Thinking bout a projector again... got a ? or 2..

itschris

itschris

Moderator
I just got back from the cabinet guys who were making my console for the Mits 65833 65" DLP I've been planning on getting. Well they, pretty much doubled their price on the quote they gave me so I'm looking at about $2.5K for the console. The wife looks at me and says, can we just hang a tv on the wall instead.

So, I'm back to looking at LCD's and projectors. I want at least a 60" picture, and I have yet to find anything less that $5K for a quality 1080P LCD. Figure $2400 for the Mit DLP and say about 2K for the console, that puts me sorda in that price range I guess.

I started thinking front projection again. I was looking at the Epson PowerLite Pro Cinema 1080 which is going for about $3k and I figure another $750 for a 70" screen. The distance from wall to wall is just about 14' so I think that size would be good without sacrificing a lot of brightness. I guess my questions are:

1) Assuming reasonable room light control, how does the quality of the picture compare to a good DLP tv like the Mits 65833? Will I be giving up a superior picture?

2) Can you really use or should you really use a projector for everyday viewing or is it really just for more critical use?

I'm at the price point where I think I could go either way and could really use some advice.
 
itschris

itschris

Moderator
I was just at Sam's and they have a 65" Olevia LCD 1080P for $3K. I did some quick research on it, the company seems to be struggling, but the TV seems to be okay. It's not 100% on par with the finest of LCD sets, but the consensus seems to be that it's a pretty decent tv on it's own, but the price makes it a sure grab. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Hello again.

$750 seems like a lot for such a small screen. Maybe you're thinking a top of the line AT screen or something. Not that I know the price of a 70" SMX, but $750 is about the price of a 159" DaLite HP.

I would not get a FP at only 70". The "compromises" would no longer be worth it to me at that size. I also would be personally wary of an LCD at that size as well. I would either opt for plasma or some sort of RP.

Now, back to your questions:

1) IMO, my FP looks better than any DLP I've ever seen. The one thing that DLP's, or a lot of TVs, have on my FP is "smoother looking" large-scale pans, but its probably model-specific. While I did pay 3k, similar to your budget, I did achieve a great bargain. So that being said, the colors and blacks look superior to me on my FP, and I get to enjoy more of what 1080p has to offer at increased size. You just can't beat immersion with this scale of screen size.

2) Personal choice. I don't. If you think of the cost of bulbs with everyday, constant viewing, you'll have spent as much in bulbs in a couple of years to afford a modest 42" plasma. Also, if you are half the videophile of some nuts I've met, you'd be recalibrating pretty often at 8 hours a day. Maybe every month. FWIW, there are a few who enjoy daytime FP viewing with a Dalite HP screen. I only have BluRay and HD-DVD connected, with night viewing exclusively. I may try an OTA connection some day in the future. I'm pretty sure most cable or sat feeds would look terrible on a really large screen due to compression. Just an educated guess.

IMO, if you are considering FP, then do it. But, Id get a whole lot bigger than 70" that's for sure. As I already stated in your other thread before at this sub-forum, 12 ft viewing distance requires 107" to meet THX recommended 36 deg angle. IMO, its a rather perfect viewing angle, is not overkill, and I just might prefer even a tad closer than that.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41713

You're welcome.
 
itschris

itschris

Moderator
Thanks for getting back to me. The screen wall is only about a 95" wide. The 65" dlp looked huge in the room already (when my neighbor and I carried his over just to see). Is the 107" diagonal or a width measurements. I think the widest width I really go would be about 70", but that's about a 80" diagonal. I guess my question is, why would a 55" or 65" dlp be okay, but a 80" projected image too small? I know it's not optimal, but would I not be better off with a bigger display from a good quality projecter vs a smaller display (65") from a dlp?

Also, why do you have to recalibrate the projector all the time?
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
95" wide will get you 36 deg. To be exact, 93.6" wide, or 107.4" diagonal on a 16:9 screen. Please remember that viewing angle is a personal preference. The 55" or 65" dlp is ok, because that's as big as they get. OK, Ive seen a 72" or something. You have no choice in the matter, so might as well be "ok". If they made a 107" DLP, then sure go for it, but that's going to look like one serious monster in the living room!

