Monitors- what to buy

[Joe Schmoe]

If you want truly neutral speakers, you could try professional studio monitors.
Of course, these are not designed for looks.

 

[WmAx]

So, what, in your opinion, I should be looking for is a speaker that is a "neutral" as I can? I shouldnt really concern myself with how it sounds in the audition?

1st, my opinion really is not the issue here - my suggestions in this thread as based on the credible perceptual research into the field of human hearing vs. measured parameters.

As for what to look for in way of 3rd party credible measurements: a smooth on axis frequency response, with no more than 1.5dB deviation from a flat line, and that 1.5dB variation should be for very small/short sections - not extended areas. The off axis response sets, in increments of 15 degrees, should be a close representation of the on axis up to 30 degrees, up to 15khz. The off axis sets up to 60 degrees, should be an accurate representation of the on axis up to 6-8khz, with a smooth high frequency drop off after 6-8khz. If overall response at far angles is even more similar across a wider band, than this is a good thing. The previous limits are given as a baseline of that is expected of a typical good response speaker. The waterfall plot, if one is given, should have a quick decay with no wide ridges of energy as referenced at the first -25dB down from the test signal. Distortion, if provided, should be at least in the general range of 40dB down from the main signal, when the speaker is used at 90db at 1.5-2 Meters. Distortion harmonics should not be present in higher multiple orders(if this data is given), that is, the distortion harmonics should be close to the fundamental tones used to measure each distortion point - not far away, such as present in the 10th order/multiple. Cabinet resonance, if measured, should be low in comparison to the average speaker system. Stereophile provides a center wall vibration measurement for each speaker they measure. You have to account for the enclosure over-all size and the speaker sensitivity because Stereophile does not account for these things in the graphs - as such, two graphs may not necessarily be comparable - you have to check the conditions.

These are some basic things to look for when searching for a monopolar speaker system. Monopolar is not ideal for stereo sound reproduction, but it is the easiest and most common type of speaker to use.

Be aware that you do have to have some understanding of the founding perceptual research in order to be able to determine things form measured data - even if that data is provided in sufficient amounts.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

If you want truly neutral speakers, you could try professional studio monitors.
Of course, these are not designed for looks.

A professional studio monitor is by no means necessarily neutral. I have come across many 'highly regarded' units with very poor behavior(s). Even if one finds a unit with good on axis linearity and low resonance in the same package(won't be a common combo to find), the off axis response will most likely be terrible. Most studio monitors are intended primarily for nearfield use, or mid-field use where heavy acoustic treatments remove virtually all 1st reflection points; as such the off axis response characteristics are not very important, as opposed to a home speaker, where off axis response is usually a critical issue.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

Chris, have you heard the B&W CM-1's? If I was to say anything about these speakers, it would be "neutral"...now, I admit, I really don’t know exactly what "neutral" really means in your terms, but for me, for what I have auditioned, "neutral" would be one word that comes to mind when describing the CM-1's. Can you give me an idea what "neutral' sounds like? Or is it really decided by the meters that measure things I might not even hear?

Spending $300 on the EQ system you mentioned earlier would be something I would really be willing to do if I can get a speaker that will fit the "neutral" need and the "ascetic" needs.

The B&W CM1 has built-in colorations that will make it unsuitable for the purpose I suggested. In addition, the CM1 has high distortion at even moderate SPL levels around 100Hz. An ideal crossover point would be 120Hz for this speaker. This means it would be very difficult to integrate it with a subwoofer without localization issues.

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/bw_cm1/

I can't really tell you what 'neutral' sounds like, as far as the perspective that you want it to be described. If you want to hear a relentlessly neutral speaker, find a B&W 802D that is set up properly, from walls, and with acoustical treatments present. That is an example of a speaker with very flat on axis response, smooth off axis response and no resonance. This is a speaker that has huge potential if coupled with an E.Q. system as I have mentioned in this thread.

-Chris

 

[1marookie1]

Chris, I've read quite a few of your posts here, and see you are quite established and very respected amount the regulars here....so taking a risk of sounding even more like a "rookie", and with all due respect, it doesnt make a whole lot of sense to me that the big speaker makers, with millions of $ spent on R&D, cant replicate the modifications you are famous for here....why is that? Is it that the "neutral audiophile" sound you strive for isnt what the general public wants and likes? I admit, I'm new at this, but isnt it the goal of most of us to hear and feel a song the way it was originally recorded, like being you have the artist in the room with you? I must be very nieve.....

