Rap not only sucks ,it causes seizures.

[highfihoney]

Well, you make a perfect example of my point earlier. People that do evil, aren't necessary evil. We can't define Tupac like that, or anyone else for that matter.

Look,im not trying to change your veiws on rap,thats impossible, just as you'll never change my view point on rap,what i am trying to show you is why all of us older folk despise all rap.

Where you missed the point in my anaology comparing my life to Tupac's life is that i changed & did good things & only good things,you cant be a thug all night long then decide to donate to some scolarship fund & point to the donation saying look im a good person,you cnt run around with a loaded gun all night then write a song against violence,any person who is in constant trouble with the law exibits a pattern of anti social behavior & no amount of good things done at the same time can cover it up.

Pablo Escobar was revered by many poor people beacuse he fed & clothed them,helped get them medicine,built them homes,at the same time was killing judges & anybody else who stood in his way,all the good that he did was self serving & never changed the person he really was ,which was a heartless killer.

For Tupac or any other gangster to be able to say they are now a good person it would require them to never do bad again,you cant be both bad & good at the same time.

 

[Thaedium]

Pure rubbish Hifihoney.

Thats the difference between myself & Tupac,i know i was an a-hole who hurt people & i changed,Tupac on the other hand loved being a thug,the more felony's he committed only helped his rep,he loved people being afraid of him where i cant stand the thought of it.

There differences are many. Tupac was a motivated force with strong political and social issues at the forefront of his agenda. You commiting random acts of violence in your youth is no where near comparable.

Saying he loved having people afraid of him is pointless rhetoric, you have no concept of what you are talking about in this instance, you knew him not at all, you've never studied his lyrics, you've never done any research into his life. You look at a wikipedia fact sheet and extoll your great knowledge on the subject as if it were the educated truth. Further, you point out your own shortcommings and put them on his shoulders. As if your experiences are one and the same as his, and that there is no excuses for what he has done because you've learned there was none for you.

Stop,just stop,your killin me

I cant remember a time when i laughed this hard after reading the speel above.

Here's another anagram used by rappers.

Believe whatever you like on this matter, however, don't post satire as if it makes fallacy of the usage of acronymns in relation specific to Tupac Shakur. Anyone can hide behind created acronymns but few unlike Tupac actually created and wrote down specific intents for these. The language used in his forms of lyricism were not happenstance, but planned. Tupac sat down with Dr. Mutulu Shakur in prison and created what is known as the Thug Code, as a way to try and intercede and curb many of the dangers presented in the Ghettos.

You can judge a book by its cover,we all do.

Of course you can, and you can also be wrong in your judgement.

Look,im not trying to change your veiws on rap,thats impossible, just as you'll never change my view point on rap,what i am trying to show you is why all of us older folk despise all rap.

Glad to read it, but the simple fact is you have not approached this subject in that manner at all. You come off as arrogant and authorative with no basis for either approaches.

What you are really trying to do is demean an entire genre based on several poignantly flippant comments with no real substance in your messages. Not all "older folk" as you would say agree with you at all, I know plenty of self-respecting and community orientated people that are older that enjoy rap.

For Tupac or any other gangster to be able to say they are now a good person it would require them to never do bad again,you cant be both bad & good at the same time.

In your last post, and in this particular paragraph you have entered a highly debatable topic that excedes the scope of rap itself. I'm not sure I really want to address this simply because its all relative to your position and viewpoint on the subject. However I will try to make an attempt at outlining many of the problems within this and more specifically, how it relates to Tupac and not Rap as a whole.

I work for the Canadian Forces, we operate in Afghanistan routinely enganging in combat with Taliban and insurgents. Combat isn't pretty, people die incredibly horrific deaths. All too often bystanders get caught up in this and become victims as well. Yet Canadian Forces are constantly deploying PRT (provincial reconstruction teams) to build schools, create infrastructure such as roads/bridges. To provide relief in the form of food and medical aide, etc. The West commonly accepts this as a fairly noble goal, and yet to do this violence must be issued in order to conduct these operations. I'm only citing this as an example, and would prefer we not get off topic too much by delving into opinions on foreign policy. Police often have to cause harm to individuals in order to obtain compliance for the greater purposes of peace enforcement. Any blanket statement such as the one I quoted last is a bit asinine.

