Plasma TV is Dead - Pioneer Exits

stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
And nobody has answered my question:

"Remember Pioneer wasn't going to make or sell LCD TV's come hell or high water three years ago. So which one happened?" ;)

Hey D,


To answer your question: Hell and high water came a-knocking on Pio's door. So they had a choice, sink or swim. What would you do as a corporation? They did the smart thing, delegated production to a supplier that can provide a tech cheaper than they can produce, there by generating capital. LCD: now they have a two prong attack on the market, provide plasmas at a profit and provide LCDs at a profit. I'll say it again both technologies are nearing their end-of-life cycle.
 
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A

audiovideobob

Audiophyte
Plasma is dead

Hi Clint
I believe that the title of this article is misplaced.Pioneer is still going to make plasma tvs.Just because they have some one else make the panels for them is not unusual.Pioneer was getting their panels made by NEC up until a few years ago.Aligning with Sharp to make LCDs makes sence because now they can offer both and expand their flat panel business.When you get to 50" and above in screen size plasma offers more choises and bigger panels.Plasma is not going be with us for at least another 5 years or more.
 
K

kaiser_soze

Audioholic Intern
Do other types of televisions (e.g. LCD) come with that sort of warranty?

The logic that is implied by this rhetorical question is manifestly goofy. I hate when people go around dropping little turds like this for someone else to have to clean up after them. Let me try and explain:

Fact A: No warranty is given against screen burn-in with LCD sets.
Assertion B: The lack of such warranty with plasma sets lends support to the supposition that screen burn-in is a real effect with plasma sets.

Contrary to what JBElliott is implying, Fact A does not say anything about the correctness or lack thereof of Assertion B. What he is implicitly proposing, is logically absurd.


If someone doesn't point out to people when they do silly things such as this, then how will they ever learn not to do silly things?
 
Duffinator

Duffinator

Audioholic Field Marshall
What would you do as a corporation? They did the smart thing, delegated production to a supplier that can provide a tech cheaper than they can produce, there by generating capital. LCD: now they have a two prong attack on the market, provide plasmas at a profit and provide LCDs at a profit. I'll say it again both technologies are nearing their end-of-life cycle.
I would have invested in both technologies three years ago. I agree they are doing the right thing now.

When are the new Panasonic 800 series 58" plasmas supposed to hit the street? I'm going to need one by the end of April.
 
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stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
I would have invested in both technologies three years ago. I agree they are doing the right thing now.

When are the new Panasonic 800 series 58" plasmas supposed to hit the street? I'm going to need one by the end of April.
I've been hearing conflicting reports, some say now in Spring others are saying August, I'm really not sure. I tell you what though, those new 50" KUROS are beautiful, but way too much money. The Panny is a better deal.
 
J

JBElliott

Audiophyte
The logic that is implied by this rhetorical question is manifestly goofy. I hate when people go around dropping little turds like this for someone else to have to clean up after them. Let me try and explain:

Fact A: No warranty is given against screen burn-in with LCD sets.
Assertion B: The lack of such warranty with plasma sets lends support to the supposition that screen burn-in is a real effect with plasma sets.

Contrary to what JBElliott is implying, Fact A does not say anything about the correctness or lack thereof of Assertion B. What he is implicitly proposing, is logically absurd.


If someone doesn't point out to people when they do silly things such as this, then how will they ever learn not to do silly things?
That's what I was doing. Pointing out the silly thing you were doing. :D
 
E

enormo

Enthusiast
Let's see, comparing plasma with LCD, LCD uses less power, generates less heat, is lighter weight, is better for viewing in lighted rooms (which is how most people view), zero chance of "burn in"...how do you come to the conclusion that an "inferior" technology won?
TVs show moving pictures. Plasma's moving pictures are better.
 
T

tsteves

Junior Audioholic
"The future looks bright. We can't wait to see what happens next."
I have lost all respect for Clint.
Audioholics has now become the National Enquirer of Audio Video "magazines".
 
M

mk7se

Enthusiast
Here is some info from Gizmodo...http://gizmodo.com/364842/pioneer-will-give-kuro-secret-sauce-to-panasonic-says-nikkei

"According to a new Nikkei report, Pioneer is going to cease plasma production, as we suspected, but will not just become a passive buyer of Panasonic's plasma technology. Instead, it will combine forces with Panasonic (aka Matsushita) to make sure that the hot Kuro line doesn't fall in quality. At the same time, Panasonic benefits even more, getting all that sexy intellectual property to make ultra-black panels.

The two firms are expected to combine their strengths to develop low-cost, high-quality panels. Plasma TVs based on a jointly developed panel will likely be added to their individual product lineups as early as 2009. Some Pioneer engineers may be transferred to Matsushita in the process."


Like I said before, I wonder what kind of headline Clint would have posted had this been their beloved Denon brand?
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
Some of you guys are just way too harsh and are definitely not looking at the news objectively. Don't bash the article and its author just because you are a fan of Plasma and want to see it survive.

The fact is Pioneer is ceasing to make their own panels and will instead buy from Panasonic. That is step one towards phasing out Plasma from the product line altogether in the near future. Step two is shifting more resources towards LCD development which is what it and every other company is also doing - including Panasonic.

