M

miggs29

Audioholic
I used the YPAO to calibrate my system and (PEQ) to natural on a RX-V1700. My sound from the speakers sound kinda bright. Mostly from my center channel. I hear a lot of the sssss during dialogues. My question is: Should I go from PEQ (auto set up) to GEQ (manual set up) and make some fine tunning? IF so, what band should I adjust to correct this? or should I just adjust the bass or treble? I think you all have indicated in the past to stay away from the EQ's and tone controls (bass/treble). I think I also read an article that mentioned that adjustments to the EQ in surround sound can damage the receiver. Is that true?

Thanks in advance!
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I used the YPAO to calibrate my system and (PEQ) to natural on a RX-V1700. My sound from the speakers sound kinda bright. Mostly from my center channel. I hear a lot of the sssss during dialogues. My question is: Should I go from PEQ (auto set up) to GEQ (manual set up) and make some fine tunning? IF so, what band should I adjust to correct this? or should I just adjust the bass or treble? I think you all have indicated in the past to stay away from the EQ's and tone controls (bass/treble). I think I also read an article that mentioned that adjustments to the EQ in surround sound can damage the receiver. Is that true?

Thanks in advance!
I'm philosophically opposed to auto Eq programs. More likely than not they will get everything precisely wrong. If you speakers are good performers, there should be no need for Eq. Only problem speakers need Eq. Forget Eq for a start, and see how it sounds flat (no Eq) If you like it leave it. If you feel you need a little Eq do it by ear. Sibilance is usually caused by over emphasis in the 5Khz range by the way.

Quite a few speakers are sibilant, by the way, and it is one of many speakers faults I will not tolerate.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Sorry, but that is nonsense. While auto calibration is not optimal setting EQs and other adjustments for surround sound applications can be and often is recommended to achieve optimal results. Your sound room and anothers will likely be completely different. A room that lacks acoustic damping of sorts will have severe reflection issues resulting in exaggerated brightness. JBLs tend to be bright, and the Auto calibration might not have helped that either. The YPAO is not perfect, but then again it's not all bad either. Using an SPL meter would likely yield more correct results.

Also, treating the room to reduce reflections and adding bass traps might help your overall sound as well.

Before anyone says room treatments are a bandaid for poor sounding speakers let me say that if you where to remove all furniture from a room and set up a sound system it would sound hugely different from a well furnished room (and most likely worse). Adding acoustic paneling and bass traps can help to reduce unwanted acoustic interactions with the room.
 
C

chadnliz

Senior Audioholic
Only problem speakers need room treatments?
That is way off base , the best speaker will only sound as good as the room it is in, while the speakers may be lively on the top end it is reflections and slap echo or even the content being played itself that more then likely need to be addressed. I also think that EQ should be avoided in all but the most impossible situations.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
What causes speaker "brightness" is simply bass that is weaker than your preference. Most likely the speakers aren't bright. They are more likely accurate. Your preference is for rolled off high frequencies. Very common. You can roll off the highs or increase the bass. Either approach will darken the sound.

I'm in a minority. I don't like rolled of highs at all. That's one of the reasons contributing to my recovery from audiophilia. You are in the majority.
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
Before anyone says room treatments are a bandaid for poor sounding speakers let me say that if you where to remove all furniture from a room and set up a sound system it would sound hugely different from a well furnished room (and most likely worse). Adding acoustic paneling and bass traps can help to reduce unwanted acoustic interactions with the room.
ADDING furniture will change the acoustics too. :)

I got all new couches and my new AV stand and the sound definitely changed and not for the better. I had to recalibrate everything and that helped but I could probably use a few strategically placed room treatments.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
ADDING furniture will change the acoustics too. :)

I got all new couches and my new AV stand and the sound definitely changed and not for the better. I had to recalibrate everything and that helped but I could probably use a few strategically placed room treatments.
Well a non furnished untreated room will sound worse than a furnished room.:D My point is, acoustics plays a significant rule.
 
E

Exit

Audioholic Chief
There might be another way to get rid of the silibance. If you play your mains straight with no YAPO do you like the sound? If so you can have YAPO change the sound of the other speakers to match the mains. Maybe that will fix it.
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
What causes speaker "brightness" is simply bass that is weaker than your preference.
If that were true, then turning up the sub would decrease percieved brightness. I have never found this to be the case.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Also, treating the room to reduce reflections and adding bass traps might help your overall sound as well.

