Blu-ray Lawsuit vs Samsung

A

admin

Audioholics Robot
Staff member
A consumer group charges that Samsung has knowingly sold defective Blu-ray players since June 2006 and is looking for $5 million in compensation. Samsung sold lead plaintiff Bob McGovern a BD-P1200 last summer which has turned out to be incompatible with some Blu-ray disc titles. The plaintiff attributes the player's inability to playback Blu-ray movies to a "defective design and/or manufacture".


Discuss "Blu-ray Lawsuit vs Samsung" here. Read the article.
 
B

Buckeye_Nut

Audioholic Field Marshall
LOL.... somebody needs to tell that dope to install the firmware updates.
 
W

westcott

Audioholic General
LOL.... somebody needs to tell that dope to install the firmware updates.
Thats the problem. There are no firmware updates that fix ALL the problems. There are still about 6 or 7 titles that my BDP1200 will not play even with the latest firmware. Ratatouille is the latest disc that would not play. Harry Potter, 3:10, POC At Worlds End, and ......................well, you get the idea. And it is certain that future discs will also need updates that Samsung will no longer provide.

Blu Ray was released prematurely and was not ready for the general public but since HD DVD was so far ahead, BR studios and their hardware mfgs felt compelled to release hardware and firmware that was not ready.
 
C

Chuckie01

Audiophyte
They made a comment at CES with regards to the early adopters knowing what they got into when they purchased the players.

I guess thats business, once you're at the top, you care less about the little guys who helped you up there.
 
aberkowitz

aberkowitz

Audioholic Field Marshall
Blu Ray was released prematurely and was not ready for the general public but since HD DVD was so far ahead, BR studios and their hardware mfgs felt compelled to release hardware and firmware that was not ready.

Why would you blame the format and not the company? It seems more likely that Samsung just built a crappy player.
 
J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
Why would you blame the format and not the company? It seems more likely that Samsung just built a crappy player.
I think both deserve the blame. Samsung for "premature release," and BD for inferior architecture (1.0, 1.1, 2.0, and so on...when does it end?).
 
Wayde Robson

Wayde Robson

Audioholics Anchorman
I think both deserve the blame. Samsung for "premature release," and BD for inferior architecture (1.0, 1.1, 2.0, and so on...when does it end?).
True, but didn't the BDA have to approve Samsung's design?

Yes, I'm biased. I'm not a corporate 'fanboy' for a format but I am biased agaisnt Blu-ray specifically - just certain aspects of the CE business.

... allow me to explain in this long rant...

Warning: The following rant in no way reflects the opinions of Audioholics at large. The views aren’t necessarily shared by Clint, Gene, Tom or anyone else. I take full responsibility for any information and it’s not my intention to start a ‘your format sucks’ thread. Everyone has a right to their opinion, I respect yours, even if your wrong.

I've been a 30-day Best Buy/Future Shop/Sony Store Blu-ray player gypsy for months. I've 'owned' just about all of them including Samsungs BD-1200, BD-1400 and UP5000. I've 'owned' Sony's BDP-S300, Pioneer's BDP-HD50 and a PS3.

I've only owned one HD DVD player. I got to review a HDA1 when it came out but the one I personally use is the lowly but fully operable expansion to the Xbox 360. It plays EVERY disc, I get legacy DD and DTS. All is well.

The only BD player that didn't frustrate the hell out of me due to incompatibility, lock-ups and horrible slowness was the PS3. Pioneer's BD player was a close second.

Over 3 minutes between the time I place the disc into the tray and start watching a movie is unacceptable.

HD DVD starts your movie automatically, usually in under a minute.

Blu-ray makes you sit through 9 or 12 trailers.

Sure you can hit 'chapter advance' between each trailer, it's mandatory unless you don't mind watching your movie tomorrow night.

But - hitting 'chapter advance' too many times, too quickly runs the risk of crashing your Blu-ray player.

The BDJ processing power in most of the players is scant compared to the BD+ tasks it must perform. BD 1.0 players weren't designed to playback today's movies - PERIOD!