Of all the arguments we see time and time again the only thing Plasma has going for it is 'picture quality' and a lower price for large sizes - it fails in every other comparison (see Pyrrho's posts - he covered pretty much all of them). Picture quality is entirely subjective and the simple fact is that 90% of the TV buying public doesn't perceive any difference between Plasma and LCD. Over time the picture quality and price differences will narrow too.

Go to any electronics store or online retailer and compare the number of Plasma sets available vs the number of LCD sets. Usually there are three times as many LCD sets available. Sometimes your favorite team doesn't win, for whatever reason.
 
T

tsteves

Junior Audioholic
MDS
"Picture quality is entirely subjective"
This could not be more wrong.

"the only thing Plasma has going for it is 'picture quality' and a lower price for large sizes - it fails in every other comparison"
Wrong, and besides - picture quality would seem to be the most important for a video display.

"Go to any electronics store or online retailer and compare the number of Plasma sets available vs the number of LCD sets"
Irrelevant.
This is not about winners and losers, it's about disingenuous hype. But, hey, I'm sure it got of lot of page views. So it may be disingenuous hype, but it isn't stupid disingenuous hype.
 
1

1tribeca

Audioholic
It could be a sad state of affairs all in all. The numbers of buyers who are TRULY concerned with the product's capability is dwindling I'm afraid...otherwise Pioneer Elite panels would be the best seller...regardless of price.

There is the buyer who wants a "good" TV, but will not dish large coin, then there's the buyer who obviously isn't bleeding cash, but puts performance above all else. These folks are diminishing dontcha think?

How many retailers (and I'm talking about quality brand carriers, not BB and that mass market tripe) still have a large portion of the retail environment dedicated to 2-channel audio. I used to love going into the high end shops and being surrounded by really nice, quality audio.

Curse the Mp3 and blasted iPod!!!

Lossless audio, high fidelity, and vinyl records should be a mandatory subject from grade 2 onwards!!!
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
It could be a sad state of affairs all in all. The numbers of buyers who are TRULY concerned with the product's capability is dwindling I'm afraid...otherwise Pioneer Elite panels would be the best seller...regardless of price.

There is the buyer who wants a "good" TV, but will not dish large coin, then there's the buyer who obviously isn't bleeding cash, but puts performance above all else. These folks are diminishing dontcha think?

How many retailers (and I'm talking about quality brand carriers, not BB and that mass market tripe) still have a large portion of the retail environment dedicated to 2-channel audio. I used to love going into the high end shops and being surrounded by really nice, quality audio.

Curse the Mp3 and blasted iPod!!!

Lossless audio, high fidelity, and vinyl records should be a mandatory subject from grade 2 on wards!!!
Consumers prefer convenience over performance and price point over quality.
 
1

1tribeca

Audioholic
Exactly...like I said, kinda sad. The Elite PRO-110 is way beyond my modest means, but all the same I'm saving every penny to grab one...I love the performance of the panel plain & simple. I could get a Panasonic PZ700 for much less coin, but the difference is too big for my liking. Guess I'm one of those quality over quantity guys.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
The problem here is quite simply that you are taking flaws that are present in many LCD panels and attributing those flaws to all LCD panels in a universal way. By analogy, it would be as though, if some of your relatives were known to be liars, that I went around saying that the problem with your family is that you are all liars.

The off-axis viewing issue is one example of this. This is unquestionably a problem with many LCD panels, but it is definitely NOT a universal problem with LCD panels. It is logically dubious to take a flaw that is generally present in some category of thing and claim that it is universally, invariably a flaw with that category of thing. That is exactly what you are doing, and it is simply B.S.

The same applies to your claims re the 120 Hz refresh rate. The 120 Hz refresh rate is not even an intrinsic part of LCD technology. The technical property of LCD molecules that can potentially lead to motion-related artifacts, is the hysteresis of the molecule, i.e., the resolving time for it to return, from the form where it permits light to pass, to the form where it does not permit light to pass. It has been true that the hysteresis of the molecules was generally so great as to cause motion smear. This is certainly not universally true of flat-panel LCD televisions today.

It was only necessary to reduce the hysteresis to the point where motion would look the same on an LCD panel using a 60 Hz refresh rate as it does on a CRT set using a 60 Hz refresh rate. But it is manifest that the resolving time of the molecules was decreased to the point that it even offered the potential for doubling the screen refresh rate. As I previously explained, it is not difficult to imagine ways in which this could be done poorly. In particular, if reverse 3:2 pulldown is applied to film-based content to extract the original 24 frames per each second, then exactly four additional frames have to be inserted between each of those original frames. The simplest way to do that will be by simple repetition of the original frame, in which case the effect that you see on a good, state-of-the-art flat panel LCD TV is for every intent and purpose the same as what you see when you watch that film-based content in a theater. When I watch DVD's sourced from film-based content, the motion looks entirely the same as motion looks when watching a movie in a movie theater. The inherent jerkiness of fast motion captured by a 24 fps film camera is faithfully preserved.
EVERY LCD panel I have looked at suffers to one degree or another from off angle uniformity. Some do it better than others, but it is still present. I am attributing these flaws to all LCDs because it is an inherent flaw with the technology at this point.

