What to do about a 10x10 "bassy" room

[peerlesser]

EQ:
None right now. Audyssey did not produce a pleasing result for me.

The only rugs are in the front under the two front speakers.

So are there any suggestions on what might make the sound even better. Once I got the 244s in the back vocals were definitely improved. Detail was improved but bass was still dominant. Perhaps its the rock / metal music I'm playing.

Thanks.

BTW: Should I get a sub for the low end and crossover my speakers at 80 Hz or so? If my main issue is an abundance of bass wouldn't a sub make it worse? Or will it make the bass cleaner and more desirable. Seems a shame to not use my Klips powerful bass drivers.

Not all Audysseys even have decent automatic PEQs. Only the most expensive models give it a shot. For example, the middle-priced Onkyo TX-SR875 with Audyssey does absolutely nothing useful to bass ranges. Audyssey is actually more like a dynamic loudness effect than accurate room mode elimination algorithm. It boosts bass on low listening volumes and compresses it when the volume is increased

Room treatment improves vocals but for many cases it does not deliver the neccessary absorption efficiency to lower frequencies. Like bpape said, positioning and more treatment will improve the situation endlessly, but at some point there just is no more degrees of freedom to do it. It is already hard enough to explain a couple of big acoustic tiles and basstraps to the wife. Inserting everything to their optimal is bound to get impossible. If the bass sounds still slow and boomy after max treatments, mode-suppress DSP is the easiest way to get some actual difference to the bass quality.

The cross-over frequency is more of a trial and error case. Basically if you use both sub and speakers to produce low frequencies, the room will affect less as the number of sound-radiators is increased (if you get them phase-coherent). But then again, if you use EQ for subwoofer, the corrections only work for it and the speakers can possibly excite uncorrected room modes on their own. So the selection of whether to use sub and with what x-over depends. With a sub and a proper PEQ device you should get better result as you have:
a) more sound sources,
b) more freedom in positioning the subwoofer than speakers and
c) ability to counter standing waves evoked by the sub with PEQ.

 

[bpape]

Agreed. Using a sub will allow you to tune the bass response without impacting proper speaker placement for response and imaging. Try to get one that has a real phase adjustment instead of just 0 and 180 switch.

Your seat appears to be in about the right place.

The dimensions of your setup might be tweaked a little bit. It appears that you're about the same distance from the side walls and the wall behind the speaker. Try a setup that doesn't leave them equal so that any boundary reinforcement is spread better rather than being at approx the same frequencies. Do all of this prior to trying a sub. You might also try accomplishing this by pulling the speakers out into the room a little more. This will shift the reinforcement and also put you in more of a nearfield situation which can help temper room interaction a little.

If you could take some measurements of the room using Room EQ Wizard and post the response at the listening postiion, that'd give us a better idea of what's happening.

One thing you're going to have issues with is the simple fact that the room is square so everything piles up in the same places. Second, the room is small, which means it takes proportionately more treatment to tame the bottom end. Add the 2 together and it's a tall order.

Just for giggles, if you can, try pulling the Tri's out a little and sitting the 244's on top of them straddling the corners. I just want to see how much of it might be tangential issues and high up in the room. In theory, that's part of it but in reality, rooms act differently than theory.

Bryan

 

[rufas2000]

I'll try to do some of those things suggested when I get a chance, thanks for all the help.

I moved the behind wall 242 panels to line up on either side of my listening position (against the wall on their stands). This seemed to help with the high frequencies becoming "jumbled" and "fighting" for space.

I also moved the speakers closer together (away from the wall) and the undesirable sound patterns increased so I did the logical in life but not logical in room treatment thing and moved them closer to the wall. They are still "toed in" but not as much (the tweeters are not pointing at me anymore). This was very helpful in reducing the bass issues I was having. Not sure why but I'll go with it.

I'm growing more and more pleased. I think I can squeeze one more monster trap on stand directly behind my listening position. I hope it will further tighten up the bass.

My room has come a long way since I started with the treatments. Thanks again everyone.

 

[peerlesser]

They are still "toed in" but not as much (the tweeters are not pointing at me anymore). This was very helpful in reducing the bass issues I was having. Not sure why but I'll go with it.

A bit surprising if toe angle affects the bass noticeably on monopole pattern speakers. In my experience it only changes the response mostly on dipoles or cardioids. Those RF-82s have one great property, a tractrix horn. It is not purely constant directivity, but they work nicely in most environments.

Here is one of my bassy room projects before and after. The "before" response already has treatment which correct those valleys at low frequencies a lot (they were probably infinite zeros before DIY-traps). The remaining mode peaks I then removed automatically with 8033 DSP. It would have been nice to post the initial response without both DSP and treatments, but bypassing the treatments is huge project as everything is now nicely installed to the room. Removing and putting back curtains is not my favourite projects.

 

[rufas2000]

A bit surprising if toe angle affects the bass noticeably on monopole pattern speakers. In my experience it only changes the response mostly on dipoles or cardioids.