Before anyone says room treatments are a bandaid for poor sounding speakers let me say that if you where to remove all furniture from a room and set up a sound system it would sound hugely different from a well furnished room (and most likely worse). Adding acoustic paneling and bass traps can help to reduce unwanted acoustic interactions with the room.
Ya, the room is huge. However, perhaps like Seth, I find JBLs to be rather forward at the top end. I don't necessarily equate that with sibilance, something that I do hate with a passion.

ADDING furniture will change the acoustics too. :)

I got all new couches and my new AV stand and the sound definitely changed and not for the better. I had to recalibrate everything and that helped but I could probably use a few strategically placed room treatments.
As Im in the middle of an HT extreme makeover, Im waiting until all placements of everything, furniture as well, is finalized, before I run Audyssey.
If I have left over treatments from the 2-ch system, Ill throw them into the HT, and have to rerun Audyssey again.

Also, as rnatalli suggested, the OP could try new speakers.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
If that were true, then turning up the sub would decrease percieved brightness. I have never found this to be the case.
I've found it to be the case every time. The reason some full range speaker systems have multiple tweeters in the design is to compensate for the more pronounced bass output they have. I had a very bass heavy, dark sounding speaker system once that had 5 (count 'em) 5 tweeters and two midrange drivers per side. Why. Because the 3 12" speakers per side would bury the highs. 5 tweeters per side and they still were dark sounding and darker than I personally prefer.

What we hear from a speaker system is the mix of all the frequencies they produce. Any speaker system will become brighter as we reduce the bass output or darker as we reduce the treble. Think back on the days when preamps had tone controls.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I've found it to be the case every time. The reason some full range speaker systems have multiple tweeters in the design is to compensate for the more pronounced bass output they have. I had a very bass heavy, dark sounding speaker system once that had 5 (count 'em) 5 tweeters and two midrange drivers per side. Why. Because the 3 12" speakers per side would bury the highs. 5 tweeters per side and they still were dark sounding and darker than I personally prefer.

What we hear from a speaker system is the mix of all the frequencies they produce. Any speaker system will become brighter as we reduce the bass output or darker as we reduce the treble. Think back on the days when preamps had tone controls.
I know of no good speakers that use multiple moving coil tweeters. It is not necessary and the comb filtering response anomalies will be severe.

But Joe Schmoe is 100% correct you can not correct a bright speaker with a sub. Here is how to prove it.

If you have a bright speaker playing a Bach violin sonata it is excruciating. Turn up the sub all you want. No sound from the sub, still excruciating.

Now the original poster was concerned about sibilance. Now that is always associated with response anomalies centered around 5 KHz, usually from 4 to 6 KHz. You won't cure that with a sub. On some sources you might mask it to the untrained ear. The trained ear will find it right away. The most important feature of a speaker is that it have a smooth response from 200 Hz to 10 KHz at least with a good spl. If it deviates in that range more than 3db it is a poor speaker, and that takes care of most. To be considered as possibly excellent it must be within 2 db. The off axis response must mirror the smooth axis response. A quality deep bass is a luxury. It is the extended midband that has to be right first. Then there are a host of other problems that have to be taken care of before excellence is achieved. However without a smooth midband on and off axis a speaker does not get past the starting gate.

Now I have been at this a long time. I have never found Eq useful for anything except touching up a vintage recording. If you are reaching for Eq with a good deal of program material, let alone leave it in permanently, it is time to look at the speaker, find and correct the problems.

Most of us are not playing our equipment in the corridor or public toilets. Good speakers interact with their environments and produce a believable pleasant sound stage in a wide variety of environments. The problem is 99% of speakers fall way way short.

Now I'll grant that an ambient environment will detract some from pop and jazz etc. But for classical music good speakers will interact well with a somewhat ambient space when reproducing most classical recordings.

My main listening room is to my taste slightly on the dead side, despite the fact that I increased window areas etc. I would not want to reduce any reflections at all. However for movies it seems very good, so on balance I'm happy. I'm very impressed how Dolby PL IIx music really does realistically restore the ambiance of the recording venue, on fine recordings.

So My advice to the original questioner still stands. Turn off the the crapo, set everything flat and see how it sounds for a week or two.
 
M

miggs29

Audioholic
Thanks to all who responded. I think that I will try to run no EQ and leave everything flat for HT. Should I calibrate with an SLP meter or should I trust the YPAO. If I put everything flat. Is there a need to calibrate? Sorry if the questions are none sense. I am pretty new to this. However, I have learned a lot in a little bit of time on this site.