So, one last request from you, what "bookshelfs" do you find acceptable or close to that in the $1,000 range? Are the "Ascends" you suggested earlier the ones I need to focus on? How do the new NHT 3's measured parameters look?

Regards

 

[WmAx]

.so taking a risk of sounding even more like a "rookie", and with all due respect, it doesnt make a whole lot of sense to me that the big speaker makers, with millions of $ spent on R&D, cant replicate the modifications you are famous for here....why is that?

Cabinet production costs escalate quickly - and are the main cost in most loudspeaker systems. The modifications that I suggest - or at least similar - especially Stage 2 - are used in some high end speaker systems. But such construction methods(and the resultant weight) are not feasible for low or moderate cost speaker systems. Some speaker systems, such as the B&W 802D, use even more effective methods as compared to my cabinet modification suggestions.

As for the tonal response modification technique - this is only truly practical using an active line level device. In addition, many so-called audiophiles believe any kind of sound adjustment/tonal control is bad - regardless of it is line level or built into the speaker itself.

Is it that the "neutral audiophile" sound you strive for isnt what the general public wants and likes? I admit, I'm new at this, but isnt it the goal of most of us to hear and feel a song the way it was originally recorded, like being you have the artist in the room with you? I must be very nieve.....

People with no hearing damage nearly always pick extremely similar sound when these comparisons are performed in blinded conditions with all other variables held constant. So, I don't believe I have any unique preference. As for wanting to hear a song the way it was 'originally recorded' - realize that most recordings (especially those in the last decade) are heavily compromised. Such compromises can involve non-linear microphones, non-realistic micing techniques and various sound 'enhancements'. On top of this, most recordings are further compromised to sound 'best' in high noise environments such as car audio where fidelity is the last thing to be considered. Just something to think about.

So, one last request from you, what "bookshelfs" do you find acceptable or close to that in the $1,000 range? Are the "Ascends" you suggested earlier the ones I need to focus on? How do the new NHT 3's measured parameters look?

The thing is, that you can spend 1000 or a little more, and nothing really exceeds the Ascend CBM-170 overall so far as 2 way bookshelf speakers are concerned within this price range. The main difference would be the tonal balance/colorations designed into the speaker. My suggestion allows you to adjust this tonal balance/coloration to what you prefer as opposed to depending upon a built-in non-variable coloration. The new NHT 3 Classic is roughly equal in many characteristics to the CBM-170, except, the NHT is extremely low efficiency; it requires almost 4x the power to reach the same SPL as the CBM-170. As a result, the NHT will distort much sooner and require a massive amplifier for even moderate dynamics if you want to avoid amplifier clipping.

-Chris

 

[1marookie1]

ok, sorry, I lied, one more question...do you really think someone the likes of me, can effectively use the Behringer DCX2496 with you some guidance of coarse , if I were to purchase the cbm-170's?

Thanks Chris

 

[1marookie1]

ahh yes, we havent talked about what subwoofer to get to match the Ascends?

 

[WmAx]

ok, sorry, I lied, one more question...do you really think someone the likes of me, can effectively use the Behringer DCX2496 with you some guidance of coarse , if I were to purchase the cbm-170's?

Thanks Chris

Yes, it's really not hard to use. It's just 'different' than what you have used before. All you need is a $40 Radio Shack SPL meter to help you level match and also set up a sub(if you are going to use a sub). Also, if you have a laptop, I would recommend getting a USB to Serial adapter and a serial cable; this way you can use the PC GUI software for the DCX - which simplifies things. There is also free ware you can use to help you measure and set up subwoofers. If you are not using a sub - you don't even need the SPL meter.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

ahh yes, we havent talked about what subwoofer to get to match the Ascends?

If you provide a price range and desired lower frequency range limit, and I(or someone else here) will recommend a sub based on 3rd party measured performance. I highly recommend 2 lesser priced subs to a single more expesive sub-woofer. It is much easier(and more likely) to get seamless integration using multiple subwoofers.

-Chris

 

[1marookie1]

Ok, I've decided on the Sierra's, taking in the WAF. Does the Behringer come with all the cables I'll need?

 

[WmAx]

Ok, I've decided on the Sierra's, taking in the WAF. Does the Behringer come with all the cables I'll need?

The Behringer DCX2496 does not come with any cables.

Please list the equipment and how it will be connected, and list each connection describing if it is balanced (XLR or 1/4" TRS) or unbalanced(RCA).

You can buy adapters to connect this system or you can make custom cables - though most people do not want to make custom cables.

After you fully describe the hardware and connection I can list the specific cables and plugs you should purchase as well as a source to buy them.

-Chris