So in what way was Tupac's violence ever justifiable?

That is the question you should be asking, and it brings me back to statements I have made previously regarding Tupac Shakur. I will try to be brief about this, as I've stated before anyone who has done significant research into his life would be aware of much of what I'm saying now.

Tupac was first and foremost a protege of fundamentalist Black Panthers. His experiences in life created the psychology that motivated his political and social views of America. He was not a fundamentalist Black Panther, but rather something different. In his eyes, in his experiences, the Government was conducting itself so as to surpress the poor in the ghettos, and to further the benefit of those in control. Agencies such as the police, though conceptually ideal were corrupt and utilized as a tool by the government to further enslave the poor. The Justice system, also ideally a system for peace was being manipulated by those in control to further weaken and disrupt the growth and prosperity of the ghettos. Whether this is true or not, this is the movement in which he was a leader. In his eyes certain types of violence was advocated. I'm not saying that all of the things he did were simply politically motivated, its fairly well established that Tupac also had a dark side, just like all of us do. The song "Hit'em Up" is a perfect example of times when Tupac lost focus of his agenda and retaliated in anger without purpose.

There is so much more to say, but I feel I'm losing focus in all of this banter going on here. I do violence in my life, I've done many bad things. At the end of the day, to me it is justifiable so long as I do what I do for my family and community. Am I bad person? I don't care, I am. Was Tupac a bad person? I don't care, he had messages of importantance that still have meaning today to relay. Messages for which I can personally identify with. If you don't, or can't, thats fine. Don't listen to it.

Don't foist your uninformed judgements upon us, simply say; "I don't like rap." and be done with it. If your going to give us reasons why you think something in particular about rap, especially when they're negative and demeaning, you should be able to back it up with some concrete evidence.

If I am fool, it is, at least, a doubting one; and I envy no one the certainty of his self-approved wisdom.

- George Byron

 

[highfihoney]

Pure rubbish Hifihoney.



There differences are many. Tupac was a motivated force with strong political and social issues at the forefront of his agenda. You commiting random acts of violence in your youth is no where near comparable.

Saying he loved having people afraid of him is pointless rhetoric, you have no concept of what you are talking about in this instance, you knew him not at all, you've never studied his lyrics, you've never done any research into his life. You look at a wikipedia fact sheet and extoll your great knowledge on the subject as if it were the educated truth. Further, you point out your own shortcommings and put them on his shoulders. As if your experiences are one and the same as his, and that there is no excuses for what he has done because you've learned there was none for you.



Believe whatever you like on this matter, however, don't post satire as if it makes fallacy of the usage of acronymns in relation specific to Tupac Shakur. Anyone can hide behind created acronymns but few unlike Tupac actually created and wrote down specific intents for these. The language used in his forms of lyricism were not happenstance, but planned. Tupac sat down with Dr. Mutulu Shakur in prison and created what is known as the Thug Code, as a way to try and intercede and curb many of the dangers presented in the Ghettos.



Of course you can, and you can also be wrong in your judgement.



Glad to read it, but the simple fact is you have not approached this subject in that manner at all. You come off as arrogant and authorative with no basis for either approaches.

What you are really trying to do is demean an entire genre based on several poignantly flippant comments with no real substance in your messages. Not all "older folk" as you would say agree with you at all, I know plenty of self-respecting and community orientated people that are older that enjoy rap.



In your last post, and in this particular paragraph you have entered a highly debatable topic that excedes the scope of rap itself. I'm not sure I really want to address this simply because its all relative to your position and viewpoint on the subject. However I will try to make an attempt at outlining many of the problems within this and more specifically, how it relates to Tupac and not Rap as a whole.

I work for the Canadian Forces, we operate in Afghanistan routinely enganging in combat with Taliban and insurgents. Combat isn't pretty, people die incredibly horrific deaths. All too often bystanders get caught up in this and become victims as well. Yet Canadian Forces are constantly deploying PRT (provincial reconstruction teams) to build schools, create infrastructure such as roads/bridges. To provide relief in the form of food and medical aide, etc. The West commonly accepts this as a fairly noble goal, and yet to do this violence must be issued in order to conduct these operations. I'm only citing this as an example, and would prefer we not get off topic too much by delving into opinions on foreign policy. Police often have to cause harm to individuals in order to obtain compliance for the greater purposes of peace enforcement. Any blanket statement such as the one I quoted last is a bit asinine.

