Some various questions.

[ThA tRiXtA]

Hello all,

I hope this general forum is the right place to post these questions, if not I apologize. Back when I fist came to this site, there were very few forums and very few forum members, I see much has changed!

I am in the midst of building a home theater room in my basement and have just finished the framing. I have a few questions I'd like a second opinion on, if you guys wouldn't mind imparting some knowledge.

I ordered a spool of Monster Cable Z2 reference series speaker wire and it arrived yesterday. This stuff is massively thick, but it seems that only the material around the actual speaker wire is bulky (I assume this is for shielding or whatever?), but the actual speaker wire itself does not look to follow suit.

Any one familiar with the Z2 stuff know what gauge the speaker wire inside the whole package is? I was told 8 AWG but I have a suspicion that it is not.

On that note, because the pair of insulated copper wires is buried inside a giant tube that is filled with some hard white colored stuff, does anyone who has used this stuff have any tips on efficiently stripping the ends for use? It looks to be a total pain in the neck.

I am looking to upgrade to either the Onkyo TX-SR 805 or the 875, both of which are 7.1 channel systems. I currently own the Onkyo TX-SR 701 which is only 6.1. My question being for movies that do not offer a 7.1 soundtrack, but 6.1, how does the receiver accurately process the sound that is supposed to come out of one rear surround when there is actually two rear surround channels and they are not centered on the back wall?

On that note, because all the new receivers coming out these days are boasting the new formats of Dolby and DTS over HDMI, I am assuming these receivers are still flawlessly backwards compatible with the older 5.1 forms of Dolby Digital and DTS formats?

One last question, I have done much research on how to best wire and set up your room and have read much on properly outfitting your room with good quality wall receptacles and such.

I am in the midst of installing a dedicated circuit with only one hubbell hospital grade receptacle running on that circuit and rewiring all my equipment plugs to a leviton hospital grade plug. My Monster Power bar, model number HTS 2100 will plug into that receptacle and feed all my individual components.

I have has this power bar/line conditioner in my system for a few years and have heard many stories about it, both good and bad... I'm curious if this bar will be the weak link in my equipment and/or if it hinders anything.

Any one have any definitive opinions about those Monster bars?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Hello all,

I hope this general forum is the right place to post these questions, if not I apologize. Back when I fist came to this site, there were very few forums and very few forum members, I see much has changed!

I am in the midst of building a home theater room in my basement and have just finished the framing. I have a few questions I'd like a second opinion on, if you guys wouldn't mind imparting some knowledge.

I ordered a spool of Monster Cable Z2 reference series speaker wire and it arrived yesterday. This stuff is massively thick, but it seems that only the material around the actual speaker wire is bulky (I assume this is for shielding or whatever?), but the actual speaker wire itself does not look to follow suit.

Any one familiar with the Z2 stuff know what gauge the speaker wire inside the whole package is? I was told 8 AWG but I have a suspicion that it is not.

On that note, because the pair of insulated copper wires is buried inside a giant tube that is filled with some hard white colored stuff, does anyone who has used this stuff have any tips on efficiently stripping the ends for use? It looks to be a total pain in the neck.

How much is on that spool? 250ft? How much? I bet you payed for it dearly.
No idea of its ga, but you don't need 8 ga.

How long is the longest run? 12ga usually is more than enough. And, you can get the in-wall rated wire around $.30-$.50/ft at Home Depot or some such places. No need for expensive wire like Monster.
If you can take it back, do so and invest the savings in some worthwhile stuff
You also need to think about placing cable in the wall now for a subwoofer, both for power and signal.
Video cables?
Internet cable connection?

I am looking to upgrade to either the Onkyo TX-SR 805 or the 875, both of which are 7.1 channel systems. I currently own the Onkyo TX-SR 701 which is only 6.1. My question being for movies that do not offer a 7.1 soundtrack, but 6.1, how does the receiver accurately process the sound that is supposed to come out of one rear surround when there is actually two rear surround channels and they are not centered on the back wall?

The receiver processes that center rear and splits it into two. Certainly not the same as having two discrete channels back there, but if your room and listening position is the such that it would support a 7.1 setup, now is the time to wire it up not remodeling in 6 month
You could wire it for both 6.1 and 7.1 by placing extra looped wire from one of the rear centers and a dedicated run for the other; no remodeling in 6 month

On that note, because all the new receivers coming out these days are boasting the new formats of Dolby and DTS over HDMI, I am assuming these receivers are still flawlessly backwards compatible with the older 5.1 forms of Dolby Digital and DTS formats?

Yes,

One last question, I have done much research on how to best wire and set up your room and have read much on properly outfitting your room with good quality wall receptacles and such.

