A little Pre-Pros Comparo

[AcuDefTechGuy]

View attachment 5622

I've been trying to decide which new pre-pros (HDMI-1.3/TrueHD/DTS-MA) to buy. This chart has the "older" pre-pros with all the newer HDMI-1.3/TrueHD/DTS-MA, but historically, I guess price does not always correlates to performance.

All these pre-pros have some things in common: flat frequency response, low THD+N, & excellent SNR. But the one area they differ most is in Crosstalk (or channel separation).

The $4,000 Primare SPA21 has a crosstalk of only - 65.5dB?

The $600 Emotiva preamp has a crosstalk of - 70dB.

The $6,700 Anthem D2 has a crosstalk of - 88.7dB, but the $3,000 Anthem AVM30 has a crosstalk of - 90.8dB?

Yes, they are just numbers, but surely crosstalk does count for something, right?

 

[Flashjet]

Emotiva MMC-1 replaces my old Rotel RSP-980

MMC-1 Pre/Pro

This replaced a Rotel RSP-980. The Rotel was $1,300.00 when new ten plus years ago. The MMC-1 was $699.00 new a month ago. The up-to-dated features covers all the latest formats that DVD movies are offered in now a days, as expected. And it does it very well. An added bonus that is not seen very often today is the phono input that is included with the MMC-1. Those of us that have our old LPs from college days can re-unite with them now and not have to buy another device (phono pre-amp) to do so.

The features are all covered in the technical specs, so I will get on with the review of the sound of the MMC-1. First of all, I was taken by the clean, noise free, presentation. I am guessing that because of the age of my Rotel, that the capacitors were showing their age with some derogation resulting in some lack of cleanliness of the presentation. I had grown use to that sound and with the very first notes played on the MMC-1, this was gone and only pristine clean music came through.

The bass management took a little time to figure out. In stereo the MMC-1 comes with the sub-woofer disabled. In other words, only your mains are provided an input when in stereo from a CD and your sub-woofer does not get input. Yet, if you are playing a DVD, your sub-woofer is provided input.

In my case, I want the sub-woofer to play when in stereo as my mains are thin below 70 Hz and needs the re-enforcement of the sub-woofer to provide the full presentation I have grown to enjoy. This is easy to correct with the OSD (On Screen Display). Once the sub-woofer was enabled for the stereo mode from a CD, all was wonderful.

Every CD and DVD I throw at the MMC-1 sounded better. Separation of each individual source was much better defined. It didn’t matter if it was a voice, violin, string bass, drum, or cymbal. Each source was very will defined. The sound stage was a bit deeper and wider. It was easier to listen to voices during movies too.

The MMC-1 has several surround modes and all sound OK. I just fine that I prefer stereo. Others find that they like the Jazz Club or one of the other surround effects. I found the Jazz Club mode to sound like they were playing in a culvert. I think that they over did the effect, but that is only my opinion and others like it, so take it or leave it.

Movies sound great and it is very easy to get immersed in the surround sound for all the special effects. The ease in picking up voices is noticeable over the Rotel. Again the cleanliness of the sound just makes everything sound more real and natural. Being able to pin point where sound sources are, made the movie seem more real, more like being there.

Don’t get me wrong, if you have a poorly recorded or engineered CD/DVD, it is going to sound poorly recorded. The MMC-1 reviles all that is recorded. It also reviles all the nuances of the music that you may have been missing with a lesser unit. I was surprise to hear several nuances on CDs that just were not there when played on the Rotel. I would have never thought I was missing this stuff until I heard it for the first time through the MMC-1. I was really shocked.

How do I explain this? It seems as though the MMC-1 has the ability to provide a “black” sonic background that makes the music much easier to pick out. The music being in all other colors other than black. The Rotel didn’t provide the black background, but did provide the music. Some of the music nuances were missed because it was lost in the background noise. (I know, music doesn’t have color, but that is about the best I can explain what I am hearing.)

There is a feature for a Zone II. I had some trouble using this, at first I was not aware that on the remote, when you push Zone II that it is only going to be active for Zone II for about ten seconds and then it automatically goes back to Zone I on the remote. I was trying to increase volume for Zone II after the ten seconds and could not figure out why I could not get anything. After re-reading the manual I realized it was operator error and it worked just as it was designed to work.