I was thinking their position with regard to the wall was more of a factor than the toe in. Again, I'm not sure why and at some point I'll probably get the stuff needed to measure volume levels but it was an improvement to my ears.

Perhaps the reinforced frequencies resulting from their position closer to the wall are lower and my speakers aren't as sensitive at those lower frequencies and thus there is less to reinforce.

The graph was enlightening but before I can buy that product I would need a subwoofer intergrated into my system, no?

Question: how do those fancy pillar traps work? What do they do exactly and how do you determine where to put it in the room? Could they serve as a makeshift bookshelf speaker stand. I know its not optimal but can they support the weight and would it affect the effectiveness of the pillar?

 

[bpape]

The pillars are designed as corner treatments primarily. We've had some requests for custom height pillars to use as monitor stands. They'll support a good amount of weight - though we haven't tested them to destruction yet

Bryan

 

[rufas2000]

Thanks for the reply as always and if you get a chance could you tell me the pillar trap's dimensions? I didn't see them under product info.

 

[fmw]

The truth is a 10X10 room is simply horrible acoustically. It is square and too small for an audio system. There isn't enough room to get the speakers away from the wall and your listening position will be too close to another wall. Audio needs some room to breathe. You might be able to improve some things slightly. Putting traps will simply deaden a small room like that. It will be akin to listening with headphones. It isn't likely to improve the acoustics at all.

My suggestion is that there isn't anything positive you can do about it. You migh try getting the speakers and listening position as far from walls as you can. Move the sound system if you can. Get used to it if you can't. Sorry.

 

[bpape]

Rufas

Pillars are 16x16 and 48" tall

FMW

It's far from an optimal room. Yes, there are modal overlap issues. Yes, there are proximity issues. Those can be tamed pretty well without it sounding like headphones. One simply needs to listen in a nearfield setup and have equpment that will perform well in same. If there is free reign to do what needs to be done, it can actually sound quite good.

Not everyone can have a 17x21x10 room. Some have large rooms with tons of windows and open walls. Some have small rooms. Some have square. We all work with what we have.

I'll guarantee you that I can set up a room like and have MORE room than a lot of typical shared space where WAF dictates seating against a wall (horrible for bass response and spaciousness) and speakers are sitting just on either side of a big screen TV, shifted off to one side, or sitting in a corner.

Seats won't be against a wall. Speakers won't be within 2' of any boundary. Imaging will be stunning. I have a friend here locally who actually has a room very similar to this. In fact, it's 9x10 with an 8' ceiling. Treatments are thought out and all perform multiple functions. Proper equipment is used for that space (Odyssey Epiphany's, Korato Preamp, Odyssey Khartgo amp, Rega Apollo CD, SqueezeBox 3). The sound is oustanding. Bass is tight and surprisingly extended. Imaging is first rate.

It can be done.

Bryan

 

[rufas2000]

The truth is a 10X10 room is simply horrible acoustically. It is square and too small for an audio system. There isn't enough room to get the speakers away from the wall and your listening position will be too close to another wall. Audio needs some room to breathe. You might be able to improve some things slightly. Putting traps will simply deaden a small room like that. It will be akin to listening with headphones. It isn't likely to improve the acoustics at all.

My suggestion is that there isn't anything positive you can do about it. You migh try getting the speakers and listening position as far from walls as you can. Move the sound system if you can. Get used to it if you can't. Sorry.

I feel the need to respond to this. Before I do let me say that I appreciate the dose of straight talk, I really do. But this touches on something that goes way beyond audio for me.

The room is horrible for audio, believe me I know. And if I had a better room available I would move it. My living room is 14x12 (approximate) with a triangular celing, an opening between it and the kitchen and the wall that is there only goes about three quarters up. Most importantly it is right next to my neighbor's living room (duplex) and noise would be an issue. (I was getting 80-90 decibel readouts from my RS meter for test tones and it was softer than I usually listen to it). IOW: not much better if at all.

The advice of the poster was to accept the situation as it is. That might be good advice, surely it'll save me time & money. I respond with this: there is only one thing in life that I am unable to do that I am proud of not being able to do and that is to accept something I want to do can't be done. I just cannot accept that my audio room will always sound horrible. I couldn't accept that I would always be a pizza maker because I was one for 10 years and people thought I would die as one. Now I have a four year degree in education and work as a public school teacher. Not exactly working on my second million but I'm far from where I was. This trait does not always serve me well, especially when I fall for somebody. I'm not a stalker but I have done some ill advised things in the past (like yesterday) to try to make something happen.

Now I understand that there is only so much treatment I can do just like I understand that once a lady decides you are not the one its time to move on (BTW: in the case above I'm still not sure what effect it had). But until that time comes just because it can't be done is not a legitimate reason not to try anyway if there is any possibility it can help or work.

Sorry about the philosophical rant. Thank you FMW for the dose of realism and the opportunity to write this response from my heart. This was not meant in any way to be a slam against you.

Carry on.