My misadventures with HDMI and why it should be dragged out back and shot

[The Chukker]

I hate HDMI. I've said it in the past and I will continue to say it until the powers that be make what is advertised as a "simple, easy to configure, all in one" interface exactly that. I am continually frustrated by HDMI and I encourage you to post your experiences here as well (hell, in the off chance you have had a positive experience with this little bastard please by all means post ).

How I miss the halcyon days of Digital Coax/DVI >sigh<

Contention 1: Nothing talks to each other with HDMI
Ever see that late night commercial for some random long distance phone carrier? You know, the three paneled one with a dude from India, an Asian woman, and a Native African man, each talking at a phone booth and laughing?
Yeah, they're talking to each other except they don't know what the f_ck each other is saying.
That would be the average HDMI experience.
No matter what I do, I cannot get my Denon 2910 DVD/SACD (HDMI ver 1.1) to shake hands with my Denon 3808 receiver (ver 1.3a) over HDMI. Rather than bitstream dts or DD in its native form, it is converted (or perhaps decoded at the 3808) to PCM. I was going to post this thread last night but I wanted to make sure this hadn't been solved with a firmware upgrade. Upgraded firmware for both the 2910 and the 3808, still no dice.
I know there are some of you who will say, who cares? PCM sounds just fine. Problem is, I only get 5 flags (+- a LFE) flag at the receiver end, even with dts-es sources -- so the SB channel is at best matrixed. Yup, so here I am with this fancy new receiver and I still have to use a coax cable to get an "uncompromised" digital audio signal.

Contention 2: HDMI is unpredictable (and not in a good way)
I had a Pioneer Elite BD player (BDP 95-FD) that performed reasonably well (ok, it was slow to load) that shook hands with my Samsung display (6189S LED); 1080p/24 native with all BD's -- nice! Then when I wanted to upgrade to the Denon 2500 BCTI I took home the unit and no matter what I did I could not get it to auto detect my panels' ability to display 1080p/24. In fact, the option was completely grayed out. So I reluctantly took it back.
I recently decided to go with the Panny 30 when I thought that the Pioneer went tits up. Turns out the cable was damaged -- the Panny gave me a troubleshooting code on the front panel that said so.
The Pioneer did not.
Thank you Panasonic for saving me the hassle of calling up Magnolia in home service only to find out it was a cable issue.
By the way, the Panny 30 performs awesome and is half the price of the Pioneer.
Sadly though, it too does not shake hands with my display for 1080p/24 despite it clearly being able to do so. The option is grayed out.
Perhaps I need to upgrade the firmware for the television, but I need an external USB device to do so; anybody got an extra one lying around?
I can only imagine what the average joe must think when he/she runs into this kind of bullsh!t. Which leads me to...

Contention 3: HDMI confuses the consumer
Version 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.3a, firmware upgrades, hardware incompatibilties, ever changing blu-ray profiles, etcetera ad nauseum.
I am reasonably well informed but HDMI makes my head spin. Let's talk about how HDMI has made me look like a complete idiot.
Some of you may remember my rant a few weeks back when I went berserk about how New Line BD's that claimed to be dts-ma 7.1 were actually dts-ma 5.1?
I was wrong.
Turns out it was the Pioneer that was having the issues (and yes, I had the latest firmware installed). Even though I got 7 flags (+ the LFE channel) on the New Line teaser at the beginning of the disc, during movie playback I could only get 5 flags (+ the LFE channel).
Imagine my surprise when I got my new Panny 30 home the other day and WTF? 7 flags (+ the LFE channel) dts-ma on Pan's Labyrinth...during >gasp< movie playback.
Happy and disgusted at the same time.

Draw whatever conclusions you want from my personal experiences with the one cable nirvana called HDMI; I'm curious to hear your stories.
Hell, something positive might just be the tonic I need.

As for now however, HDMI: I hate you. With all of my black heart.
Sincerely, chux

 

[jostenmeat]

I feel for ya. Sorry man. I agree that it's pretty silly that we have to worry about any of this stuff. HDMI must be an enormous headache for a lot of companies, let alone consumers.

I do remember that former post about Pan's only having 5.1, though I didn't recall it was you. I was pretty curious about that to say the least. (random comment, I was a bit disappointed with this transfer. There's a thread that claims the UK version is superior w/ better bit-rate, though w/o the 7.1 track, IIRC).