The video switching through the MMC-1 is great. Picture quality is excellent. The video up-scaling is magic to me. All I know is that the picture quality is improved when I run my DVDs through the MMC-1 as before I ran the DVD player directly to the HDTV.

One feature that some might want more on is the FM/AM tuner that is provided. I just don’t listen to the “radio” anymore. Even in my car, CDs provide music for me there and I just don’t listen to radio. You will have to look at some other source for a review on the tuner feature of the MMC-1.

Other differences I noticed between the Rotel and the Emotiva was the much nicer aluminum faceplate vs. the Rotel. The Rotel has a big plastic volume knob in the center that just screams cheap. Does it make a difference in the sound? I don’t think it has anything to do with the sound but the Emotiva does look much nicer. The remote is aluminum also. It is large and heavy. Not like the small cheap plastic piece that Rotel provided. They both worked, but again the Emotiva gear is nicer in all repects. Emotiva feels like quality.

How can Emotiva offer such a nice piece of gear at such a low price? It is much nicer, both sonically and visually, than the Rotel and at almost half the price. It is made in China, but now a days, what isn’t?

The fact that Emotiva currently only sell directly over the Internet and doesn’t have to pay a middleman has much to do with the lower cost. The quality is a large step up from Rotel and what a great buy.

The rest of my gear:
Power Amp: Citation 7.1 (150 watts X 4 in to 8 ohms) For mains and center channel.
Power Amp: Rotel 970BX (70 watts X 2 in to 8 ohms) for surround speakers.
CD Player/Recorder: Harman Kardon CDR 20
DVD Player/Recorder: Panasonic DMR-ES25
Speakers; Mains PAudio 15s 13.5 cubic ft. bass reflex.
Center speaker: Axiom VP150 v2
Surrounds: Axiom QS8 v2
TV: Mitsubishi HD1080 55” screen.

Keep in mind that the Rotel is old and to compare it to some of the latest gear may not be fair. But this is just my impression between the two pre/pros. Maybe if I compared this old Rotel to the latest Rotel I would have heard the same differences. The reason I didn't go with another Rotel was the price Emotiva is offering it's gear. The numbers, the looks, the reviews I have found all pointed to Emotiva over Rotel this time around for me.

I hope this provides some insight to others.

 

[Seth=L]

I am wondering if you did these comparisons with new speakers.

In response to AcuDefTechGuy's opening post. Those crosstalk measurements should be below audible levels. Keep in mind that is only one specification, and it is manufacturer messured (we can't trust these manufacturer measurements with our lives.). I wouldn't get to wrapped up in this "crosstalk" thing.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I am wondering if you did these comparisons with new speakers.

In response to AcuDefTechGuy's opening post. Those crosstalk measurements should be below audible levels. Keep in mind that is only one specification, and it is manufacturer messured (we can't trust these manufacturer measurements with our lives.). I wouldn't get to wrapped up in this "crosstalk" thing.

You are probably right.

BTW, these crosstalks were measured by Home Theater Magazine, not by the manufaturers.

I did notice that the output impedance for the Rotel 980 pre-pro was kind of high - 500 ohms?

My preamp has an output impedance of 47 ohms (20Hz-20kHz).

Another argument: if none of these crosstalks, THD, SNR, Frequency Response, Output impedance are significant (inaudible/beyond threshold), why would anyone (Gene, Audioholics, Home Theater Magazine, Sound & Vision, The Audio Critic, etc.) even bother to measure them and talk about them?

Then all we would get are reviews with nothing more than personal/subjective opinions. Are we to believe that all of these receivers, pre-pros, and preamps sound the same?

No matter the price?

 

[Seth=L]

It sounds like you are trying to affirm your beliefs AcuDefTechGuy. I apologize sincerely, but there is no further knowledge I have that will help answer your question. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of these measurements will chime and and answer your questions more adequately.

Good luck.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It sounds like you are trying to affirm your beliefs AcuDefTechGuy. I apologize sincerely, but there is no further knowledge I have that will help answer your question. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of these measurements will chime and and answer your questions more adequately.

