of those materials, their claim, if not supported by more enlightening material is frivolous. It is important to note that the more thorough and nuanced Mr. Denke's response to Monster sends a clear and concise message to Monsters legal team, and that is simply; "I know what I'm about, do you?".


Lastly, he informs them that in the end, if they do win the litigation, they will never recover the loss of their legal fees so from a financial standpoint it would be in their best interest to drop the entire matter.
This statement taken out of the complete context of Mr. Denke's response gives rise to the impression that he is trying to make the issue unappealing based not on the merrits of the case but by the burden and headaches of legal action. A monetary thing that most people believe undermine any ethical or morale position of Mr. Denke's. When anything could be further from the truth. It is based on the merrits of his defence that he believes as he does and that as such, litigation would be the only recourse in his view if Monster cannot provide more enlightening documentation regarding their claims, as he will not at this stage comply with Monster's request. Hence when he says that the loss of legal fees would not be recovered should Monster's be the winner in litigation, he is reinforcing his view or perhaps feel of what I said earlier regarding the notion of a Bully Tactics. Monster's lawyers are clearly aware of the costs of such litigation, a fact Mr. Denke is clearly aware of and because he brings up the issue in the manner he does, it is a fairly clear statement, without being unprofessional and unsophisticated, that if their request is frivolous as it seems to a former lawyer in IP litigation, he is not confused in any way and he will not be scared into compliance.


The solution is very simple. If there is an infringement, then monster should prove it and Blue Jeans Cable should make the changes necessary to correct it. No need to take this to court and no money should change hands.
To the former part of this you are absolutely correct. However in the latter section is off base here. The whole reason for this in the first place is an issue of money changing hands. Monster would like nothing more then to evince to us that Tartan products are either distorting and harming the integrity of a Monster product, or that in some way Tartan cables by emulating the design of Monster Products is profiting without paying tribute to Monster. As such, it is without a doubt that in some way Monster has decided that based on what they believe they should be compensated in some way. In Mr. Denke's case, it is not solely dependent on the issue of money. His principles as a business owner are being called to question by the very allegation (if one is to be made in any case), something that could certainly harm such a small word-of-mouth orientated business. Further, when it appears to him that this whole issue appears to be a way of Bullying him into making him give Monster his hard earned money when he feels he owes them nothing of the sort. Such a tactic is morally reprehensible and as such elicits a strong reaction from Mr. Denke in the form of his response. Its important to note that to Mr. Denke, the potential financial legal losses to himself is much less then whatever it will be for Monster, and that to him win or lose in court, it is worth the price whatever it may be to stand up to such a disreputable tactic of any company trying to swindle him of his hard earned money. This calling of Monsters bluff so well structured and public is an attempt by Mr. Denke to prevent any changing of hands with the Money, and clearly define his companies business principles to those avidly following the outcome of this.

If it does go to court, then the looser should pay all legal fees for both parties.
I'm not certain here, though im fairly certain that if the arguement is feasible enough to merrit a trial then the winner suffers to pay their own legal costs. Unless of course the very burden of the costs is damaging enough to put the winner in peril. In which case, then I'm fairly certain that that is another course of legal action to be persued outside of the initial cases scope and influence. AKA counter-suit. Atleast thats been my observations from the several times ive been in court to defend myself, though I'm nowhere near qualified to say of a certainty, its just my gut feeling.

In any case, I'm not trying to take you to task for creating a readers digest of Mr. Denke's response, merely saying that by doing so you corrupt the intended effect of the full version. And that full version itself is complicated and nuanced enough to create misunderstanding to us average joes that will inevitably lead to heated debates, imagine the debates to arise from a too simplified and potentially misleading synopsis would create.

In any case, welcome to the board. Hopefully you're not insulted and stick around.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
... Second, he makes claims against Monster which questions their business practices. I understand that he is just letting them know that he is aware of their methods which he implies is leaning toward the unethical.
Do you know about Monster's business practices? It has been going on for a very long time.
They intimidate everyone who dares to use the word Monster in their business name, no matter how far removed they may be from making or selling audio cables, be it snow bunnies, vintage costumes or clothing, Disney with their Monster named movies, then try to have these entities sigh a licensing agreement, including Disney who did.
They intimidate by size.
 
S

stevensurprenan

Audiophyte
Do you know about Monster's business practices? It has been going on for a very long time.
They intimidate everyone who dares to use the word Monster in their business name, no matter how far removed they may be from making or selling audio cables, be it snow bunnies, vintage costumes or clothing, Disney with their Monster named movies, then try to have these entities sigh a licensing agreement, including Disney who did.
They intimidate by size.
I was not aware of Monsters reputation, but I am learning.
 

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