Surge protection..power conditioning..?? ugh

[gregt16g]

I'm completely confused as to what I need to protect my future system.
I know I need some type of surge protection. Avoid MOV's???
Do I need a power conditioner?
Should I consider a UPS too?

My budget is only around $200 at this point.

One of my friends suggested a Zero Surge unit. Thoughts?

What I will need to protect:
Sony KDS 50-A2000
Pioneer Elite VSX-91TXH
Denon DVD player
Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8300 HD cable box
BR DVD player in the future
Sub

 

[TLS Guy]

Ups

A UPS with battery backup is the way to go. This refurbished unit should have enough power for your needs.

http://www.refurbups.com/APC-Smart-UPS-1000

Here is the manual.

http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/ASTE-6Z8L9X_R0_EN.pdf

America's power is rapidly deteriorating. I have recorded voltages as low as 96 volts recently. I have two HD DVRs. One is run from a big UPS and has been fine. The low voltages have been crashing the other continuously. I installed a smart UPS today, so the low voltage periods are supported by the battery.

The worst of it is though that the AC power signal has way too much THD. I recorded 34% last week. The IEEE recommend a max of 5%.

Just look at this AC wave I recorded today!

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/4320551_3HKkR#253385889

If the power company can't correct that I will have to go to regenerative UPS systems where the load is supplied by the inverter all the time. They are expensive, use a lot of electricity, make a lot of heat and increase the air conditioning load in the summer. That adds up to increased expense of operation.

 

[MDS]

You definitely need surge suppression, that is a given.

You may or may not need power conditioning. It is helpful if you are in area where the power is really atrocious (noisy). Whether or not you need voltage regulation again depends on your area. Either way, the power conditioning is not going to improve your audio or video by a large margin that is easily noticeable - unless you are subject to lousy power.

A UPS is unnecessary for a HT system unless perhaps you have a rear projection set or projector with a bulb that needs time to cool down and a power loss would prevent that from happening. Note that few UPSes do AVR (automatic voltage regulation) except for the type that TLS Guy is talking about which are known as 'online' or 'line interactive' systems. They cost a pretty penny and would be a waste of money for a HT system - computer systems are a different story.

So...a good surge suppressor is all you need but a moderately priced power conditioner that includes surge suppression can be a benefit too depending on how you look at it. If you are looking to drastically improve audio and video quality, look elsewhere. If you want peace of mind for dealing with over and under voltage situations and a convenient place to plug all of your equipment into then they fit the bill perfectly. I bought an APC H10 and it perfroms flawlessly. It is silent and has caused no problems with the operation of the system.

 

[Haoleb]

I really would not reccomend a battery backup type device for a HT. While it may be good for a computer Im quite suspicious of the quality of anything that is reasonably priced. I bought one of these :

http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=3071


For use with our computer and pretty much everything about it is BS. Number one it does not regulate a constant 120v. When its on battery power its not even close to 120v and not to mention the fact it sounds like its putting out a square wave when you plug anything into it with a linear power supply. Its way of regulating power is when it goes too low (and im would imagine too high) it will switch over to battery power, which is no better than the real deal.

Not to mention the fact that you will have to replace the battery down the road at some point.

 

[MDS]

Number one it does not regulate a constant 120v. When its on battery power its not even close to 120v and not to mention the fact it sounds like its putting out a square wave when you plug anything into it with a linear power supply. Its way of regulating power is when it goes too low (and im would imagine too high) it will switch over to battery power, which is no better than the real deal.

Good point and one that is often misunderstood. Any UPS that is not 'online' or 'line interactive' uses a stepped approximation of a sine wave. That is mostly irrelevant to home computer systems and also mostly irrelevant to av equipment unless you are some kind of super videophile and think you can see a difference in the video due to a less than perfect sine wave.

AVR is always within a range. It does not constantly adjust the voltage to maintain a perfect 120 V. Only when it falls below or rises above some threshold does it kick in. If you read the review of the H15 you'll see where that unit allows you to select 'narrow', 'normal', or 'wide' for the range. Even the narrow range is fairly wide and is something like a low of 112 volts and a high of 126 volts (+/- 5% low or high).