So coming from a 72" DLP, an 80" FP, In My Opinion, is not enough of an increase in screen size to warrant hassling with ambient light. At 107", IMO, it IS worth the hassle!

Regarding recalibration, as FP bulbs burn out much more quickly, the colors will actually change over time. Ive heard that some folks re-cal as often as every 200 hours. If you watched a 2-hr movie every night, that would come out to about 3 calibrations a year. And I think with each re-cal, the process would get easier or more familiar, so that you could possibly do it within 10 minutes or something. That's just a total guess, as I've only done it once, and probably took a solid half hour. (Had to follow instructions carefully). :p
 
itschris

itschris

Moderator
Okay, I get what you're saying... it makes sense. It's not optimum by any means, but my wall just literally isn't big enough since it's the short wall of the room that angles off back to the eat in breakfast area off the kitchen. It used to be the fourth set of triple glass doors leading out to the pool area. The other wall is the long wall that spans straight through and continues to the kitchen area which is really large with a bar area and what not. The short wall has really only about 100" max of usable wall space and the way the back hallway shoots off to the office in the back of the house, there even has to be a slight bias on that short wall towards the kitchen area. It's just not ideal for a super large screen, but I think I still would rather have an 75 or 80" diagonal screen vs a 65" DLP given about the same total cost and overall quality of picture. Certainly the recurring cost and recalibration is something to think about.

I'm gonna go back to Sam's Club tomorrow and check out that Olevia 65" LCD again. I've read about 15 pages of posts on it over at the AVS forum. For $3K, it almost seems like a no brainer. It does have some shortcommings, but so does the DLP, the projector setup, and anything else short of a $7500 to $10K setup. I might just throw that up on the wall and forget about it.
 
I

InTheIndustry

Senior Audioholic
This is an interesting situation that I really think is location specific.

I would rarely, if ever, recommend a front projection system for someone's living room or main floor "TV". I just feel that they're almost too massive and possibly obtrusive to integrate into everyday living spaces for most people.

Now, if this is for a basement and this is going to be the main display in a large area or if you are going to have a "day" set up with a flat panel & a "night" set up with a recessed drop-down screen, then I say go for it! We do that all the time for our clients. Modest flat panel up stairs & a killer FP set up downstairs (or combine them both for the Day/Night option). The trick, though, is to find something to use with the lights on.

You stated an under $5K budget w/ 1080P.

I just demo'd and was very much wow'd by the BenQ W5000. I feel that DLP offers a much much better picture over LCD projectors. The BENQ's street price is around $3K - $2500 and I've seen it online for around $2200ish (not authorized). This is replacing the Mitsubishi 4900 as my company's entry level projector. It left a very strong impression on me and I feel it's value is incredible, particularly when put up against the LCD pieces occupying the same market space.

Now, your screen is going to be the tricky part! In the open basement or rec area scenario I referenced above we usually go with a product called X-Screen from Planar. It works well in areas where there's natural sunlight (no direct sunlight shining on screen, though) and EXTREMELY well in areas where there's canned lighting or lamp light. I love the X-Screen for a huge basement theatre or area where you might want to sit down and watch TV on a huge screen. Biggest problem with it: Narrow viewing "cone". You really can't get way off to the side of X-Screen. It's a great solution if you're sitting in front of the screen and not way off to the side. The sizes range from 60", 70", 80" & 100". The 70" (MSRP: $1700) or 80" ($2K) would be the way to go for you if this were an option based on your needs. Esthetically the screen looks like a big plasma frame. Gloss black frame (like a flat panel) with a thin layer of silvery/gray coating on the actual screen part. While $2K sounds lke a lot for a screen you have to remember that it DOES a lot and designed for special applications that your typical mat white screen can't function in.

http://www.planarhometheater.com/xscreen/

Asuming you get the projector @ $2500 (which is typical) and the 80" screen @ $2K (there's margin enough so that you can bargain for a better deal). You'll come in under your $4500.

I don't know if it would fit your needs or not, but there's what i would do on your budget if i wanted FP in an area that may or may not have the lights on.

