New Shanling A3000 integrated Amp...

[fmw]

I mean to say, amps do indeed affect the sound stage, and that affect is often audible to a person with normal hearing capabilities. (depending of course on the amps being compared)

No they don't and no they aren't audible in a bias controlled objective listening test.

One could make the point that the only piece that produces a soundstage is the source component, everything else down the line only effects it (including the room).

Yes, if you mean the acoustics of the recording venue and the placement of microphones. No, if you mean the record or CD player.

Choosing components and setting up the room is a process of dialing in a series of effects that pleases the individual and maximizes the potential of the equipment.

Perhaps so, but the only parts of the process that will affect soundstage is the room acoustics, speakers and speaker placement.

We do, after all, listen with our minds via our ears, and not through test equipment (Which we read with our brain via our eyes---a very different process indeed.)

Yes, but again, that has nothing to do with the source of differences in soundstage. Test equipment verifies and explains audible differences. If you can't measure it, you can't hear it simply because the test equipment is far more precise than our heaing.

 

[wire]

Unfortunately, amps don't have or produce a soundstage. They produce an amplified signal. What produces the soundstage are the speakers and their interaction with room acoustics. Most people feel that surround sound provides a wider and deeper soundstage. In fact that is exactly its purpose.

What causes you to hear differences in soundstage from an amplifier are beliefs and expectations, not measurable or objectively audible differences.

Hehe
My 3 amps are totally different designs , of course there gonna sound different .
1. Tube amp .
2. SS H Class , Carver TFM 35 , with a chip to ease the SS sound . ( make it tube like sound , but not quite ) . H Class SS , pulls power when needed , runs very cool .
3. Pure B Class SS , Bryston 4b . Must say has the deepest in soundstage out of all 3 amps . Pure Class B . Massive powersupply .
2 run SH and the Bryston is matched with some SDA's .

5.1 to me does not make a deeper soundstage . Everything is up front and to much .
You should try a Bryston out , with SH or SDA effect in 2 channel to here a deep and wide soundstage .

 

[Brett A]

You bet. The last thing you can trust is your ears/brain. They are affected too much by preferences and biases. The purpose of objective listening tests is to eliminate those biases and get down to the truth about audible differences.

Boy, that's a rich statement. (this is fun) It seems you are biased toward double-blind tests and prefer not to trust your own experience.

I see only two sides of the same coin here. There is no absolute. It's all perception. All we can talk about here is what we choose to have inform our perception. For you, science is important, for me my direct experience is.

There is no way that we experience anything other than through our six senses (thoughts/mind being the sixth) You just can't get around that. Science does not provide a seventh. I think science is important, but only as one factor on the way toward an end, that end is a direct, personal listening experience.

And as far as I know, an "audible difference" is one that can be heard. The nature of the cause of that difference is not implicit in the term. If someone hears a difference, they've heard a difference. I don't think we yet have the instruments to measure the authenticity of someone experience.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Since he jumped on this, why not

I mean to say, amps do indeed affect the sound stage,

No such evidence is available. Or has been demonstrated under controlled conditions, you know, the gold yardstick.

and that affect is often audible to a person with normal hearing capabilities. (depending of course on the amps being compared)

And, so are sounds that are not there is also audible to people. I am sure many of us have asked another to repeat what they said, only to be told, nothing was said? Human imagination, or the brain is what causes these aberrations.

One could make the point that the only piece that produces a soundstage is the source component, ...

In reality, soundstage is recorded. It is how the event is mic-ed and mixed. After that, it is a matter of reproduction, period.

...We do, after all, listen with our minds via our ears, and not through test equipment (Which we read with our brain via our eyes---a very different process indeed.)

So, your brain and mind are two different entities? No, it is all in your mind especially when there is no air particles to excite the ear drum, yet, the brain registers something, makes things up. It hates nothingness so it creates.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I'd be interested to know how this informs your experience of listening. Does it result in you trusting measuring equipment more than your ears/brain?

Your brains is very easy to fool with false information, or no information at all. That is how it tends to work. Human psychology is very tricky and interesting. All of our senses are easily fooled.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Boy, that's a rich statement. (this is fun) It seems you are biased toward double-blind tests and prefer not to trust your own experience.

Yes, this is fun indeed. Bias towards anything is what kills you, and makes things rather unreliable.
Testing and demonstrating in a consistent manner is where it is at.

