Mike,
All fair questions and points. I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to reply and explain where my head’s at.
- Correct, there is NO absolute (really not with much of anything audio). Both designs do have trade offs that bring positives and negatives and that which is “best” depends on what a consumer’s needs, wants, and budget is. When the “Which is Best” threads pop up I look at things from an integrators stand point because I deal with real world people who almost always aren’t hobbyists. Why they should have a voice in these discussions is because the non-hobbyist masses are typically who manufacturers target. It’s not fair to ignore that fact in any discussion on which manufacturer is “best”. Particularly when different engineering principles are used to get their intended results. You have to understand who manufacturer’s are really targeting. SVS and JLAUDIO are perfect examples and that’s why I keep referring to them throughout this discussion. They target different markets and thus, their designs are very different. There’s some blending between them, but not a ton.
- The joke about Bose essentially does three things.
1. Mainly: It was meant to make you guys laugh. I only mentioned it in these threads.
2. It points out (again, in fun) that Bose, a company typically associated with doing things as in-expensive as possible with little regard to achieving (at least what I would call) high performance, no compromise results uses ported designs in their subs.
3. Nobody from the sealed sub camp really had anything THAT nasty to say to the ported crowed so I wanted to even it up in a fun way. As hobbyists, the Bose jab was about the worst thing I could hit you with. Haven’t watched in years and years, but kind of like back in the day when Ric Flair used to beg for mercy, and then sucker punch guys “down there” to get back into the match.
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- Regardless of “if our ears are more calibrated or not”, they're what we use to experience these great products with. I can’t ignore that in favor of what a manufacturer was able to “produce” out of their closed lab & under private practices. I strongly believe that many companies in our industry will work to obtain a number (in subwoofers FR seems to be the most popular one) at any other performance detriment or cost because they know that’s what many people will look at & base their decisions on. Those one or two numbers do not account for how something is guaranteed to perform. Most certainly not in everybody’s situation. Not to mention that I have heard and seen many products that look good on paper, only to be really let down in their real-world execution. This leads me to seriously question many manufacturer’s testing methods. I can only account for gear in MY room and how MY environment will affect performance but I think I bring a little different perspective to the table because I use audio equipment in other people’s homes and not just my own personal environment. When discussing this stuff it’s easy to not think about in-cabinet, in-room, esthetics for the masses, down vs. front vs. side firing, etc. All of those things (and more) will effect not just measurements, but how something like a ported sub might be forced to drone or a sealed one chuff. I’m a “try-it” guy, not a “read about it” guy. Not because the engineering oriented people aren’t correct, because a lot of times they are. Understanding performance numbers provides an excellent starting point to go out and begin the real fun and demo things across a range. But it’s better, in my opinion, to also factor in application. That’s HUGE to me. Subwoofer placement and room size ALWAYS effect the results, so why look at data that disregards that? It’s a good starting point, but not something to turn into an absolute. Maybe that’s where this all started and caused a real communication issue?
- I also wanted to quote you, Mike, because you’re question below is unfair by asking me to comment on codex’s absolute generalizations (see where I’m going?):
“and ultimately, I would like to ask you if you do agree with codex that:
-a sealed subwoofer will sound better than a ported subwoofer - absolutely? (because this is after all the purpose of this thread - the generalizations made by codex)”
To answer your question as best I can:
As an absolute: No, basically he’s incorrect.
As a generalization: Yes*, I have found that, in general for both music & movies, sealed sub woofers provide a more accurate, clean, forceful, and visceral experience than ported given the multitude of real world environmental challenges that the majority of consumers and integrators face when trying to obtain a livable “best”**.
*My statement above absolutely DOES NOT factor in “ideal situations or environments” as they tend to be exceptions rather than rules.
**This does not mean by any stretch that all sealed subs are better (particularly at similar price points). On the lower end of the price scale >$1K, I think it can be very very hard to find a high performing sealed sub design that can compete with ported, particularly in terms of output. Ported ones are much more common across the board. The only >$1K sealed sub that I have really been blown away by recently is the new Sunfire HRS line.
- You really made my point for me on AVASERFI’s sub. It’s beautiful, to be sure, and I have zero doubts that it’s an awesome piece of high performing gear. But, he’s made a custom, one-of-a-kind piece. Can he build them and sell them for anywhere near that? Can he ship it for that or, for that matter, with all the intricate bracing in there can it be shipped across the country or across the globe)? What would he have to charge if he had to pay a sales force, buy a warehouse and a team to run it, buy parts in mass quantities, engineers to test and design it? Advertise it? And so on and so forth. WAY WAY WAY WAY more than $600. That’s completely unfair to compare a one-of-a-kind product to that of a manufacturer who’s price absolutely HAS to incorporate those burdens in it. It’s crazy! Now, let’s figure out what each JL Fathom F113 costs JL to purely just manufacture. Just look at the costs of parts and take all the other costs out of it. I bet that if we did, the Fathom F113 would be less than $600. Regardless, if he would like to quote me building me one, I'd love to try it.
- Sorry, no pics of the Gotham. One, I really don’t photograph a lot of things (next week something really cool will be showing up and I’ll try to take some) because I just don’t have time to mess with it. The Gotham took a long long time to build and ship. If I recall correctly, I was told that in the time it takes to build one Gotham from start to scratch and ship to a dealer, Ford can build two Excursions from start to scratch and ship them to a dealer. The only reason I got it was because I had gotten notice that JL’s pricing was going up. The Gotham was going from $9K to $11K and my dealer cost along with it. So, I bought one just to say I have it. It was hilarious! I live in a modest house (only 1900sq’) and have hardwood floors. The Gotham is totally unnecessary. I couldn’t even turn it up and use it because it dominated my 15 x 22 space. I had a client that I sold it to for around what I paid for it. True story: I have Carl Kennedy’s cell number (Carl’s the director of JLAudio’s home division and he designs their subs). He’s extremely accommodating and very passionate about JL and their dealers and he makes it clear that if we have questions to call him day or night. They’re a class company 100%. So, one day I called and asked him which would provide a better bass experience, a single Gotham or two Fathom F113’s. He said that a single Gotham would certainly have more output, but that in most rooms (remember, the Gotham’s not for most rooms), dual Fathoms would yield a better, smoother bass experience. He then followed that up with the idea that if a client had the budget and the room that three F113’s properly set up would be a phenomenal bass experience. He really recommended that with enthusiasm, but I’ve never tried it.
- If anyone was wondering here’s my favorite subwoofer (and, yes, it’s sealed, but that has nothing to do with why I like it):
http://www.artcoustic.com/download/DFS100-75 Subwoofer.pdf
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