 

[Johnd]

If you have TLS's problem, you need a voltage regulator, or more probably a new capicitor or fuse at the pole so proper voltage is incoming. Low voltage, can often times be more harmful than high voltage. Lightening strikes is another thing. None of these devices will protect against that.

As the members have already stated, a simple surge protector is adequate in most cases. The question is, what kind of power do you have, and what do you need to protect your equipment from? Until that premise is stated, one cannot intelligibly answer the question. That is, is your area prone to lightening strikes? Or surges? Or spikes? Or is your feed consistently low (96 volts is a problem!)? Do you need to protect from rf and emi?

Without knowing these things, one cannot adequately protect from them...if they exist, or if they are likely to occur in the future. Otherwise, yeah, get the $100.00-$200.00 protector. Cheers, John

 

[TLS Guy]

The UPS I picked out for you is line interactive. It will support low voltage, and the APC systems have a good wave form, I've looked at them. Those refurbished APC smart UPS systems are in your budget.

You are in New England, and I bet you are having bigger voltage sags than you know about. Voltage sags are surprisingly harmful to modern electronics. I have been finding out on my lower level system, that just had surge protection. My studio has always been protected by APC interactive generator compatible UPS systems and has had no problems due to power issues. The level at which voltage support stats is controllable. You really don't want the voltage dropping below 100 volts and I would recommend starting support between 104 and 107 Volts.

Here is some useful info.

http://www.mgeups.com/techinfo/techpap/articles/0248-e.pdf

http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/SADE-5TNM3Y_R5_EN.pdf

 

[gregt16g]

If you have TLS's problem, you need a voltage regulator, or more probably a new capicitor or fuse at the pole so proper voltage is incoming. Low voltage, can often times be more harmful than high voltage. Lightening strikes is another thing. None of these devices will protect against that.

As the members have already stated, a simple surge protector is adequate in most cases. The question is, what kind of power do you have, and what do you need to protect your equipment from? Until that premise is stated, one cannot intelligibly answer the question. That is, is your area prone to lightening strikes? Or surges? Or spikes? Or is your feed consistently low (96 volts is a problem!)? Do you need to protect from rf and emi?

Without knowing these things, one cannot adequately protect from them...if they exist, or if they are likely to occur in the future. Otherwise, yeah, get the $100.00-$200.00 protector. Cheers, John

First of all...thanks for all of the replies. This is why I love this forum. I learn something everytime.

Chemistry, Biology...no problem.
Electrical issues...I'm the Forest Gump of the Watts & Volts world.
Unfortunately, some of the technical (to me) info went right over my head. So, I apologize if I ask something that an answer was already given for. We lose power maybe 2 times per year. I do have a RP TV that needs to cool down. Lights flicker in the house occasionally. Lightening is an issue for our area. I haven't had any unnecessary hum or noise from my current super-basic / hand-me-down system.

How do I find out the quality of power coming into my house?
How do I find out if there are surges or spikes in my area? (Lights flickering a good indicator?)
How can I measure the voltage fluctuations? Will a simple multi-meter do the trick? (I'm not real eager to be electrocuted )
How can I find out if I need to protect from emi & rf?


Anyone familiar with the Zero Surge units? It was a suggestion from a friend.
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/standaloneres.html

Sorry for all of the questions ...Thanks

 

[TLS Guy]

First of all...thanks for all of the replies. This is why I love this forum. I learn something everytime.

Chemistry, Biology...no problem.
Electrical issues...I'm the Forest Gump of the Watts & Volts world.
Unfortunately, some of the technical (to me) info went right over my head. So, I apologize if I ask something that an answer was already given for. We lose power maybe 2 times per year. I do have a RP TV that needs to cool down. Lights flicker in the house occasionally. Lightening is an issue for our area. I haven't had any unnecessary hum or noise from my current super-basic / hand-me-down system.

How do I find out the quality of power coming into my house?
How do I find out if there are surges or spikes in my area? (Lights flickering a good indicator?)
How can I measure the voltage fluctuations? Will a simple multi-meter do the trick? (I'm not real eager to be electrocuted )
How can I find out if I need to protect from emi & rf?