A TV option to really consider is the LG 60PC1D. It's a 720P/1080i 60" plasma. I used to own one (I switch my gear out almost weekly) and think it's an excelent value. I actually kept this for about 6 months because I liked it so much and had nothing compelling me to change it out. I really loved it! I'm an LG dealer and after owning this and intalling/selling the other LG 60" 1080P models I think that hands down this 720P/1080i piece is the way to go. I just failed to see any real world discernable difference between the different 1080i & P pieces when viewed at proper seating distances. The 60PC1D peformed incredibly well with HD DVD, DirecTV HD, and over the air HD. The nephews brough their Xbox 360 over and played games on it and that too was really impressive. Standard def programs were very good as well and standard def DVD was excellent.

Under NO circumstances would I buy the Olivia TV.
 
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itschris

itschris

Moderator
Under NO circumstances would I buy the Olivia TV.
Thanks for the advice. I sat down last night and again this morning already staring at the space (which still isn't finished being remodeled) and have come to the final conclusion that my dream of a pj is dead for good. The room, our family life, just wouldn't be condusive to the setup and no amount of wishing or "mental body english" is going to change it.

I'm curious about the strong opinion on the new Olevia. I don't want anything smaller than 65" so that leaves me with DLP or LCD. I've read over at AVS that while the tv has some compromises, it's overall quite a good tv with a great picture.. add to that the cost of only $3k, it's not a bad deal.

My thought is, I can't really have what I want: I want a 65" or larger picture with the best possible picture - litttle or no compromises. One, I don't think that exists (especially since a pj won't work for my room) and two - if it did exist, I couldn't afford it probably.

That leaves me going with a smaller tv, more like 55-57" with perhaps a better picture, but one that still has some issues like they all do, or getting the Olevia which in reality will be so much better than what I already have that I probably don't care if it's not perfect. My only other choice is back to the Mits DLP 65833 along with spending $2k for a piece of furniture to hold it and be nice enough looking in the room since we have nicer stuff and cna't get by with budget style furniture.

At the same time, the only really "critical" viewing will be when the wife and I can sit and watch a DVD on the weekend perhaps. Beyond that, my daughter will be the biggest beneficiary. So maybe, I'm just getting to wrapped up in squeezing out the last bit of value or quality and making myself crazy about this when i don't really need to.

The reality is that right now, I watch movies on a 31" in my bedroom. So redoing this family room with the new Def Techs, the Elite 94txh, blu-ray, and maybe the Olevia, would be light years from where I'm at now.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yeah, for a living room, I would just go with a 65" Mitsubishi DLP 1080p for about $1,900 or a 73" for about $2,400.

http://www.amazon.com/Mitsubishi-WD-73733-73-inch-1080p-HDTV/dp/B000P5A8D4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1206209581&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.com/Mitsubishi-WD-65734-65-inch-1080p-HDTV/dp/B000RIWEN6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1206209581&sr=1-1

I would also get a cradenza/TV stand. I got mine (black w/ 2 glass doors) for $150 online. This one is similar, but more expensive:

http://www.racksandstands.com/Tech-Craft-ABS60-TC0201.html

Projector's picture will never look as good as these 2 DLPs.

The only trade-off is the giant screen of a projector, but the picture quality will never be as good.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
itschris, have you considered an electric screen? It can also be recessed into the ceiling. You can have pictures, etc, small flat panel on the wall. Movie time, drop it down. Also a ceiling mounted pj can have a "base" of sorts so that you don't even see the unit.

Projector's picture will never look as good as these 2 DLPs.

The only trade-off is the giant screen of a projector, but the picture quality will never be as good.
That's interesting to me because my pj looks better than any dlp that Ive ever seen, whether Samsung, Mits, Pana, etc. And I don't have a 20k projector, or 10k cinemascope, or 10k automated masking system, or 4k Radiance XD. Heck, I'm still working on light control. My pj is 3 panel LCOS, and its not even the best model in the line.

But maybe you know something I don't.

itschris, be wary of older Mits models. I am presuming they designed newer models differently than their faulty models due to class action law suits. There are some models that were made with an "auto-on" feature of sorts, basically never really turning off and causing a lot of problems. There's a CNET
Mitsubishi DLP Television WD-57831 Class Action Lawsuit thread.
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-7596_102-0.html?forumID=60&threadID=257865&messageID=2548435

Due to the "auto-on" feature, they used a lot of energy while off:
Watts off!
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-7596_102-0.html?forumID=60&threadID=249269

You were warned!
 
itschris

itschris

Moderator
The only stands that I've seen that would fit well in our room, accomodate the size of the center channel are the BDI Avion at about $1500. Everything else is either to wide, too narrow, too small for the center, or just not the right style for the room. I've seen a few others for $2K and up, but I just don't want to spend that much money for a stand.