You can say get the firmware updates (if available). But, it's been my experience that even if you can playback the movie, it doesn't mean you're free of stuttering audio, lock-ups, slow load times for EVERYTHING… I mean everything… try selecting a special feature in Ratatouille using any BD player. It’s several frustrating minutes and maybe a lock-up and a reboot of the machine for your troubles.

I exaggerate not!

Can any BD player sold before Dec '07 playback Sunshine? Try the DTS soundtrack and tell me how that's working out for you!

Just try playing back any 2008 BD release in any current Samsung or Sony (PS3 excluded) BD player!

It's a disgrace!

Blu-ray wasn't ready for release in June 2006 and it’s still not ready now.

Pioneer's player and PS3 seems to have adequate processing power to blow through the discs I had at the time and they both handle load times with DVD-like efficiency. Although I didn't get a chance to try any 2008 releases I hear nothing but good things about them.

Here were my sentiments about BD back in Feb last year.

It's a video blog post on a consumer electronics blog I used to write/shoot video for.

Both formats were new back then and to be honest I hadn't seen either of perform yet. But picture quality or performance of players isn’t an issue in this video.

The information is outdated. The term IHD was changed to HDI and yes, I know BDJ is BD's equivalent - I had to trim a lot of my blabbing to keep the video tight. And I don't know what the heck happened to Managed Copy?? And please... I know more studios sided with BD even at that time... it was a slip... I meant to say most movies are released to both because at the time most titles were doing both formats, format exclusives were a minority.

But the basic idea remains true, it's exactly as I predicted back then. Sony's BD was a shaft to the consumer in the making. BD came AFTER HD DVD was already being developed and many companies including Sony had agreed to back the format.

The only reason (outside hundred million dollar kick-backs) that the studios went with Sony's BD instead of HD DVD which was already becoming the industry standard was the Studio's own naiveté in regards to DRM / copy protection.

Sony's BD was to be the 'safer' standard. They were promising four layers of copy protection over and above AACS DRM. You see what a nightmare just one extra layer of copy protection has turned out to be.

The feeling I had in the early days of the format was WOA... Sony is going to produce the hardware AND design the format.... AND it's a movie studio!!!!

That's a red flag!

Innovation in consumer electronics depends on going after what the CUSTOMERS want. CE should be what you and I , when we sit in our underwear on the living-room couch with a remote in one hand picking lint from our belly buttons with the other, would think is cool.

It shouldn't be about what will help (the studios) an industry that has contempt for Home Theater!

DRM has been a plague to the home media since digital media and DRM first came along. The music industry is finally coming around and learning to adapt with new business models. The movie studios are going to be much slower.

Sony likes DRM! Sony wants MORE DRM. Remember Root-Kit!

Sony today is no longer the cool, hip company that invented the VCR. It's not the same company that went to court against Universal City over the consumer's right to 'timeshift' or record content from television.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._of_America_v._Universal_City_Studios,_Inc.

Sony today IS the television content - and it doesn't want you to record anything!

Close your eyes and think of a song - any song.

There is about a 50 % chance that song is property of Sony. And Sony now owns movie studios too.

Which do you think is Sony's primary goal? Providing Joe six pack (me and you) with cool, innovative consumer electronics that blur the line between hardware media players, computers and Internet?

No, that would be companies like Slim Devices and Sling Media. They're the true rogues in the industry pissing off the studios and putting smiles on the faces of customers with innovative, affordable products.

Toshiba knows it's on the side of justice and right for the consumer in this battle. That's why it hasn't deigned to play dirty like the BDA. That's why it's going to lose this format war...

Because it tried to fight the good fight and provide consumers with a complete, user friendly and simple-to-use format.

I always encourage healthy debate. I know I might have stuck my neck out but please, no personal attacks. I already know I'm a #@*#*# *&*. :D
 
J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
Let me begin by stating that you never fail to crack me up Wayde! :)

True, but didn't the BDA have to approve Samsung's design?
Well, yea, but that assumes they knew what they were doing. :p I don't think for a minute they conspired to irritate and alienate loyal BD fans to devise their complex algorythms (1.0, 1.1, 2.0 and so on). :p

Over 3 minutes between the time I place the disc into the tray and start watching a movie is unacceptable.
Thank you. This is a fact. And as if it needs saying: "Well, duh!"