So in what way was Tupac's violence ever justifiable?

That is the question you should be asking, and it brings me back to statements I have made previously regarding Tupac Shakur. I will try to be brief about this, as I've stated before anyone who has done significant research into his life would be aware of much of what I'm saying now.

Tupac was first and foremost a protege of fundamentalist Black Panthers. His experiences in life created the psychology that motivated his political and social views of America. He was not a fundamentalist Black Panther, but rather something different. In his eyes, in his experiences, the Government was conducting itself so as to surpress the poor in the ghettos, and to further the benefit of those in control. Agencies such as the police, though conceptually ideal were corrupt and utilized as a tool by the government to further enslave the poor. The Justice system, also ideally a system for peace was being manipulated by those in control to further weaken and disrupt the growth and prosperity of the ghettos. Whether this is true or not, this is the movement in which he was a leader. In his eyes certain types of violence was advocated. I'm not saying that all of the things he did were simply politically motivated, its fairly well established that Tupac also had a dark side, just like all of us do. The song "Hit'em Up" is a perfect example of times when Tupac lost focus of his agenda and retaliated in anger without purpose.

There is so much more to say, but I feel I'm losing focus in all of this banter going on here. I do violence in my life, I've done many bad things. At the end of the day, to me it is justifiable so long as I do what I do for my family and community. Am I bad person? I don't care, I am. Was Tupac a bad person? I don't care, he had messages of importantance that still have meaning today to relay. Messages for which I can personally identify with. If you don't, or can't, thats fine. Don't listen to it.

Don't foist your uninformed judgements upon us, simply say; "I don't like rap." and be done with it. If your going to give us reasons why you think something in particular about rap, especially when they're negative and demeaning, you should be able to back it up with some concrete evidence.

- George Byron

Wow,what a post,where to begin.

First & of most concern, its scary as all he!! to me knowing there is a member of armed forces comparing a 6 yr old child getting caught in the crossfire of ghetto gang violence to a civilian getting caught in the crossfire in a war zone,this has got to be the single stupidest thing ive ever read & i mean that too,WTF are you thinking

Secondly,you ask for evidence as if were talking about amplifiers where you can dig deep & pull out some dbt stuff,then say prove it,i did prove it,i listed his arrest record,i listed his felony convictions,they are a matter of public record,but you deny it all under the guise that we dont know the circumstances,BS,extremely weak arguement on your part i must say,the concrete evidence you ask for is staring you smack dab in the face, but you wont see it & you never will.

Then you have the nerve to say Tupac sat down with DR Mukulu Shakur like thats some great honor,are we talking about the same Mutulu here,the same 10 most wanted Mutulu Shakur,the same Mutulu Shakur that was a member of the Black Liberation Army,the same Mutulu who masterminded the Brinks Truck robbery were all the guards were murdered,the same Mutulu Skakur that helped his sister break out of jail & flee to cuba,the same Mutulu Shakur who's primary message was race war,if so then were talking about Tupac's stepdaddy arent we,BTW,Tupac stepdaddy's doctorate is in acupuncture not philosophy.

Some of us lived through Tupac's daddy's rampage & werent still being breast fed,not wilkipedia info,too bad you didnt & only know whats been glamorized about him,DR Mutulu Shakur was a monster & a multiple murdered,saying that Tupac sat down with his step daddy in federal prison & wrote a "THUG CODE" is like saying Jeffery Dahlmer sat down with Charles Manson & wrote poetry,both are equally stupid.

Then you go off & try to slam my short commings of violence,which is ok,im old enough for that not to phase me any longer,my short commings are my own & i pay for them,with one major difference between me & Tupac,ive never hurt anybody since & i never blamed society for my violence,his short commings of violence were with him till the end & he always passed the buck, so nothing he did was his own fault.

Lastly,you reccomend that i simply say "i hate rap" & move on,in a thread that i started,instead why dont you say that "you love rap" & move on,or better yet start your own thread about Tupac & his great legacy of peace & brotherhood.