I just looked at the new 65" Olevia again at Sams, had them hook up the Sony Blu-Ray and picture looked pretty darn good. Spiderman had some motion artifacts on the long panning scenes, but I was standing about 2 ft away really eyeballing the picture and I've seen that same disc on the Mits 65833 DLP when I was checking those out and saw similar issues. I don't that any but the very highest end tv's can play the most strenuous scenes without some issues.

I can get up to 4 year extended warranty for a couple hundred bucks through Sams through a 3rd party so I'm not too terribly concerned. It turns out all the flat panels we have at our office, I work at a large international brokerage firm, are all Olevias and they're on about 12 hours a day 6 days a week in the meeting areas. They've been up there for about 3 years. I talked to our media group earlier this morning while I was there at the office and they told me they've had zero issues. Oddly enough, the Sony flat panel in my conference room has been replaced twice in the last year so I guess it really is just the luck of the draw.

In some respects, I'm trying to talk myself into this tv, but at the same time, I don't think it's junk and for the money, if it totally craps out in 2 or 3 years, I've only spent $3k, less than half of what a 65" Panny costs.
 
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I

InTheIndustry

Senior Audioholic
Projector's picture will never look as good as these 2 DLPs.

The only trade-off is the giant screen of a projector, but the picture quality will never be as good.
I'm sorry, AcuDefTechGuy, but that's not correct in the least (and I'm understating the point).

I'm a Mits TV dealer (we primarily do the Diamond Series) and would rather have the picture from something entry level like the BenQ I listed in my earlier post than ANY DLP TV out there, including the Mits stuff (the Mits are nice TV's). From a picture quality stand point, decent HT front projectors offer a superior picture to anything out the TV wise.

Where your point is 100% correct is that in a situation like in a family room, DLP TV's offer the best picture to size ratio in terms of value (read: cost) for every day, no compromise use. I'll even state with all seriousness and confidence that the PQ off of a good plasma or top shelf LCD flat panel is superior to that of DLP rear projection at this stage of where the technologies have evolved to.
 
itschris

itschris

Moderator
Just got back from Sams Club. The Olevia is out. The guy was cool enough and seemed just as interested as I was to see different source material. 1080p looks pretty darn nice, but interelaced stuff, standard pictures were just full of motion artifacts that were way too distracting. Even my wife saw them.

Oh well. I kinda got hyped about a flat screen. Perhaps I'll look to a smaller LCD, maybe in the high 50" range. I'll do some research.

Posting this stuff helps me work it all out in my head and the advice is really helpful too so thanks for indulging the thread and thought process.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Okay, I get what you're saying... it makes sense. It's not optimum by any means, but my wall just literally isn't big enough since it's the short wall of the room that angles off back to the eat in breakfast area off the kitchen. It used to be the fourth set of triple glass doors leading out to the pool area. The other wall is the long wall that spans straight through and continues to the kitchen area which is really large with a bar area and what not. The short wall has really only about 100" max of usable wall space and the way the back hallway shoots off to the office in the back of the house, there even has to be a slight bias on that short wall towards the kitchen area. It's just not ideal for a super large screen, but I think I still would rather have an 75 or 80" diagonal screen vs a 65" DLP given about the same total cost and overall quality of picture. Certainly the recurring cost and recalibration is something to think about.

I'm gonna go back to Sam's Club tomorrow and check out that Olevia 65" LCD again. I've read about 15 pages of posts on it over at the AVS forum. For $3K, it almost seems like a no brainer. It does have some shortcommings, but so does the DLP, the projector setup, and anything else short of a $7500 to $10K setup. I might just throw that up on the wall and forget about it.

Any front projection should have a pretty good light control conditions. Not sure you'd want to eat breakfast and watch the news or morning shows in the dark.
Another consideration. The light bulbs in front projections have about a 3000 hr life. Sometimes less, sometimes more. So you need to find out what the bulb costs are. Everyday watching TV will rack up the hours.