Thanks...
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks to all who responded. I think that I will try to run no EQ and leave everything flat for HT. Should I calibrate with an SLP meter or should I trust the YPAO. If I put everything flat. Is there a need to calibrate? Sorry if the questions are none sense. I am pretty new to this. However, I have learned a lot in a little bit of time on this site.

Thanks...
Personally I would check the levels with an spl meter as a cross check on the levels YPAO sets. Let us know what you think of the system flat (no Eq).
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
TLS guy, what you must understand is that speakers do not dictate all of the sound concerning acoustics. You can put perfectly flat speakers in a multitude of rooms and get completely different sound in each one, each room is going to have a sonic signature unless it is treated perfectly (nearly impossible, if not completely). The Auto EQ is designed to flatten out the responce, not mess it up. While the goal of an Auto EQ is surely a good one, it's not always met with success.

I recommend to the OP that they get an SPL meter and run some test tones at different frequencies and set the EQs manually. Doing it by ear will be very difficult and most likely inaccurate as acoustic memory is very short. You can attempt running the system flat and see how you like it, but you won't likely get flat sound as the room plays a very significant role in frequencies variance in output. Speakers that measure flat in a anechoic chamber aren't going to be flat in the average living room.;)

Edit: slow on the button once again.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
TLS guy, what you must understand is that speakers do not dictate all of the sound concerning acoustics. You can put perfectly flat speakers in a multitude of rooms and get completely different sound in each one, each room is going to have a sonic signature unless it is treated perfectly (nearly impossible, if not completely). The Auto EQ is designed to flatten out the responce, not mess it up. While the goal of an Auto EQ is surely a good one, it's not always met with success.

I recommend to the OP that they get an SPL meter and run some test tones at different frequencies and set the EQs manually. Doing it by ear will be very difficult and most likely inaccurate as acoustic memory is very short. You can attempt running the system flat and see how you like it, but you won't likely get flat sound as the room plays a very significant role in frequencies variance in output. Speakers that measure flat in a anechoic chamber aren't going to be flat in the average living room.;)

Edit: slow on the button once again.
I agree with you that rooms have a signature. However good speakers interact with more rooms in a positive way, and still produce a pleasant believable acoustic. I have never had good results from Eq. For one thing Eq introduces phase shifts and ringing which interact negatively with all too common speaker problems. I only ever use Eq as a last resort and NEVER a permanent set up.
 
tomd51

tomd51

Audioholic General
When previously using my RX-V2500, I preferred the 'Front' and 'Flat' YPAO calibration options. In addition to this, YPAO typically sets the crossover too high, though it seemed to be pretty close with its SPL measurements. It's not terribly good for sub calibration, either. I always reset my crossover to 80Hz after running the YPAO, then check the levels for each channel using my SPL meter to be sure and set to my preferences.

The 'Front' YPAO setting should change the EQ settings for the other speakers in your system to be as close as possible to your mains. The 'Flat' YPAO setting should EQ all your speakers to have as close to as a neutral setting as possible. As I was very happy with the natural response of my mains, the 'Front' setting proved to be the best option for me, though YMMV... -TD
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
I have never had good results from Eq. For one thing Eq introduces phase shifts and ringing which interact negatively with all too common speaker problems. I only ever use Eq as a last resort and NEVER a permanent set up.
Most people don't know how to use an EQ properly, based on my anecdotal observations of general audio forum posts.

Now, if you have a speaker with a target response that is flat, and it is a neutral speaker in most regards(even off axis response, low resonance, etc.), then a high precision EQ is an indispensable component. With such a component on a true neutral speaker, one can dial in a custom signature to one's ideal preferences in the bass, mid-range and treble. Now, most people again, have no idea how to do this ideally, but in proper use, it will result in ideal sound to a person, no question whatsoever.

As for 'phase shifts and ringing', any high quality EQ will not deviate such things any more than the natural FR of a speaker curve would modify 'phase shifts and ringing' - the two are exactly analogous - minimum phase relationships. I should point out that I will not recommend ANY analog EQ system - they lack the flexibility/power of a precision DSP system - and I think it would be very difficult to achieve ideal target curves with most analog EQ systems. The Behringer DCX2496 is a super DSP EQ system and in addition it has other powerful loudspeaker management features that can be used such as digital crossovers and dynamic protection filters.

As for 'AUTO EQ'; I would no more trust this than I would a politician.

-Chris
 

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