Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

[bandphan]

you tell us where it doesnt if your so educated

 

[asahikasei]

you tell us where it doesnt if your so educated

What? I just posted pictures showing you that there is no fancy power/pre amp setup in the lexicon and you reply with this? How about the goldmund player?

 

[Haoleb]

A good forum should welcome controversy.

controversy yes. trolls no.

 

[asahikasei]

controversy yes. trolls no.

How am I a troll?

I should make one more statement before I bow out of the thread. To me, at least, debating the issue is more compelling than attacking the poster. Obviously, nobody liked the post but the group's reaction was to insult the poster rather than to find flaws in the poster's argument. My own impression from reading the thread is that poster was probably right and nobody else liked the truth. That's an impression based only the behavior of those responding to the OP. I don't know if it's true or not. But you all should think about that a little.

Here is what he just said and you did just that.

 

[Addy]

im sorry but this is one of the most entertaining threads this month...its like a soap! its better then watching t.v lol IN HD ahahah...at least we are all passionate about avs if nothing else can be agreed on!

 

[highfihoney]

Anatomy of a Troll.



Let's disect A troll's thread on this site & look at all the clear indicators of trolling.

1 Thread titled with a controversial subject.

2 When nobody nibbles at the bait he bumps his own thread & asks for a specific response"If anybody can tell me why a hi end processor will sound better im all ear's.

3 The OP now sits back & watches until he has somebody to quote,Why does it make you mad when you find out that hi end processors are nothing special.

Where did the quoted member say anything about any hi end unit being anything special,he didnt?

4 The OP supplied links to other threads on other sites to use as a reference to bolster his own position,however the OP failed to disclose that these were infact his threads under one of his alias'es.

5 The OP totally sidesteps the issue of him using multiple usernames on this & many other forums at once.

6The OP never deny's (sidestep) the fact that he himself posted this exact same thread on this site 2 times in a row over a 2 week period,the first time was in a thread he hijacked,after being warned by a mod he then posted his own thread,he also fails to remember that he was not only warned by a moderator for his arguementative posting & baseless accusations of inferiority(see denon threads)he forgets was warned about this type of troll/baiting by not one but two administrators for argumentative posting.

7 The OP then posts more links to his own threads on other sites as back up for his opinion & points to them as evidence of fact.

8 The OP then proclaims the information in his link to be correct,It seems the speculation in the RV-5 thread is correct

9 The OP uses every post to further his position even if the quote has nothing at all to do with audio in any way.

SETH=L,now is your chance to say something to get banned.

Tawnos,are you saying the RV-5 is not a rebadge?

Where did Seth ever say this or give this impression.

Tawnos,it is well known that Lexicon amps used to have a connection with Bryston & now ATI.

Once again when did Seth ever say anything to dispute or challenge that fact.

Tawnos,please prove any of this wrong & please defend the MC-12.

Once again he ask's for a specific response from a member who not once has said anything to defend hi end gear.

10 The OP ask's for a specific response from another member (me) to dispute his claims,nowhere has this member disputed anything about any gear.

Tawnos,Highfihoney,again you have nothing to say why something in the high end would sound better.

11 When the OP cant draw in a well know high end owner into his troll he then attacks the members sense of honor.

Tawnoseven with exact proof that the RV-5 is a rebadged HK you still say nothing,this speaks volumes about you.

12 The OP once again takes a quote & distorts it in order to draw a specific response from the quoted member.

SETH-Li have no active interest in seperates,my Teac Boston system that i paid less than $200 for makes me perfectly happy.

Tawnoswhy then are you sticking up for the high end & Lexicon.

Where has Seth ever said Lexicon makes better sounding gear?

13 The OP then inserts information into the thread that has no bearing on the issue at hand,hoping to draw more responses.

Link to Krell.

Link to Merridian.

WTF does Krell or Meridian have to do with Lexicon or HK ?

14 To be continued...............................................

 

[Seth=L]

Then where does this huge sonic improvment come from? Once again people disagree with me yet they offer nothing to defend their position.

I never said there is a huge sonic difference.

What is your stance on high end speaker systems?

 

[Seth=L]

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/goldmund-v-s-pioneer-285743/
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=42879

Remember when we found out the $6000 goldmund CD player was a rebadged $150 pioneer.

LOL, you mean they took a Pioneer DVD player and made CD player out of it? What the hell is the toroid doing in there?, it seems completely unnecessary.

I agree, that in some instances this occurs. You can't shoot down all high end gear just because you found a few faults.

I will take a less agressive approach since I am not 100% sure you are a troll. But so help me, if you are. Naughty.

 

[Seth=L]

I laughed aloud at your post Levi, that was great.

 

[Haoleb]

LOL, you mean they took a Pioneer DVD player and made CD player out of it? What the hell is the toroid doing in there?, it seems completely unnecessary.

I was kinda wondering what they did with the power supply myself as the original is a SMPS and doesnt need that big toroid. My guess is they are using the Toroid and their own rectification and filtering for the audio stage of the circuitry, I have seen that done before on some modded equipment.

 

[asahikasei]

highfihoney;

Where did the quoted member say anything about any hi end unit being anything special,he didnt?

Then where is this sonic improvment coming from?

The OP supplied links to other threads on other sites to use as a reference to bolster his own position,however the OP failed to disclose that these were infact his threads under one of his alias'es.

No, the only thread that I started was about the halco using the Vinci Labs Titan OEM SSP platform, which it does so why would it matter?

13 The OP then inserts information into the thread that has no bearing on the issue at hand,hoping to draw more responses.

Link to Krell.

Link to Merridian.

WTF does Krell or Meridian have to do with Lexicon or HK ?