Not sure you want a 14ft throw distance with such a small screen size.

Ceiling mount? Video cables to the projector? Power to it? Fixed screen?

You may want to see if you can find a place that have FP on display and see how room lighting affects it and smaller size projected.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I can get up to 4 year extended warranty for a couple hundred bucks through Sams through a 3rd party so I'm not too terribly concerned.
Wait a minute!

Sam's Club GIVES you a LIFETIME RETURN policy on all entertainment electronics - TVs, DVD, Blu-rays.

They only give you 6 month on Dell products (even Dell Projectors), but you should get a lifetime return policy on projectors or TVs.

Ask them about it!:D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I'm sorry, AcuDefTechGuy, but that's not correct in the least (and I'm understating the point).

I'm a Mits TV dealer (we primarily do the Diamond Series) and would rather have the picture from something entry level like the BenQ I listed in my earlier post than ANY DLP TV out there, including the Mits stuff (the Mits are nice TV's). From a picture quality stand point, decent HT front projectors offer a superior picture to anything out the TV wise.

Where your point is 100% correct is that in a situation like in a family room, DLP TV's offer the best picture to size ratio in terms of value (read: cost) for every day, no compromise use. I'll even state with all seriousness and confidence that the PQ off of a good plasma or top shelf LCD flat panel is superior to that of DLP rear projection at this stage of where the technologies have evolved to.
I should have qualified my statement by saying that you need a totally darken room to get a good picture from projectors.

Most living rooms cannot be totally darken.

I'm actually planning on getting a HD projector when I get a new house with a dedicated HT room with 100% light control -- no external light sources, etc.

But in a living room with all kinds of open/external lightings, projectors will never give you the same good picture quality as DLPs, LCDs, Plasmas, LCos, etc.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
That's interesting to me because my pj looks better than any dlp that Ive ever seen, whether Samsung, Mits, Pana, etc. And I don't have a 20k projector, or 10k cinemascope, or 10k automated masking system, or 4k Radiance XD. Heck, I'm still working on light control. My pj is 3 panel LCOS, and its not even the best model in the line.

But maybe you know something I don't.
I'm sorry, AcuDefTechGuy, but that's not correct in the least (and I'm understating the point).

I'm a Mits TV dealer (we primarily do the Diamond Series) and would rather have the picture from something entry level like the BenQ I listed in my earlier post than ANY DLP TV out there, including the Mits stuff (the Mits are nice TV's). From a picture quality stand point, decent HT front projectors offer a superior picture to anything out the TV wise.
Well, guys, I've spend 2 hours watching Transformers HD DVD at Ultimate Electronics' THX room. They had the Epson, Mitsubishi, Sony, and JVC top-of-the-line projectors.

I had them change projectors so that I could audition every single one.

The screen was a fixed 120" screen. They said it cost $1,500.

My conclusion: NONE of these 1080p projectors' picture looked as good as the Mitsubishi, Samsung, Pioneer, Toshiba, JVC, etc. TVs.

I guess everyone is different. But to my eyes, none of these projectors had excellent picture quality in my book - not even in a darken room.

They looked pretty good, but not as good.

But the OP has to audition for himself and be the final judge.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Well, guys, I've spend 2 hours watching Transformers HD DVD at Ultimate Electronics' THX room. They had the Epson, Mitsubishi, Sony, and JVC top-of-the-line projectors.

I had them change projectors so that I could audition every single one.

The screen was a fixed 120" screen. They said it cost $1,500.

My conclusion: NONE of these 1080p projectors' picture looked as good as the Mitsubishi, Samsung, Pioneer, Toshiba, JVC, etc. TVs.

I guess everyone is different. But to my eyes, none of these projectors had excellent picture quality in my book - not even in a darken room.

They looked pretty good, but not as good.

But the OP has to audition for himself and be the final judge.

What was THX certified about that room? When was it certified and under what conditions? Certifying such a room gets expensive and am surprised that a showroom would be so certified.
 
itschris

itschris

Moderator
I've seen the JVC (about $6K I think) in action in a dedicated theater. Admittedly, the guy has about Stewart self masking screen that probably cost as much as the projector. It was a really really nice picture. I can't say that it was better or worse than anything else, since I couldn't directly compare, but I remember being quite stunned looking at it.
 

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