HD DVD starts your movie automatically, usually in under a minute.
Thank you again. Another fact.

Blu-ray makes you sit through 9 or 12 trailers.
Ouch.

Sure you can hit 'chapter advance' between each trailer, it's mandatory unless you don't mind watching your movie tomorrow night.
LOL. Another ouch.

But - hitting 'chapter advance' too many times, too quickly runs the risk of crashing your Blu-ray player.
This I did not know.

The BDJ processing power in most of the players is scant compared to the BD+ tasks it must perform. BD 1.0 players weren't designed to playback today's movies - PERIOD!
Thus the cruel joke of 1.0, 1.1, 2.0, and so on.

Can any BD player sold before Dec '07 playback Sunshine? Try the DTS soundtrack and tell me how that's working out for you!
I'm waiting...

Blu-ray wasn't ready for release in June 2006 and it’s still not ready now.
Amen to that brother.

Toshiba knows it's on the side of justice and right for the consumer in this battle. That's why it hasn't deigned to play dirty like the BDA. That's why it's going to lose this format war...

Because it tried to fight the good fight and provide consumers with a complete, user friendly and simple-to-use format.
Yes. But we may have 700 or more titles to choose from before the war is over, not to mention countless foreign films (region playable, of course).

I always encourage healthy debate. I know I might have stuck my neck out but please, no personal attacks. I already know I'm a #@*#*# *&*. :D
You're the man Wayde! You tell it like it is. Something the BD fanboys/posterboys here never talk about. You've got ba##s of steel talking like that around here. Kudos. Never fear, I've got your back Wayde for the onslaught that's about to commence. :p

The Unbridled Truth, seasoned with poignant "Waydeisms." Gotta love it. Nice post. :)
 
W

westcott

Audioholic General
Why would you blame the format and not the company? It seems more likely that Samsung just built a crappy player.
Because Samsung could care less if the video material is copy protected. This is a requirement of the format and the studios backing it (i.e. Sony=BluRay).

Technically, the BDP-1200 has one of the best deinterlacers and decoders in the business and that is why I purchased it. Its only limitations are directly related to the DRM as stated above.
 
A

alexsound

Audioholic
True, but didn't the BDA have to approve Samsung's design?

Yes, I'm biased. I'm not a corporate 'fanboy' for a format but I am biased agaisnt Blu-ray specifically - just certain aspects of the CE business.

... allow me to explain in this long rant...

Warning: The following rant in no way reflects the opinions of Audioholics at large. The views aren’t necessarily shared by Clint, Gene, Tom or anyone else. I take full responsibility for any information and it’s not my intention to start a ‘your format sucks’ thread. Everyone has a right to their opinion, I respect yours, even if your wrong.

[SNIP]
Just about everything you said is true....from a perspective.
I would venture to say that Toshiba is no saint in this either. I, unfortunately, don't really do blogs or keep links or anything like that, but I do recall that Sony did reach out to Toshiba on 2 seperate occasions to try to get a unified standard. Also, I REALLY would like to know why the likes of Panasonic, Pioneer, Denon, Mitsubishi (they did show a prototype player early) Samsung, etc went with BD and not HD-DVD (Samsung being the exception with the dual format player, as well as LG). Sony certainly has clout in the CE business, but not THAT much clout.
All these companies I mentioned are about making money as is TOSHIBA. If they (Toshiba) were so far ahead of the game ( and there is no denying that they really were, at least hardwarewise) why are they "losing" this format war? I mentioned in another thread, marketing is the biggest reason, but I don't think it's the only reason. All the companies above, except Samsung are Japanese. They operate by a different set of rules than most companies in other countries, like the US and Europe do. In other words, it's VERY possible Toshiba did something to really piss off all these other guys, possibley even pissing off Sony enough to cause them to actually go their own route and create BD. The real kicker is, we'll probably never know if any of this actually happened because, Japanese companies are also the best secret keepers in the corporate world.
I KNOW this sounds far fetched, but come on. Toshiba is a CE giant. As complete a format as they had, with at least half of the major studio support on their side as well as cheaper hardware to begin with, and the only other manufactuer to commit to having a player from the begining was RCA?
R C A ?!?
 