I count myself pretty lucky. My Tosh HD-A35 and Pana BD-30 both are successfully outputting all formats, 24fps, no handshake issues thru a refurbed Onkyo 805 to my open-box PJ. I've had only one problematic viewing on either format, and with the HD player, the same disc did not replicate the dropout. I haven't replayed the problematic BD yet, being Sunshine. I've watched double digit movies in both formats.

I should knock on wood. I hope the receiver holds up, because I've only heard nightmares about Onkyo's CS. Ok, just knocked on wood.

I love my rig and am happy it's working as well as it is. IIRC, something I'm sure you know, the Pana Bd-30 cannot force 24 fps.

 

[Haoleb]

Not a fan of HDMI either.

I'll continue to stick with Component and Coaxial Digital. Always works and Performance is just as good IMO.

 

[TLS Guy]

I hate HDMI. I've said it in the past and I will continue to say it until the powers that be make what is advertised as a "simple, easy to configure, all in one" interface exactly that. I am continually frustrated by HDMI and I encourage you to post your experiences here as well (hell, in the off chance you have had a positive experience with this little bastard please by all means post ).

How I miss the halcyon days of Digital Coax/DVI >sigh<

Contention 1: Nothing talks to each other with HDMI
Ever see that late night commercial for some random long distance phone carrier? You know, the three paneled one with a dude from India, an Asian woman, and a Native African man, each talking at a phone booth and laughing?
Yeah, they're talking to each other except they don't know what the f_ck each other is saying.
That would be the average HDMI experience.
No matter what I do, I cannot get my Denon 2910 DVD/SACD (HDMI ver 1.1) to shake hands with my Denon 3808 receiver (ver 1.3a) over HDMI. Rather than bitstream dts or DD in its native form, it is converted (or perhaps decoded at the 3808) to PCM. I was going to post this thread last night but I wanted to make sure this hadn't been solved with a firmware upgrade. Upgraded firmware for both the 2910 and the 3808, still no dice.
I know there are some of you who will say, who cares? PCM sounds just fine. Problem is, I only get 5 flags (+- a LFE) flag at the receiver end, even with dts-es sources -- so the SB channel is at best matrixed. Yup, so here I am with this fancy new receiver and I still have to use a coax cable to get an "uncompromised" digital audio signal.

Contention 2: HDMI is unpredictable (and not in a good way)
I had a Pioneer Elite BD player (BDP 95-FD) that performed reasonably well (ok, it was slow to load) that shook hands with my Samsung display (6189S LED); 1080p/24 native with all BD's -- nice! Then when I wanted to upgrade to the Denon 2500 BCTI I took home the unit and no matter what I did I could not get it to auto detect my panels' ability to display 1080p/24. In fact, the option was completely grayed out. So I reluctantly took it back.
I recently decided to go with the Panny 30 when I thought that the Pioneer went tits up. Turns out the cable was damaged -- the Panny gave me a troubleshooting code on the front panel that said so.
The Pioneer did not.
Thank you Panasonic for saving me the hassle of calling up Magnolia in home service only to find out it was a cable issue.
By the way, the Panny 30 performs awesome and is half the price of the Pioneer.
Sadly though, it too does not shake hands with my display for 1080p/24 despite it clearly being able to do so. The option is grayed out.
Perhaps I need to upgrade the firmware for the television, but I need an external USB device to do so; anybody got an extra one lying around?
I can only imagine what the average joe must think when he/she runs into this kind of bullsh!t. Which leads me to...

Contention 3: HDMI confuses the consumer
Version 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.3a, firmware upgrades, hardware incompatibilties, ever changing blu-ray profiles, etcetera ad nauseum.
I am reasonably well informed but HDMI makes my head spin. Let's talk about how HDMI has made me look like a complete idiot.
Some of you may remember my rant a few weeks back when I went berserk about how New Line BD's that claimed to be dts-ma 7.1 were actually dts-ma 5.1?
I was wrong.
Turns out it was the Pioneer that was having the issues (and yes, I had the latest firmware installed). Even though I got 7 flags (+ the LFE channel) on the New Line teaser at the beginning of the disc, during movie playback I could only get 5 flags (+ the LFE channel).
Imagine my surprise when I got my new Panny 30 home the other day and WTF? 7 flags (+ the LFE channel) dts-ma on Pan's Labyrinth...during >gasp< movie playback.
Happy and disgusted at the same time.

Draw whatever conclusions you want from my personal experiences with the one cable nirvana called HDMI; I'm curious to hear your stories.
Hell, something positive might just be the tonic I need.

As for now however, HDMI: I hate you. With all of my black heart.
Sincerely, chux

I have been ranting about this, also, in numerous posts. I agree completely with everything you have to say.