I am in the midst of installing a dedicated circuit with only one hubbell hospital grade receptacle running on that circuit and rewiring all my equipment plugs to a leviton hospital grade plug. My Monster Power bar, model number HTS 2100 will plug into that receptacle and feed all my individual components.

Why even bother with hospital grade? There is a reason for that grade, and your room is not a hospital room. Just some extra $$ you don't really need to spend. Buy the appropriately rated, current wise Leviton outlet Buy more stiff with the difference.
Hopefully you are installing a 20A branch there? If not too late and have room in the sub panel, install another at the sub.

I have has this power bar/line conditioner in my system for a few years and have heard many stories about it, both good and bad... I'm curious if this bar will be the weak link in my equipment and/or if it hinders anything.

Any one have any definitive opinions about those Monster bars?

Since you already have this, not to worry, use it and be done with it.

.

 

[ThA tRiXtA]

How much is on that spool? 250ft? How much? I bet you payed for it dearly.
No idea of its ga, but you don't need 8 ga.

How long is the longest run? 12ga usually is more than enough. And, you can get the in-wall rated wire around $.30-$.50/ft at Home Depot or some such places. No need for expensive wire like Monster.
If you can take it back, do so and invest the savings in some worthwhile stuff

To be totally honest, I am more than happy with the price I paid for this speaker wire and with all due respect, I won't be returning it. Check it out for yourselves and draw your own conclusions.

I really have to say, I found that site while researching less costly alternatives for speaker wire to do my whole room with, and while I was understandably skeptical at first I am more than satisfied with every element of the transaction I had with that company. Even with a $110 shipping cost to get that beast of a spool to my house, I still saved about $900.

You are correct though, it is a 250 foot spool and I would have paid dearly for it. I would have never bought this if it was not for that deal.

Back when I was living in my apartment and I first got into home theater, doing my whole system, including biwiring with monster XP wire cost me more than what this spool of their flagship product did.

You also need to think about placing cable in the wall now for a subwoofer, both for power and signal.
Video cables?
Internet cable connection?

I am definitely looking into all this kind of stuff, and will gladly listen to suggestions or any advice offered in this regard.

I already have my phone jack wired in down there and am working on trying to get ethernet cable down there as well, but am facing a couple difficulties. My home office that has my modem and router is on the second floor of my house. My new HT room is in the basement and I can't figure out how to fish some CAT-5 cable from the router in the home office down 2 floors through finished walls into the unfinished basement.

It's looking like my only options are to go wireless or run it through the ducting... which I really don't want to do either of those options.

The receiver processes that center rear and splits it into two. Certainly not the same as having two discrete channels back there, but if your room and listening position is the such that it would support a 7.1 setup, now is the time to wire it up not remodeling in 6 month
You could wire it for both 6.1 and 7.1 by placing extra looped wire from one of the rear centers and a dedicated run for the other; no remodeling in 6 month

I am going to go ahead and future proof it and buy a 7.1 receiver and wire in 2 rear surrounds instead of just sticking with my older 6.1 system. I was just curious if you were watching a 6.1 soundtrack movie if the receiver could reproduce it properly. Thanks for your help.

Why even bother with hospital grade? There is a reason for that grade, and your room is not a hospital room. Just some extra $$ you don't really need to spend. Buy the appropriately rated, current wise Leviton outlet Buy more stiff with the difference.
Hopefully you are installing a 20A branch there? If not too late and have room in the sub panel, install another at the sub.

I already have the hospital grade wall receptacle thanks to an electrician friend I work with, so the cost was N/A to me, however touching on your point of having a 20 AMP service on that circuit, the same electrician friend said that he would have a hard time seeing any devices I own drawing up to 20 amps... but given that I have read numerous times to put in a dedicated 20 AMP circuit and you just reiterated that same notion to me, I am wondering if I should just do that anyway...

If a 20 AMP circuit is really needed, why is it that my equipment (and probably 90 to 95% of everyone elses on this site) has been functioning with no requirements above the standard 15 AMP service?

I am looking for the rationale to this, please let me know what you think.

Since you already have this, not to worry, use it and be done with it.

I feel the same, I just didn't want this thing to impede my work that I have done to deliver the best electrical conductance as possible to my components. I have heard complaints about this thing being very limiting to systems, and other people swear by them.