Jack Hammer

Jack Hammer

Audioholic Field Marshall
...Blu-ray makes you sit through 9 or 12 trailers.

Sure you can hit 'chapter advance' between each trailer, it's mandatory unless you don't mind watching your movie tomorrow night.

But - hitting 'chapter advance' too many times, too quickly runs the risk of crashing your Blu-ray player...
On my PS3, if I chapter skip past the first (of several) preiviews, then press the menu button, it bypasses the rest of the trailers and takes me straight to the main menu.

The only thing I really thought was wrong with HD-dvd was the name. It offers a little confusion at first. As in "it's a dvd right? so why won't my dvd player play it?" I always felt Blu-ray had a better name because it was clearly something else. Besidedes that I would be happy with either. They both seem to have near identical sound and picture quality.

Jack
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
For useless equipment and extended warranties there's VISA



For early adopters and fan boys duking it out: priceless
 
J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
If they (Toshiba) were so far ahead of the game ( and there is no denying that they really were, at least hardwarewise) why are they "losing" this format war?

Well, from my seat, it's not because of the playability. Nor is about the pq or sq, or pricing. Nor the service or quality of the players. And that's really what it ought to be about, right? (taken from Wayde's article) That's the unfortunate part for the consumers. I don't see this as huge win for BD at all. The niche market has just gotten nichier. And the HD market is about to lose part of its fan club.
 
J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
Sing with me...

"And here's to you, Mr. Robson... Sony hates you more than you will know. God bless you please, Mr. Robson. Heaven holds a place for those who pray, hey, hey, hey..."

http://sglyrics.myrmid.com/robinson.mid
Yeah, that's pretty funny Clint. :p I got a chuckle out of it.

The fact of the matter is BD is frazzled with all their different profiles, PS3 hasn't been playing real nice, HD audio isn't available over analog, their players are incredibly expensive for what you get (compared to HD players), etc., etc., etc.

What the BD fanboys hate to admit is that HD has continually set the standard, and has kept evolving...competitively. BD was compelled to advance their technology beacause HD kept raising the bar. What is BD going to do now? Who's going to prod them to produce better players at a better cost? Yes, it seems the war is over. :(
 
F

frostbyte

Audioholic
Too bad HD lost and it won't matter. Guess BD threw out more money than Toshiba could muster up. They both pissed away millions trying to win, but one has to be chosen. Blu Ray has 66% more capacity than HD does so it was my vote from the beginning due to this fact alone.
 
J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
Too bad HD lost and it won't matter. Guess BD threw out more money than Toshiba could muster up. They both pissed away millions trying to win, but one has to be chosen. Blu Ray has 66% more capacity than HD does so it was my vote from the beginning due to this fact alone.
That spec sounds good on paper frostbyte, but what does it actually mean? Is there sound quality and picture quality between that 66% differential that one can appreciate? I think not. There are plenty of guys with $10,000 projectors on 120" screens trying to get the perfect picture. Not one of them in the forums that I frequent claims that BD pq is any better than HD. And if you can't see it on a 120" screen at 1080p/24Hz, you ain't gonna see it on anything less. The 66% capacity means nothing in the real world as it stands. Nothing...other than bragging rights. And may I submit that is the only thing BD has had to brag about?
 
F

frostbyte

Audioholic
It's not a spec. It's just capacity. It will not effect picture quality that I know of, but it does have more bandwidth available to it. What is HD DVD going to do when they get a long movie that requires just 5 more minutes to fit it on a disc? Blu Ray has the capacity to hold this extra amount without having to put out a 2nd disc due to it's lack of capacity.
 
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