I see only two sides of the same coin here. There is no absolute.

Yep, there are no absolutes, so far.

It's all perception.

Well, if you mean instruments measuring is perception, I am at a loss, I guess.
We do see the measured data and can agree or disagree. And, we can measure or test the reliability of perception, right? sure we can. We have that 20/20 eye chart, don't we? We have hearing tests that is perception, right?

All we can talk about here is what we choose to have inform our perception. For you, science is important, for me my direct experience is.

Just be careful of that first hand, direct experience. I have that experience with a steel pipe and a 5 gal bucket of water and my experience tells me that the water bends that steel pipe and the air straightens it out. I bet I am not the only one with such experiences. So what.

There is no way that we experience anything other than through our six senses (thoughts/mind being the sixth) You just can't get around that. Science does not provide a seventh. I think science is important, but only as one factor on the way toward an end, that end is a direct, personal listening experience.

Science is the truth detector of nature, of our senses, and experiences. Separates facts from fiction, rather nicely.

And as far as I know, an "audible difference" is one that can be heard.

Yes, it can be. BUT, it can also be imagined!!! that happens all the time.
And, science helps us to show when it is real and imagined. The brain likes to imagine a lot, constantly. that is human psychology, not separable from us.

The nature of the cause of that difference is not implicit in the term. If someone hears a difference, they've heard a difference. I don't think we yet have the instruments to measure the authenticity of someone experience.

Of course we can test the reality of perceptions. Perceiving a difference is not always heard. That is where you are mixing things up as imagination is a prime candidate for that perception. Maybe some courses on such subjects, human psychology???

 

[mtrycrafts]

Component designers don't design power cords.

They don't? And, they don't spec for that?
If yours doesn't, find a better designer, end of story.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I use a computer power cord on my AV505 , seems to work fine on my 6.1 system .

Seems to me it should do just fine too.

 

[fmw]

Boy, that's a rich statement. (this is fun) It seems you are biased toward double-blind tests and prefer not to trust your own experience.

I spent 30 years as a high-end audiophile. Trust me, I've been there and done that. I learned the truth and fully understood placebo effect in audio about 10 years ago when I got involved in objective listening tests. Since then I take a jaded view of subjective opinions about audible differences in equipment. I'm not suggesting all equipment sounds the same. I am only suggesting here that amplifiers don't have or produce a soundstage.

I see only two sides of the same coin here. There is no absolute. It's all perception. All we can talk about here is what we choose to have inform our perception. For you, science is important, for me my direct experience is.

For you perhaps, but not for me. There are audible differences and inaudible differences. That is an absolute. Bias controlled listening tests will uncover the truth every time - absolutely.

There is no way that we experience anything other than through our six senses (thoughts/mind being the sixth) You just can't get around that. Science does not provide a seventh. I think science is important, but only as one factor on the way toward an end, that end is a direct, personal listening experience.

I haven't said anything different. What I'm explaining is that there is more to hearing than the vibrations of waveforms against the eardrum. The brain processes it and adds other factors - perception as an example you used above.

And as far as I know, an "audible difference" is one that can be heard.

Obviously.

The nature of the cause of that difference is not implicit in the term. If someone hears a difference, they've heard a difference. I don't think we yet have the instruments to measure the authenticity of someone experience.

What we hear and what we perceive are sometimes different. Not always, but sometimes. The only way to know for sure is to eliminate perception from the equation. Instruments don't measure the authenticity of anything. In the electronics industry they measure electronic parameters. If you say this sounds darker than that, then a measured frequency response curve would back that up. If it doesn't, then this doesn't sound darker than that. You only perceive that it does. If you can't measure it, you can't hear it. That's just a fact. Not a subject for debate.

If you prefer to operate with perceptions rather than realities then that's OK with me. I did it myself for 30 years. My only problem with the posts was ascribing something to an amplifier (soundstage) that is not a characteristic of amplifiers. I viewed it as misinformation.

 

[fmw]

Hehe
My 3 amps are totally different designs , of course there gonna sound different .

Maybe they do sound different but it isn't a reasonable assumption. More reasonable is that don't sound different.

1. Tube amp .
2. SS H Class , Carver TFM 35 , with a chip to ease the SS sound . ( make it tube like sound , but not quite ) . H Class SS , pulls power when needed , runs very cool .
3. Pure B Class SS , Bryston 4b . Must say has the deepest in soundstage out of all 3 amps . Pure Class B . Massive powersupply .
2 run SH and the Bryston is matched with some SDA's .