Anyone familiar with the Zero Surge units? It was a suggestion from a friend.
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/standaloneres.html

Sorry for all of the questions ...Thanks

You have told me enough to lead me to suspect your power is as bad as mine. If you don't have instruments and know how to use them you won't know what your power is like. But I can tell you it is worse than you think. If it gets any worse we will all need double conversion UPS systems and it will cost a fortune.

The unit I picked out is within you budget. I took delivery of a smart UPS SU 700 yesterday, that is the unit below the one I specked for you, I hooked it up this morning it is a very nice unit and fantastic value for money.

After my problems here, I have researched the problems of the failing American Grid extensively. It is not pretty. If you are in the US and have clean power I think you are the exception. If you have it now you won't much longer.

 

[Halon451]

You have told me enough to lead me to suspect your power is as bad as mine. If you don't have instruments and know how to use them you won't know what your power is like. But I can tell you it is worse than you think. If it gets any worse we will all need double conversion UPS systems and it will cost a fortune.

The unit I picked out is within you budget. I took delivery of a smart UPS SU 700 yesterday, that is the unit below the one I specked for you, I hooked it up this morning it is a very nice unit and fantastic value for money.

After my problems here, I have researched the problems of the failing American Grid extensively. It is not pretty. If you are in the US and have clean power I think you are the exception. If you have it now you won't much longer.

TLS, I've got your back on this one still - I've been trying to piece together a snapshot for you that describes the national power infrastructure and major areas of concern. I've been looking at the issues for so long from the point of generation (at the plants themselves), that I needed to pull together some resources to view it from the consumer end. It's not a pretty picture. My take on it thus far, is that an adequate surge suppressor is a must have for any home electronics. To achieve any substantial power line conditioning or regulation will require considerable $$, but I do not believe that the majority of the country's power has deteriorated to the point that our beloved HT systems are in danger of not performing well withing their own limitations. Yours is a unique case in that you are placing a tremendous demand on your incoming voltage supply, in conjunction with lousy line values.

For reference, last night I completely unloaded one of the circuits in the back of my house and took measurements. It still wasn't able to achieve a steady 120V. And I live in an area where the grid is relatively stable.

 

[Johnd]

How do I find out the quality of power coming into my house?
How do I find out if there are surges or spikes in my area? (Lights flickering a good indicator?)
How can I measure the voltage fluctuations? Will a simple multi-meter do the trick? (I'm not real eager to be electrocuted )
How can I find out if I need to protect from emi & rf?

As TLS stated, if you don't know what equipment to use, it's probably of little use to suggest it. But here goes:

1) Yes, a voltmeter will measure the incoming voltage. It is not uncommon to have a failing fuse at the pole and have sub 117 volts incoming. This is a problem the utility must repair at no charge.
2) Surges, spikes and fluctuations can be measured with a voltage recorder. These units are expensive, not for the homeowner, and need to be performed over some length of time to have any meaningful value. But the test is well worth it if you have a suspect power supply.
3) Protection from emi, rf and ground loops is rather simple and straightforward, and you can get a quick education here:

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/connecting-your-system/ground-loops-eliminating-system-hum-and-buzz/?searchterm=ground loops
http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/thinking-in-isolation-2013-a-primer-on-ground-loops/?searchterm=ground loops
Cheers, John

 

[Halon451]

How do I find out the quality of power coming into my house?
How do I find out if there are surges or spikes in my area? (Lights flickering a good indicator?)
How can I measure the voltage fluctuations? Will a simple multi-meter do the trick? (I'm not real eager to be electrocuted )
How can I find out if I need to protect from emi & rf?
Sorry for all of the questions ...Thanks

Greg, unless you have the luxury of special test equipment in your home, which most of us don't (oscilloscopes, etc.), you can really only test the value of voltage with a standard multimeter (which many folks do have). It may not be able to detect minute voltage fluctuations with any precision, but will give you an idea as to the level of incoming voltage. Most, if not all, areas are prone to surges and spikes occasionally, and your lights flickering is usually the first indication you have that a surge has occurred. But this is what the inexpensive surge suppressors are designed for.