 

[mtrycrafts]

To be totally honest, I am more than happy with the for this speaker wire and with all due respect, I won't be returning it. Check it out for yourselves and draw your own conclusions.
I really have to say, I found that site while researching less costly alternatives for speaker wire to do my whole room with, and while I was understandably skeptical at first I am more than satisfied with every element of the transaction I had with that company. Even with a $110 shipping cost to get that beast of a spool to my house, I still saved about $900.
You are correct though, it is a 250 foot spool and I would have paid dearly for it. I would have never bought this if it was not for that deal.
Back when I was living in my apartment and I first got into home theater, doing my whole system, including biwiring with monster XP wire cost me more than what this spool of their flagship product did.
I am definitely looking into all this kind of stuff, and will gladly listen to suggestions or any advice offered in this regard.
I already have my phone jack wired in down there and am working on trying to get ethernet cable down there as well, but am facing a couple difficulties. My home office that has my modem and router is on the second floor of my house. My new HT room is in the basement and I can't figure out how to fish some CAT-5 cable from the router in the home office down 2 floors through finished walls into the unfinished basement.
It's looking like my only options are to go wireless or run it through the ducting... which I really don't want to do either of those options.
I am going to go ahead and future proof it and buy a 7.1 receiver and wire in 2 rear surrounds instead of just sticking with my older 6.1 system. I was just curious if you were watching a 6.1 soundtrack movie if the receiver could reproduce it properly. Thanks for your help.
I already have the hospital grade wall receptacle thanks to an electrician friend I work with, so the cost was N/A to me, however touching on your point of having a 20 AMP service on that circuit, the same electrician friend said that he would have a hard time seeing any devices I own drawing up to 20 amps... but given that I have read numerous times to put in a dedicated 20 AMP circuit and you just reiterated that same notion to me, I am wondering if I should just do that anyway...
If a 20 AMP circuit is really needed, why is it that my equipment (and probably 90 to 95% of everyone elses on this site) has been functioning with no requirements above the standard 15 AMP service?
I am looking for the rationale to this, please let me know what you think.
I feel the same, I just didn't want this thing to impede my work that I have done to deliver the best electrical conductance as possible to my components. I have heard complaints about this thing being very limiting to systems, and other people swear by them.

Well, since that reel would cost so much to ship, it is a keeper but at $1.40/ft, what can I say. Water under the bridge.

It appears the best bet is going wireless modem down there.
Also, if your area ever gets fiber, that may be an another consideration to install but not sure how feasible that is down in the basement.

A free hospital grade outlet is free, hard to beat that deal.
A 20A circuit should not be loaded beyong 80% of that per code. If you have a powerful sub on that circuit, other hi-fi running at a good clip, maybe a nice projector that sucks up 400watts or more constantly, why be bordering on the limits of the circuit when you have the opportunity. Besides, I bet code would want a 20A breaker in that kind of a room: kitchen, living room needs one, family room needs one. I bet a rec room would too.

By the way, you may want to also preplan for a projector. Wire is cheap, remodeling is not.

 

[ThA tRiXtA]

You consider a price of 1.00 / foot for speaker wire expensive? I thought that was pretty good, especially given the quality of this specific product... but I could be out in left field.

I really don't want to go wireless, I already own equipment that has that capability but it would cut the speed on my connection down a lot if I couldn't hardwire it.

Hmm, I could go and buy a 20 amp hospital grade plug, but then I would have this 15 amp one sitting around for nothing. I guess I'll think about it. I don't think a new one is too expensive.

Thanks for your advice, cheers.

 

[Phil Taylor]

I consider $1/ft expensive for speaker wire but I also think Starbucks coffee is overpriced and overrated too.

 

[MDS]

I already have my phone jack wired in down there and am working on trying to get ethernet cable down there as well, but am facing a couple difficulties. My home office that has my modem and router is on the second floor of my house. My new HT room is in the basement and I can't figure out how to fish some CAT-5 cable from the router in the home office down 2 floors through finished walls into the unfinished basement.

Do you have other rooms that have or will have network jacks? You can put a switch in a common location and run all the wires to it as long as you can then get one wire from the switch to the room upstairs with the modem and router.

My modem and router are in my office but the switch is in a central location where all the wires from every room go.

 

[OttoMatic]

Hmm, I could go and buy a 20 amp hospital grade plug, but then I would have this 15 amp one sitting around for nothing. I guess I'll think about it. I don't think a new one is too expensive.

Hello tRiXtA!

If I read that right, I'll note that just putting on the receptacle (a 20A vs a 15A wall plug) won't make a difference in the rating of the circuit. You'd have to replace the breaker and (most importantly) the wire (the electrical wire in the walls would have to change from 14G to 12G in order to properly support a 20A circuit (in Colorado, anyway)).

In the end, I think you'll be OK with a 15A circuit if it's already done. 20A would have been nice, but you'll probably be OK. Is it too late to drop in another?