Because it is designed differently doesn't mean that it must sound different. People who do competent amplifier designs strive to have the amp amplify the waveforms without changing their shape. For the most part they are successful. Sometimes they are not. Sometimes they even engineer sonic anomalies into the design. I don't think that is a very good idea but some do.

5.1 to me does not make a deeper soundstage . Everything is up front and to much .
You should try a Bryston out , with SH or SDA effect in 2 channel to here a deep and wide soundstage .

Soundstage depth isn't much of an issue. The sound stage should place you an appropriate distance from the music makers. With close miked recordings the sound stage is usually messed up in terms of depth. With simpler recordings it can be very realistic. Meaningful changes in soundstage would normally result from increasing its width rather than its depth - to make our listening room seem larger like the performance venue. Most people think surround sound does that. I do.

I understand that you perceive changes in soundstage with a particular amplifer but you would get over that if you got involved in objective listening tests. We used to have a pretty nice audiophile society in this area. We got involved in objective testing and most were "cured" of the audiophilia. The group is completely gone. We all still enjoy listening to music as much as we ever did. I, for one, enjoy it more because I don't spend any effort listening to the equipment.

 

[omegaspeedy]

The funny thing is there is so much air between the instruments in my Shanlings 1:1 scale sound stage, you can walk upto and behind the players, turn around and look at their backs! Thats pritty cool. There is also a lot of air comming out of some of your mouths.

The builders of amps don't make power chords. They import a big box from China or in my case go down the road and get a box. Generally these chords are crap and need replacing.

Every component in your system contributes to the size depth and shape of the sound stage produced. Don't kid yourself, thats a fact.

 

[Brett A]

Every component in your system contributes to the size depth and shape of the sound stage produced. Don't kid yourself, thats a fact.

Ahhhh, a breath of fresh air. I've been enjoying hanging out with these "objective blind tests" people. Its a different way of looking at things.

 

[majorloser]

"To each his own" & "Whatever makes you happy"

We all have our own beliefs and that's what makes us all unique individuals.

But a "belief" does not become a "truth" without proof.
Here in lies the problem with humanity. Truth is hard to come by.

 

[Brett A]

"To each his own" & "Whatever makes you happy"

We all have our own beliefs and that's what makes us all unique individuals.

But a "belief" does not become a "truth" without proof.
Here in lies the problem with humanity. Truth is hard to come by.

I like the 2500 year old argument that offers that there is no truth outside of our perception, (at least not one we have ready access to).

The truth is, we cannot really even get to the truth even about truth.

And the fact that we all have beliefs (and we are quite attached to them) makes us all the same.

By the way, did I mention that I bought a new Shanling amp and that I love it?

 

[Matt34]

Every component in your system contributes to the size depth and shape of the sound stage produced. Don't kid yourself, thats a fact.

I'll even go to say this may have a hint of truth to it but to what extent each contributes to the sound stage vary greatly. I'll take the better speakers and a treated room over the higher "quailty" component cables and speaker wire any day.

I really would like to hear how an aftermarket power cable improves SQ?

 

[Brett A]

I really would like to hear how an aftermarket power cable improves SQ?

Have you tried aftermarket AC cords in your own system? A good high end audio store will often loan equipment. Some oneline retailers will too.

 

[majorloser]

By the way, did I mention that I bought a new Shanling amp and that I love it?

Now that's the best kind of "truth"...

HAPPINESS

 

[gus6464]

Well the A3000 is a hybrid integrated with a tube preamp section so technically it can sound different. Only thing is that beast uses electricity like no other at 500-800w I believe.

 

[Matt34]

Have you tried aftermarket AC cords in your own system? A good high end audio store will often loan equipment. Some oneline retailers will too.

Nope, hence the question.

 

[Brett A]

Well the A3000 is a hybrid integrated with a tube preamp section so technically it can sound different. Only thing is that beast uses electricity like no other at 500-800w I believe.

Yes, 800 watts. My electic bill went up $10/month.

And it actually isn't a tube hybrid. It is a solid state amp with a built in tube buffer for the 4 RCA inputs. The two balanced inputs bypass the buffer and go directly to the SS pre-section. This important detail is sometimes muddled in the info about this piece.