Good luck.

It's okay, man.

I think what adds to the confusion is how professional reviewers emphasize certain components as having "clearer" and more "revealing" sound quality than others. Of course, I would give them the benefit of the doubt. I understand about the audible threshold. We can only hear so much and distinguish so much. But at the same time, I'm trying to understand why some components are said to have better/clearer/more revealing sound quality than others.

But it's okay.

 

[Flashjet]

No, the speakers are the same I was using with Rotel RSP-980.

 

[OttoMatic]

I'm trying to understand why some components are said to have better/clearer/more revealing sound quality than others.

Have you had a chance to actually listen to any of these varying preamps?

I need to do this myself as well, but I'd suggest listening to something that would be considered low-end (Sony receiver comes to mind) vs. something high-end (pick whatever). Do some real level-matched testing using an external amp and see what you think. You can go DBT if you want, but general listening tests would be a good place to start.

Major concerns over crosstalk numbers? Since they're all reasonable inaudible, I wouldn't even care...

Wasn't your other thread about how all pre/pros are the same? Just go w/ the Sony receiver and be happy, then...

 

[Seth=L]

It's okay, man.

I think what adds to the confusion is how professional reviewers emphasize certain components as having "clearer" and more "revealing" sound quality than others. Of course, I would give them the benefit of the doubt. I understand about the audible threshold. We can only hear so much and distinguish so much. But at the same time, I'm trying to understand why some components are said to have better/clearer/more revealing sound quality than others.

But it's okay.

I would venture to say a lot of reviewers "hear" these differences, but they may not be as audibly present as they make it out to be (listener's bias). Keep in mind that most reviewers are highly subjective, as well they should, because they get paid to be.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Have you had a chance to actually listen to any of these varying preamps?

Wasn't your other thread about how all pre/pros are the same?

I did a comparison w/ a Pioneer Elite Pre-pro vs HK247 receiver vs Acurus preamp in 2Ch stereo music w/ levels matched. I did this 3 different times. Each time I felt for sure that the preamp had the clearest sound. But then I would second guess myself and wondered if it were all in my head. Then I did another comparison and found the same results. And then again.

Now I no longer have the Pioneer Elite pre-pro & HK receiver.

I was trying to figure out the secret as to why (supposedly) some components sound better than others. But looking at the specs, it seems like all the F.R., SNR, THD, & Crosstalk were all pretty good and within limits of threshold--even a $300 Onkyo receiver had numbers that rivaled a $10,000 pre-pro. Now if we believe those threshold numbers (THD < 1%, F.R. +/-3dB, SNR > 80dB, & Crosstalk < -30dB), even a $100 receiver will sound as good as a $20,000 pre-pro.

 

[itschris]

This is going back about 8 years or so, but my buddy who was setting up higher end home theaters once did his own non-scientific test. His motto was always: let your ears decide. He had a few very high end pre/pros: Proceed, Theta Cassanova, Krell's Home Theater Standard that had just come out, and I want to say the Tag/McClaren unit that made the big entry and just as big an exit back then.

We used to argue about stuff all day long, which was better... the same Ford vs Chevy types of arguments until we had an opportunity to test all of these literally at the same time using an old school Mits Diamond 63" 16x9 tv one of the first... which I subsequently bought from him. The speakers were all M&K's (don't remmember the models)

Thinking back, I remember there about 5 of us all blind testing each other. He also threw in an Onkyo 97pro (the old onkyo I have myself now - I think that's the model - an older pro-logic receiver). I believe our final conclusions were that for HT, it made little difference, but for 2 channel audio, there was little difference between all of the higher end units but everyone picked the inexpensive Onkyo last... meaning that they could hear a difference not knowing which one was being played.

Taking into context however, the lowest consumer grade stuff out there today probably surpasses some of the highest end equipement of 5-10 years ago, so i don't know how much difference there really is.

I tihnk in the end, we all buy the equipment that makes our heart thump, nothing more, nothing less. Whether is Yammy, Onkyo, Emotiva, or Krell or whoever, if you can bankroll it, you'll end up buying the piece that makes you got to bed with a smile at night, even if it's speck sheet comes up a bit lesser than the next guys.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...I think in the end, we all buy the equipment that makes our heart thump, nothing more, nothing less. Whether it's Yammy, Onkyo, Emotiva, or Krell or whoever, if you can bankroll it, you'll end up buying the piece that makes you got to bed with a smile at night...