Also, $1.40/ft for wire isn't terribly expensive, but it's not cheap either. Many people around here have an allergy to the "Monster Cable" brand (myself included, sometimes). As you know, you can get functionally similar stuff at HD for a third of the price. I'm sure the Monster stuff will be fine, and it sure looks better than the HD stuff (which is also a relevant thing to me).

Sounds like you're happy with everything and it's coming along.

Good luck and have fun!

 

[Halon451]

Be sure to post some pictures of your progress!!

 

[Bryce_H]

Here is my dissertation

I finished this quest about 2 years ago. We were building a new house and got an unfinished basement so I could design and build the dedicated HT myself. I started by subscribing to a bunch of magazines and cruising through old issues I already had. Frankly most were not helpful, maybe once every six months they would have an article about home theater that was NOT product related. These typically dealt with lighting or acoustic treatments, or maybe once and a blue moon something about actual construction. One magazine that was very helpful was Home Theater Builder magazine (now out of business). I then found this amazing sight called Audioholics. The people here have been great in answering questions and providing advice. Another great resource is this thread over at HomeTheaterForums

I would read this thread front to back. It helped to prevent a LOT of problems. Basically the thread is a series of responses of things people wish they had done or things they are glad they did do. It raised a lot of things I never would of thought of, but of course would have realized later. Lastly I copied and modified a spreadsheet I found at sound and vision.

The attached sheet is used to develop the dimensions of the theater and seating distances. Manually enter information in the blue cells, all other cells are automatic calculations. Each blue cell has a comment telling you what to enter and what it will effect.

The first sheet "Room Dimensions" is split in two. The top (above the black line) are the quick and dirty calculations. The bottom (below the black line) are the ideal dimensions. There are no cut and dry answers - it will take some playing with numbers to get it all correct (or as close as possible). You may need to go back and change some numbers afterwards as well (for example screen size).

The second sheet allows you to fine tune your dimensions from the first sheet. Use the first sheet values as your initial values here. Keep playing with them until you get the best numbers you can. These calculations are sensitive enough that an inch or two can make a huge difference.

I can't stress enough the importance of good room design and dimensions. It will prevent an enormous amount of potential problems. Failure to properly design a room will result in very poor sound, requiring lots of effort (and cash) to rectify. Room acoustics are the name of the game. Even moving one wall can help. I was limited on width as they were concrete foundation walls, but could play with the depth of my room by moving the back wall.

After I did all my research and drew my schematics for the room I hired a HT designer and installer for a couple of hours ($75 an hour) to come the house and have me walk through everything I had. This was mostly just a sanity check to make sure I wasn't missing something drastic.

I did all the electrical work for my home theater. Here is what I did just for my HT. I have 2" conduit running to all the 7 speaker locations. I also have an insane amount of low-watt wiring terminating in my component closet. Here is the breakdown

- 4 coax in from the main structured wiring panel
- 4 Cat 5e in from the main structured wiring panel
- 4 coax out to potential sub locations (L/R main, right wall 1/3 way back, left wall 2/3 way back)
- 2 coax out to the front screen wall
- 2 Cat 5e out to the front screen wall
- 2 4-conductor shielded 22ga wire out to front screen wall for IR and other future control needs (drop down screen??)
- 2 coax out to front of second row riser
- 2 cat 5e out to front of second row riser
- 2 4-conductor shielded 22ga wire to front of second row riser
- 2 4-conductor shielded 22ga wire to main light switch box

For electrical I ran 2 12ga romex to the component closet on 20amp circuits (I'm only using 1 right now). This allows dedicated circuit for my electronics. I have all the outlet in the theater on another circuit and the lighting on another. I also bought a Panamax in-wall extension so I could protect my projector through my Panamax surge protector

The coax can be used for sub, cable, or sat systems. Cat5e is for networking or control needs. The 22ga shielded is strictly for control needs.

Also don't forget to run some wires to a potential front projector location (electrical and video).

When we had the house built we had structured wiring put in every room (but no audio). Every room has a 4 jack plate with 2 RG6 F-connectors and 2 Cat5e jacks. The office actually has 2 of these. I also got the living room pre-wired for a 5.1 in-ceiling to set up as a second system for casual viewing in the future. Just some ideas of what I have done.

Good luck with everything.

 

[Phil Taylor]

Thanks for the info Bryce - I'm getting an error when trying to look at your calculator saying the file is either invalid or corrupted. Anybody else getting this or is it just me?

 

[Bryce_H]

You are right - its not working. Onto the stupid question - how do I edit my post?