It was stated in the thread that the high end holds its value better, which it does not and that is why the links to audiogon where posted.

I should make one more statement before I bow out of the thread. To me, at least, debating the issue is more compelling than attacking the poster. Obviously, nobody liked the post but the group's reaction was to insult the poster rather than to find flaws in the poster's argument. My own impression from reading the thread is that poster was probably right and nobody else liked the truth. That's an impression based only the behavior of those responding to the OP. I don't know if it's true or not. But you all should think about that a little.

FMW posted this and yet you did not read it and are doing exactly what he is saying.

 

[asahikasei]

I never said there is a huge sonic difference.

Then you agree with me so why are you arguing?

I was kinda wondering what they did with the power supply myself as the original is a SMPS and doesnt need that big toroid. My guess is they are using the Toroid and their own rectification and filtering for the audio stage of the circuitry, I have seen that done before on some modded equipment.

So you are saying you support goldmund for taking a $150 pioneer source and putting it in a different case then selling it for $6000?

 

[asahikasei]

I am here asking a simple question that is all.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
Thank you, this happens everywhere on audio forums where anything high end can not be discussed. ...?

Well, audio does not have an exclusivity on this, I bet.
People have their pet belief systems and when challenged, you see the results.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I never said there is a huge sonic difference.

What is your stance on high end speaker systems?

How is that relevant to discussing a CD player? Does one need to support the other? Or, can they individually stand on their own accord?

 

[mtrycrafts]

You can see how little I know about high end watches. To the rest of us, however, it is a product purchased for things other than peformance value.

My own preference is for the Citizen solar powered watches which need neither batteries nor winding. Good performance, reasonable price.

But does it have storage capacity for 30 phone numbers?, 5 alarm modes, stop watch, etc.

 

[Haoleb]

So you are saying you support goldmund for taking a $150 pioneer source and putting it in a different case then selling it for $6000?

Not by a long shot. I would be extremely dissapointed to open up my 6,000 dollar player and find that. Without a doubt it is a pretty cheesy setup. Doesnt mean everything high end is like that.

 

[Haoleb]

People always assume that high end high priced audio will be superior in every aspect to your standard receiver, this can be true when dealing with analog 2CH setups but in home theater it is not. High end companies either do a direct rebadged and sell it for a huge profit or they design their own but as you will see there is nothing high end about it.

Lexicon MC-12.

Here we see the Digital I/O Board "top" and Analog I/O Board "bottom" obviously they are in no way superior to how a receiver is built/designed. Obviously there will be no sonic improvements using a DSP/DAC since the high end does not use anything special or better then what is used in today's receivers so the difference would be in the analog section of the product. As you can see there is nothing superior about the analog section of a very expensive Lexicon MC-12.

http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/Lexicon/mc12/smr_images.html

Here is where I found the pictures.

Halcro SSP100/200.

The halcro uses the Vinci Labs Titan OEM SSP platform.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=973556

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=18281&prevloaded=1&rid=0&SQ=0&start=0

In these threads we found out that they do infact use the titan platform.

As you can see by the back layout the halcro "top" and parasound "bottom" have the same layout and most of it is exactly the same. The halcro also uses the following DSP/DAC, Audio DSP: Motorola DSP56367 Audio DAC: ASAHI KASEI AK4395 The HDMI also has an Audio DSP: Motorola DSP56371.

Mcintosh MX135/136.

The DSP system Mac uses.

http://www.mds.com/products/product.asp?prod=DAE-5

The analog section for one channel.

This shows the power supply section of the mac, the two things I did like about the mac is the power section and the analog section when compaired to the lexicon.

Ok first off, You start the thread saying that the DSP stuff has nothing to do with it. Then you show pictures of the DSP areas of some stuff like that is relevant

Secondly, How is the lexicon not superior? You can tell this by looking at a picture? I am an experienced electronics tech and I cannot.

You say that high end companies do a direct rebadge of other stuff or design it themselves and there is nothing special about it. You are assuming that a cheap peice of crap that uses +/- 15% carbon resistors and garbage PC boards is the same as something with a high quality PCB with something like the massive ground plane such as the MAC or Milspec metal film resistors and 105 degrees c capacitors etc are the same. That doesnt even take into account the chassis, the layout, the warranty, the astetics and just the overall quality. You point out the analog section of the mcintosh. What did you expect to see? Platinum plated OPamps with mini heat sinks and superconductors connecting everything?

There are ALOT of high end products that are total crap. Just because something is expensive doesnt mean its good. There are also alot of products that are truly a peice of engineering and craftsmanship.

The Halcro and the Parasound processors are both relatively within the same price range. So its not really like saying Look, Its a bose lifestyle system and it uses the same parts as this 10,000 dollar processor. I have personally worked with that exact parasound processor and I was a bit dissapointed with the build on the outside. I hadnt opened it up but it didnt feel as hefty as I was expecting. I also thought the screen on the front was stupid and did not have good picture quality.

Basically you are pointing out some products on the market which in your original post show pictures of things that dont really explain anything period. Perhaps since you say that there is nothing special about them and keep asking for a reason why. Why dont you tell US why the pictures of the gear in your original post are no different than the average reciever.

Then you post links to audiogon ads about depreciation. And?... As far as im concerned thats good because those of us who cant just blow 10 grand on something perhaps can still afford to get it. You dont buy a nice car for the resale value. Or a computer, or a.......

 

[highfihoney]

And?...

I take it we all got the same pm

 

[Seth=L]

How is that relevant to discussing a CD player? Does one need to support the other? Or, can they individually stand on their own accord?

I am fighting fire with fire.