I can agree with that.

I guess sometimes it's not about the differences in specs or actual sound quality. It's about how much you can aford or willing to spend.

 

[itschris]

And you know... it's not even just about the most expenseive you can afford. I mean, I was all over the Emotiva LMC2 until they dlelayed the release date on it. And you know, I might even wait, but I don't trust the early summer date either. It never works out that way.

I liked the Emovtiva because it was cool and looked awsome and had the quality. Anyone, not that anyone I know cares about this stuff, but anyone looking at my rack would have no idea who Emotiva was... it's not recognizable like yamaha or sony and that alone has some internal smirk value to me.

 

[satish536]

And you know... it's not even just about the most expenseive you can afford. I mean, I was all over the Emotiva LMC2 until they dlelayed the release date on it. And you know, I might even wait, but I don't trust the early summer date either. It never works out that way.

I liked the Emovtiva because it was cool and looked awsome and had the quality. Anyone, not that anyone I know cares about this stuff, but anyone looking at my rack would have no idea who Emotiva was... it's not recognizable like yamaha or sony and that alone has some internal smirk value to me.

Once people who come to your HT hear the Emo, i bet they would have add a new name to that "Recognizable List" Emotiva..... Rather have them leave with a entirely new name on that list than just repeat performances of products they already know about.

 

[mtrycrafts]

.... But at the same time, I'm trying to understand why some components are said to have better/clearer/more revealing sound quality than others.

But it's okay.

Because they are extremely rarely compared under the proper levels matched and bias controlled condition. Then, you have chaos, no real meaning to reviews for things that one is really after, sonic benefits, if any

 

[mtrycrafts]

...BTW, these crosstalks were measured by Home Theater Magazine, not by the manufaturers.

Well, then it is reliable But still, don't get too wrapped around those numbers.

I did notice that the output impedance for the Rotel 980 pre-pro was kind of high - 500 ohms?
My preamp has an output impedance of 47 ohms (20Hz-20kHz).

That seems rather low but, that 500 is still well withing good practice considering it will be mated with a high input impedance on an amp, say 47k.

why would anyone (Gene, Audioholics, Home Theater Magazine, Sound & Vision, The Audio Critic, etc.) even bother to measure them and talk about them?

What should they say about them that you want to hear? I am not sure I follow your request here.
TAC when they did their component reviews did it DBT and usually they were indistinguishable from others properly designed So, not sure what more can be said. TAC usually talked about circuit design, I guess for those who get off on that part, capabilities, flexibilities design idiocies of features, etc, and when they were transparent, they made that comment

Then all we would get are reviews with nothing more than personal/subjective opinions. Are we to believe that all of these receivers, pre-pros, and preamps sound the same?

No matter the price?

Yes, that is exactly what you are getting today from most rags, purely personal, subjective wordsmithing about sound quality. Now, if they do mention shortcoming in the way it has to be set up, features not included, and some other craziness, that is important to know.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

Wasn't your other thread about how all pre/pros are the same? Just go w/ the Sony receiver and be happy, then...

Yes, but then he would not be able to come back and brag about what he just bought

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yes, but then he would not be able to come back and brag about what he just bought

Now remember, I don't have a receiver or pre-pro, and my stereo preamps are 12 years old. I'm planning ahead as to what I should get in the near future.
My speakers and Emo amps are new, but the preamp part is way, way old. I'm still undecided.

 

[jcPanny]

I liked the Emovtiva because it was cool and looked awsome and had the quality. Anyone, not that anyone I know cares about this stuff, but anyone looking at my rack would have no idea who Emotiva was... it's not recognizable like yamaha or sony and that alone has some internal smirk value to me.

If you want your guests to be impressed by the looks of your HT gear than buy a Bose system. If you care about sound quality than look elsewhere.

If you can't wait for the new Emotiva pre-pro, then spend $1400 on the currently available Integra pre-pro with a similar feature set or buy a receiver with pre-amp outputs.