There is nothing wrong with HDMI. It is the HDCP digital rights management codes that were added on top.

This lousy system was developed by Intel and licensed by Digitla content protection LLP

http://www.digital-cp.com/

At may last count there were 9 versions of HDMI and a number of errata updates over and above that.

This system was known to be fundamentally flawed since inception. Despite that the FCC signed off on it a DRM system. This despite erudite papers showing the system and codes were fundamentally flawed and easily cracked, which they have been.

This whole fiasco was demanded by the unsatisfactory individuals, with well oiled flies and loose skirts, who populate Hollywood. As soon as the code is cracked they want another version and the insanity continues. This election season, we need to lobby for a Federal ban on DRM schemes. If Hollywood don't like it, then they can just release the films to the theaters and skip the discs. See how long they would keep that up.

This organization and other are trying to defeat this DRM nonsense.

http://www.eff.org/issues/digital-video

Now the management of the electronic magazine, especially Clint De Boer are sympathetic to this evil.

Now every body who reads this thread voice your objections, and start to do something about it!

 

[supervij]

I don't have much gear, but HDMI has worked exeptionally well with my Oppo 981, but not so much with my SA 8300HD PVR. Using HDMI from that HD PVR to my TV and setting the output to passthrough (apparently the highest quality setting), my TV flips out whenever there's a change of resolution from channel to channel. It gives me a screen full of snow and I have to cycle through the TV's inputs to get a picture. Using component cables, however, with a setting of passthrough, the TV does the mad scramble for a second, but then I get the picture just fine. So I've left the component cables hooked up. Unfortunately, the SA 8300HD can't pass blacker than black over component, but it will over HDMI. Fortunately, I can't really see much difference.

cheers,
supervij

 

[mouettus]

Previous poster was right about HDCP being the problem, not HDMI. Actually my only rant about HDMI itself is the connector that is sometimes loose and can bend and break easily.

My bad experience is with Scientific Atlanta as well. What a piece of **** company/equipment. Everytime I turn all of my equipment on, I have to start with the tv, wait till there is a "no signal" box. Then comes the receiver, wait till the "click" (switching). And then I turn on the cable box. If I fail to do so, it doesn't handshake with anything so it thinks I'm trying to copy the signal. So there is a big black box in the center of the screen saying "COPY Protection. The YPrPb output is blocked. Press Exit". Funny now. I didn't program any exit buttons on my yammie remote so I have to dig out the old box just to get the remote and press exit.

I have no problems switching channels in passthrough though. Sorry supervij! lol

 

[Alex2507]

My biggest HDMI assache was not having it on my display. It did have DVI though. Gear is listed in sig. So I spend a bunch of time figuring out that I can get a cable with HDMI at one end and DVI-D at the other. Then I spend more time finding one on e-Bay for $90 (huge savings ) . After it doesn't work I find out about HDCP. Sheesh! WTF!

The upside is that having recently bought a HDMI HDCP compliant TV, I was able to plug my DVD player into it with 1 cable (BJC) and do calibrations, run a break-in disc and watch a movie. $2,000.00 later and I'm finally able to watch an up converted movie...Wait a minute, maybe that's not the upside.

 

[stratman]

Panny plasma almost 4 years old.

Panny surround receiver 1 year old.

Panny DVD player 3 years old.

Direct TV HD receiver 7 months old.

All connected via HDMI alone, no handshake problems. Maybe I'm lucky.

 

[MUDSHARK]

You are lucky, Strat. These handshake problems using the A2 are a real pain. The Scientific Atlanta HDDVR cable box I gave up on and just use component and optical. Funny but the Onkyo dvd player I gave to my son when replaced by the A2 never had handshake problems. The worst part of all this is my wife rarely watches a DVD anymore or goes in the bedroom and watchs it on the 26 inch tube TV. I'm about ready to ditch the whole uncompressed audio and use component and optical with the A2.

 

[bandphan]

My comcast hd box and ps3 are the only hdmi connected components, with my old mitsu 883 their were no issues. With the pio1150 i get pixelation within the comcast hd box from vod, back to tv, and dvr(although minor). I thought it was strange that i had no issues going through my pio receiver to the mitsu, but i did going to the pio tv. Have the dvd player running component, optical, and 6ch analog because it had sacd and video output issues.