 

[Phil Taylor]

I'm not sure how you edit a post - normally there is an edit button but I don't see one on my post either.

EDIT - yep - edit - apparently the edit button goes away after a bit... so I guess just post it again

 

[Rickster71]

Hi ThA tRi,
Sounds like you're going to have a nice HT when you get done.

If your electrician didn't run the Romex for your dedicated receptacle.
Ask him to run a 4-wire Romex to it; and split the one receptacle into two
15-Amp circuits. (by removing a jumper)
He will know what I mean. That way you will have two circuits. One going to the top
plug, and another going to the bottom. Your sub can have it's own circuit.

You got the hospital grade receptacle for free, that's good.
Though it is designed to be used with hospital grade MC type cable,
(it has a redundant ground wire) to get it's full benefits.

Good Luck
Rick

 

[ThA tRiXtA]

Do you have other rooms that have or will have network jacks? You can put a switch in a common location and run all the wires to it as long as you can then get one wire from the switch to the room upstairs with the modem and router.

My modem and router are in my office but the switch is in a central location where all the wires from every room go.

I don't have other rooms that have or will have network jacks aside from the room I am building in the basement, however what you proposed regarding the switch serving all PC's from a common location sounds like a feasible idea... perhaps if I moved my modem/router into the basement where the cable comes in from outside, then put a switch on the main floor of the house... I am sure snaking a CAT-5 up one floor isn't as challenging as taking one down 2 floors.

Thanks for the new idea

Hello tRiXtA!

If I read that right, I'll note that just putting on the receptacle (a 20A vs a 15A wall plug) won't make a difference in the rating of the circuit. You'd have to replace the breaker and (most importantly) the wire (the electrical wire in the walls would have to change from 14G to 12G in order to properly support a 20A circuit (in Colorado, anyway)).

In the end, I think you'll be OK with a 15A circuit if it's already done. 20A would have been nice, but you'll probably be OK. Is it too late to drop in another?

Also, $1.40/ft for wire isn't terribly expensive, but it's not cheap either. Many people around here have an allergy to the "Monster Cable" brand (myself included, sometimes). As you know, you can get functionally similar stuff at HD for a third of the price. I'm sure the Monster stuff will be fine, and it sure looks better than the HD stuff (which is also a relevant thing to me).

Sounds like you're happy with everything and it's coming along.

Good luck and have fun!

You are correct, and the code is the same here, if the end point of the circuit (wall receptacle) is rated 20 amp but the other components of that circuit are not such as a 15 AMP breaker or wire that is not bigger than 14/2 than it won't meet inspection approval.

I haven't wired in the receptacles and installed the breakers yet, today I put in all the boxes for the lighting sconces, receptacle boxes and my dimmer switch box and cleaned up some excess wiring that the original builders seemed to get happy with down in the basement. I also put in the boxes that will connect the phone and the TV cable.

So I still may go 20 amp, we will see how it pans out.

Too much great stuff to quote...

Wow... awesome post, great links and great pictures. Congrats on your beautiful system/room... I appreciate all your advice and I will do my homework regarding that link you supplied to that other home theater site and I am definitely going to spend some time playing with the acoustics calculator... that will help a lot I am sure.

Hi ThA tRi,
Sounds like you're going to have a nice HT when you get done.

If your electrician didn't run the Romex for your dedicated receptacle.
Ask him to run a 4-wire Romex to it; and split the one receptacle into two
15-Amp circuits. (by removing a jumper)
He will know what I mean. That way you will have two circuits. One going to the top
plug, and another going to the bottom. Your sub can have it's own circuit.

You got the hospital grade receptacle for free, that's good.
Though it is designed to be used with hospital grade MC type cable,
(it has a redundant ground wire) to get it's full benefits.

Good Luck
Rick

Thanks Rick, I certainly hope it will turn out positive, this is my first try at a dedicated HT room and there are a few things I am limited by before I even started, but I think in the end it will be a good experience.

A bit of a noob question, what's a romex? I have noted you and one other person mention that's what to use regarding wiring, but I am unfamiliar with that term. Thanks for your well wishes.

I will be away for two weeks, leaving this Sunday but when I get back and make a bit more progress I will take some pictures and document what I've done... pics at this point aren't going to look like much, just a bunch of wood framing, concrete foundation, tools and wiring.

 

[Bryce_H]

Romex is bundled electrical wire: 12/4 is 12 guage/4 wires



Here is a re-attach of the spreadsheet I referenced in my earlier post.

 

[Johnd]

To augment Bryce's answer: 12-4 is four wires plus a ground. So you have three hots, a neutral and a bare ground, all 12 gauge.