 

[gregt16g]

Greg, unless you have the luxury of special test equipment in your home, which most of us don't (oscilloscopes, etc.), you can really only test the value of voltage with a standard multimeter (which many folks do have). It may not be able to detect minute voltage fluctuations with any precision, but will give you an idea as to the level of incoming voltage. Most, if not all, areas are prone to surges and spikes occasionally, and your lights flickering is usually the first indication you have that a surge has occurred. But this is what the inexpensive surge suppressors are designed for.

I just tested 3 outlets w/ my basic multi-meter and came up with 120.5V to 121V with the meter fluctuatuing +/-.2V as I was testing...

 

[Johnd]

I just tested 3 outlets w/ my basic multi-meter and came up with 120.5V to 121V with the meter fluctuatuing +/-.2V as I was testing...

If you're only fluctuating 1/5 volt, that's nothing to be concerned about. Now just stand there for a week to ascertain that's all it fuctuates! Just kidding. If you consistently hover about 120 volts, your power supply is fine.

 

[gregt16g]

You definitely need surge suppression, that is a given.

You may or may not need power conditioning. It is helpful if you are in area where the power is really atrocious (noisy). Whether or not you need voltage regulation again depends on your area. Either way, the power conditioning is not going to improve your audio or video by a large margin that is easily noticeable - unless you are subject to lousy power.

A UPS is unnecessary for a HT system unless perhaps you have a rear projection set or projector with a bulb that needs time to cool down and a power loss would prevent that from happening. Note that few UPSes do AVR (automatic voltage regulation) except for the type that TLS Guy is talking about which are known as 'online' or 'line interactive' systems. They cost a pretty penny and would be a waste of money for a HT system - computer systems are a different story.

So...a good surge suppressor is all you need but a moderately priced power conditioner that includes surge suppression can be a benefit too depending on how you look at it. If you are looking to drastically improve audio and video quality, look elsewhere. If you want peace of mind for dealing with over and under voltage situations and a convenient place to plug all of your equipment into then they fit the bill perfectly. I bought an APC H10 and it perfroms flawlessly. It is silent and has caused no problems with the operation of the system.

It looks like the H10 would be a good way to go.
Does the H10 use MOV technology? If I understand MOV's correctly, the lifespan of the unit is dependent on how many surges "eat away" at the MOV over time...reducing the effectiveness of the unit to protect against spikes?
I may be way off on this MOV thing...if so, sorry.

 

[MDS]

Yes, the H10 uses MOVs as do the vast majority of surge suppressors and power conditioners. MOVs degrade over time but it's not like they have a fixed capacity of N spikes before they are toast nor do little surges slowly reduce its capacity. It's the huge surges that will destroy it but that is it's job - to die so your equipment doesn't.

Google MOV and surge suppressor and you'll find way more information than you ever want to know but it's hard to sift through it all and separate the fact from the fiction.

 

[gregt16g]

Yes, the H10 uses MOVs as do the vast majority of surge suppressors and power conditioners. MOVs degrade over time but it's not like they have a fixed capacity of N spikes before they are toast nor do little surges slowly reduce its capacity. It's the huge surges that will destroy it but that is it's job - to die so your equipment doesn't.

Google MOV and surge suppressor and you'll find way more information than you ever want to know but it's hard to sift through it all and separate the fact from the fiction.

Ok, thanks.
Yeah that's exactly what I did. I googled it, & your right there so much info it's hard to make a decision.

 

[TLS Guy]

New yard transformer

To keep you updated. Beltrami Electric replaced the transformer to one of greater capacity today. I post the results today in a communication with the power company. I find this all very interesting. It helps to have clue.

Dear Sam,
I was just about to Email you. The transformer in the yard has just been changed for one of increased capacity. I have now done careful measurements and taken a picture. The news is largely good but not perfect.

The RMS voltage now measures 120 volts in the studio. The peak to peak Voltage measured on my Tenmar scope, is 170 volts. The wave form is improved. It is no longer clipped and it is symmetrical. Calculating the RMS from peak 170 volts X 7.07 gives a calculated RMS voltage of 120.19 volts. This now agrees with the RMS meter indicating you now have a wave sinusoidal in nature. The RMS readings of your previous wave were of limited value and inaccurate.

The distortion products I measured very carefully with my HP distortion analyzer and it is exactly 9% THD. It was 34% The IEEE recommended maximum for a power system is 5%.