 

[Hi Ho]

I have not had any trouble with HDMI at all. My own equipment (in signature) has worked flawlessly and is all connected with HDMI (except the VCR, of course ). Even my PC works through my receiver with a DVI>HDMI adapter with no issues.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have not had any trouble with HDMI at all. My own equipment (in signature) has worked flawlessly and is all connected with HDMI (except the VCR, of course ). Even my PC works through my receiver with a DVI>HDMI adapter with no issues.

You are very lucky, because issues abound. When I redid my father's system I had a terrible time, and had to change out equipment. We just could do without this HDCP code nonsense.

I'm going to keep as far away from, for as long as I can.

 

[davo]

The only gear that runs HDMI for me at the moment is between my Pioneer plasma and my Integra 7.8. I haven't been able to stretch it's legs yet since I only have a SD source for the DVD's, and I run high def free-to air content directly to the Pioneer with the optical looping back to the Integra for the Dolby Digital mix. No problems at all.

My HDMI cable is 1.3 compliant and 2m long, and the Integra and Pioneer are 1.3 as well if it's any help.

I have to admit I was worried about the hand shake issue when getting the amp and tv.

 

[sparky77]

HDMI=the corporate expectancy to control the right to duplicate media. Its sad enough that they couldn't even set a standard with tho one cable to end all solution so that the people that invest the money in sacd and dvda could benefit from the higher bitrates to appease the golden ears. It's about time that the corporations hear from people with realistic goals that we wont try to copy their crap when it doesn't even benefit us. Come on, lets get real here, there hasn't been a decent movie since christmas and none of those are even worth a blank dvd, and most of the new music doesn't sound any different between the highest resolution music media and the crappy dowloaded mp3's from any of the leading music distribution sites. I recently spent 20 bucks on a new movie only for sony to invade my computer and be thwarted by zonealarm.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43164

 

[Audioholics]

HDMI and HDCP are the problem.

HDCP because it's so darn demanding

HDMI because it took until this year for them to get their act together and put the HDCP details into the ATC spec (what tells the manufacturers how to deal with everything-HDMI on a very detailed level).

Until this year HDMI Licensing told everyone (essentially) to "go read the HDCP spec yourself and figure it out."

 

[davidtwotrees]

No hdmi problems here........ain't got no hdmi.

 

[EJ1]

I ordered some of these: http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10419&cs_id=1041907&p_id=3733&seq=1&format=2

Both 90 and 270 to fit my application. Hopefully, it takes some of the stress off.

 

[The Chukker]

Well, there it is...

HDMI and HDCP are the problem.

HDCP because it's so darn demanding

HDMI because it took until this year for them to get their act together and put the HDCP details into the ATC spec (what tells the manufacturers how to deal with everything-HDMI on a very detailed level).

Until this year HDMI Licensing told everyone (essentially) to "go read the HDCP spec yourself and figure it out."

It is what it is folks; those of you who don't have any issues with current spec count yourself blessed. For the rest of us (especially us early adopters with significant technical issues), it is what is is; we reap what the masses sow down the line -- I b!tch about the fact that I had a LOT more to brag about and hold over J.Q. public in the past -- the fact of the matter is is that there is very little qualitative difference between what could be achieved in the last generation of audio/video and what is presented now with 1080p & 7.1 uncompressed audio. You would think that with with such a great "leap" in audio/visual fidelity there would also be a corresponding leap in user friendliness.
Yeah, f_cking right.

 

[stratman]

It is what it is folks; those of you who don't have any issues with current spec count yourself blessed. For the rest of us (especially us early adopters with significant technical issues), it is what is is; we reap what the masses sow down the line -- I b!tch about the fact that I had a LOT more to brag about and hold over J.Q. public in the past -- the fact of the matter is is that there is very little qualitative difference between what could be achieved in the last generation of audio/video and what is presented now with 1080p & 7.1 uncompressed audio. You would think that with with such a great "leap" in audio/visual fidelity there would also be a corresponding leap in user friendliness.
Yeah, f_cking right.

Yup, I would say a great leap was made in marketing and phantom specs, real world progress, meh. HDMI is becoming the catchword salespeople use to push merchandise to the unwary, along with "hi def", and Blu-ray.

 

[mouettus]

Yup, I would say a great leap was made in marketing and phantom specs, real world progress, meh. HDMI is becoming the catchword salespeople use to push merchandise to the unwary, along with "hi def", and Blu-ray.

You got that right! HD is the cool word nowadays for marketing. You know what I saw the other day? HD EYEGLASSES! lollll. I didn't know our vision had a definition. Is it interlaced or progressive? Then I hope it supports HDMI 1.3! lol