Some LCD's are pretty good with motion as they seem to have improved the response times. However, one must keep the 120hz features turned off for them to be remotely enjoyable. They still do not look as nice as good plasmas do however. Not to mention the plasmas cost less money and give better performance.
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
MDS
"Picture quality is entirely subjective"
This could not be more wrong.
But of course you didn't offer any facts to refute it, did you? Picture quality can be quantified with expensive test equipment but the point is that the vast majority of people don't know and don't care and as I said the majority of the TV buying public cannot discern any difference in quality between Plasma and LCD.

"the only thing Plasma has going for it is 'picture quality' and a lower price for large sizes - it fails in every other comparison"
Wrong, and besides - picture quality would seem to be the most important for a video display.
See above. Just saying 'wrong' does nothing to bolster your case. Show me facts.

"Go to any electronics store or online retailer and compare the number of Plasma sets available vs the number of LCD sets"
Irrelevant.
This is not about winners and losers, it's about disingenuous hype. But, hey, I'm sure it got of lot of page views. So it may be disingenuous hype, but it isn't stupid disingenuous hype.
It is entirely relevant and is in fact the whole point. The trend is pretty clear.

I bet if I look back in the thread you were one of the people bashing Clint because you are a fan of Plasma. There is nothing wrong with having a personal preference for Plasma but you have to be objective and weigh all the facts. Plasma is not dead, but it is on its way...and no amount of extra 'picture quality' is going to save it when the masses don't see it.
 
M

mk7se

Enthusiast
Of all the arguments we see time and time again the only thing Plasma has going for it is 'picture quality' and a lower price for large sizes
Gee that should be enough for most folks....

Picture quality is entirely subjective and the simple fact is that 90% of the TV buying public doesn't perceive any difference between Plasma and LCD.
Wait a minute...the first post I quoted you says plasma has pic quality going for it, then you say most people can't see a difference. How can it have it going for it, but people can't see it?

The bottom line is that the general public isn't educated. It's funny how as you have stated lower price for larger sizes, and pic quality, but yet people are still choosing LCD. Just like they'll go choose Monster Cable to hook everything up, even though they can't tell a difference, and it's more expensive than the other cables the tv stores sell.
You think if they were actually educated on the differences in tvs and cables that the results wouldn't be different? It's all marketing....

Plasma unfortunately won't last forever, but hopefully we won't be left with LCD as the alternative either...
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
Wait a minute...the first post I quoted you says plasma has pic quality going for it, then you say most people can't see a difference. How can it have it going for it, but people can't see it?
Is that actually a serious question? Plasma measures better than LCD and in subjective viewing tests by people that actually know what to look for they usually score slightly higher than LCD. That slight difference gets more narrow every year.

The small number of people in that group are not the people that drive the market. The market is driven by the mass consumer - the people that don't know and don't care about the perceived difference in 'picture quality' - on the one hand and the business costs vs profits of the manufacturers on the other.

The article was about the market reality. The trend is towards LCD and is gathering steam and LCD's advantages far outweigh Plasmas in the minds of both consumers and manufacturers. You can't fight the market even if you want to feel that you are part of a select group that really 'gets it' and everyone else is an uneducated sucker being sold a bill of goods.
 
M

mk7se

Enthusiast
Hmmmm.....

ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/consumer_electronics/whitepapers/Future_Looks_Bright_for_Plasma_TVs.pdf

From above link...
The most exciting advancement in plasma TVs is occurring in luminous efficacy. Luminous efficacy can be simply
expressed as the relationship between luminance (brightness) and power consumption. As luminous efficacy improves,
higher brightness can be achieved at the same power levels and lower power can be achieved at the same brightness
levels. But the effects of higher luminous efficacy are not just limited to brightness and power. Improvements in luminous
efficacy will have far reaching effects in:
Brightness
• Power consumption
• Brightroom contrast
• Grayscale
• Design tolerances
• EMI
• Heat
• Reliability/lifetimes
• Device technology
• Process technology
• Panel costs
• Circuitry costs
• Mechanical costs
• Total costs
• Power supply costs
• Optical filter costs
As a result, increases in luminous efficacy should dramatically boost the competitiveness of plasma TVs vs. competing
TV technologies. This White Paper will examine when expected improvements in luminous efficacy are likely to occur
and what impact they will have on performance, panel costs, TV costs, TV prices and cost/price competitiveness vs.
LCD TVs.
In addition, plasma TVs have inherent advantages in motion performance which have been difficult to quantify until recently and not broadly marketed. We expect to see this advantage more widely demonstrated and marketed in the
future which should also improve the outlook for plasma TVs.
Finally, plasma TV cost advantages at larger sizes will also be quantified. As prices for larger sized TVs come down,
the 50” and larger TV market will grow rapidly and plasma TVs are well positioned to dominate these markets due to
their inherently lower costs than LCDs in this size category.
 
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