I will post the pictures. The high frequency distortion products do not show on the picture of the wave, however they are visible on the scope. I would say fluorescent lights and SCR dimmers through out your system are the most likely cause of what I'm seeing.

Here is the wave from the old transformer.


http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/4320551_3HKkR#253385889

Here is the wave from the new transformer.

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/4320551_3HKkR#254135322

Even these pictures show the considerable improvement.

Please could you make sure you send this communication to your engineer. Please send me his Email address and I will communicate with him directly. It is a good teaching case. Also I think it would be in the interests of Beltrami electric to filter out this THD and get it to 5% or less.

I do appreciate the response of Beltrami electric to my problem. I still want this formally registered as a compliant, so it gets on your radar. I also want the compliant marked as incompletely resolved at this time. However I think my equipment will be much less stressed by what has been achieved. Above all I appreciate an MD practicing electrical engineering without a license being taken seriously.

I'm pretty sure this problem has taken out the lower level HD DVR. A Direct TV technician is coming to check the wiring tomorrow, but I know it's OK. I'm sure that lower level unit will have to be replaced for the second time, but I'm hopeful that with what you have done, and what I have done, that will be the last of it.

Once again, thanks for your efforts.
Best Regards, Mark.

 

[TLS Guy]

To keep you updated. Beltrami Electric replaced the transformer to one of greater capacity today. I post the results today in a communication with the power company. I find this all very interesting. It helps to have clue.

Dear Sam,
I was just about to Email you. The transformer in the yard has just been changed for one of increased capacity. I have now done careful measurements and taken a picture. The news is largely good but not perfect.

The RMS voltage now measures 120 volts in the studio. The peak to peak Voltage measured on my Tenmar scope, is 170 volts. The wave form is improved. It is no longer clipped and it is symmetrical. Calculating the RMS from peak 170 volts X 7.07 gives a calculated RMS voltage of 120.19 volts. This now agrees with the RMS meter indicating you now have a wave sinusoidal in nature. The RMS readings of your previous wave were of limited value and inaccurate.

The distortion products I measured very carefully with my HP distortion analyzer and it is exactly 9% THD. It was 34% The IEEE recommended maximum for a power system is 5%.

I will post the pictures. The high frequency distortion products do not show on the picture of the wave, however they are visible on the scope. I would say fluorescent lights and SCR dimmers through out your system are the most likely cause of what I'm seeing.

Here is the wave from the old transformer.


http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/4320551_3HKkR#253385889

Here is the wave from the new transformer.

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/4320551_3HKkR#254135322

Even these pictures show the considerable improvement.

Please could you make sure you send this communication to your engineer. Please send me his Email address and I will communicate with him directly. It is a good teaching case. Also I think it would be in the interests of Beltrami electric to filter out this THD and get it to 5% or less.

I do appreciate the response of Beltrami electric to my problem. I still want this formally registered as a compliant, so it gets on your radar. I also want the compliant marked as incompletely resolved at this time. However I think my equipment will be much less stressed by what has been achieved. Above all I appreciate an MD practicing electrical engineering without a license being taken seriously.

I'm pretty sure this problem has taken out the lower level HD DVR. A Direct TV technician is coming to check the wiring tomorrow, but I know it's OK. I'm sure that lower level unit will have to be replaced for the second time, but I'm hopeful that with what you have done, and what I have done, that will be the last of it.

Once again, thanks for your efforts.
Best Regards, Mark.

After the transformer core warmed up from the Minnesota cold, the problem is at the moment resolved.

Good news! I have just remeasured the THD after the transformer has had a few hours to settle in and the core warm up. The voltage has dropped to 115 volts, although down, is very acceptable. The good news is that the THD has dropped to 2.5%. I guess that reflects the core heating up a little and better transformer performance.
Another lesson leaned. Wait for several hours before measuring the performance of a new line transformer.
I guess we can mark this problem resolved for now.
Thanks once again.
Best Regards, Mark.

It is snowing hard and will be 20 below in the morning. I will check THD and voltage then.

 

[Haoleb]

I am rather interested in how exactly the transformer temperature is affecting your secondary voltages. And distortion figures.