 

[MDS]

Highfihoney,
You apparently do not see that the gangsta rappers are really highly educated socialists with a deep and powerful social message that they have 'dumbed down' in an attempt to reach their peers. Don't worry...I don't see it and never will.

Now while I generally dislike Rap, it is the kind of rap that is being discussed in this thread. Other songs that get classifed as rap or hip-hop that have a good dance beat and aren't full of n*gga this *ho that and other themes that indicate the author is barely more advanced than a primate I can deal with and actually like some of them - although I couldn't tell you the name of the song or the artist because I do tend to unfairly lump them all into the same category.

I think the best course of action is to just accept that there are other viewpoints. I personally cannot see how anyone can attribute any kind of good or social 'conscience' to most of that crap but obviously some people do.

 

[Thaedium]

Absolutely astonishing how you can so easily twist my words Hifihoney.

First & of most concern, its scary as all he!! to me knowing there is a member of armed forces comparing a 6 yr old child getting caught in the crossfire of ghetto gang violence to a civilian getting caught in the crossfire in a war zone,this has got to be the single stupidest thing ive ever read & i mean that too,WTF are you thinking

No where am I comparing a 6 yr old getting caught in gang related violence to civilian casualties in a war zone. How you read that out of what I have stated baffles me. I was citing examples of good things occuring from bad things, in reference to your incredibly ignorant blanket statement. I never once said what Tupac did was equatable to what the CF does overseas. I also stated clearly that Tupac was involved in violence that wasn't justifiable with regards to his personal convictions for political and social change. The fact you would accuse me of equating the two seperate things says a lot about you, and angers me in no small ways. Rest assured, that were you physically capable, and a serving member I would definently take you outback and teach you some respect.

Secondly,you ask for evidence as if were talking about amplifiers where you can dig deep & pull out some dbt stuff,then say prove it,i did prove it,i listed his arrest record,i listed his felony convictions,they are a matter of public record,

WTF does Tupac's arrest and convictions have to do with the merrit of the music? Nothing. How many across all genres of music have done terrible things? Lots. Does a whole genre cease to be good based on that? Nope. The evidence I'm asking for is to support the very supposition in this thread title you created. Stop being so daft already man.

Then you have the nerve to say Tupac sat down with DR Mukulu Shakur like thats some great honor,are we talking about the same Mutulu here,the same 10 most wanted Mutulu Shakur,the same Mutulu Shakur that was a member of the Black Liberation Army,the same Mutulu who masterminded the Brinks Truck robbery were all the guards were murdered,the same Mutulu Skakur that helped his sister break out of jail & flee to cuba,the same Mutulu Shakur who's primary message was race war,if so then were talking about Tupac's stepdaddy arent we,BTW,Tupac stepdaddy's doctorate is in acupuncture not philosophy.

Some of us lived through Tupac's daddy's rampage & werent still being breast fed,not wilkipedia info,too bad you didnt & only know whats been glamorized about him,DR Mutulu Shakur was a monster & a multiple murdered,saying that Tupac sat down with his step daddy in federal prison & wrote a "THUG CODE" is like saying Jeffery Dahlmer sat down with Charles Manson & wrote poetry,both are equally stupid.

Again, WTF are you talking about? He is a Dr, you depriving him of that title doesn't lesson his accomplishment in that regard. Me including doesn't make me reverant of his actions. I never once mentioned him other then when I said Tupac sat down with him to develope the "Thug Code" - other then that, he is irrelevant to my entire post. As for your analogy, the two are no where near similar. In what way was it stupid? Was it stupid that they got the leaders of the bloods and crips to sign it? Was it stupid that at least some measures were being enforced within these already organized gangs to reduce violence towards women and children? Clearly they weren't going to listen to authorities, so any measure that reduces violence done towards women and children I think is a good thing. Apparently you don't? or am I twisting your words like you were mine? rhetorical question, I'm sure you are happy that women and children aren't being purposely targeted by gangs too, even if you equated it previously with Dahlmer and Manson writing poetry.

Then you go off & try to slam my short commings of violence,which is ok,im old enough for that not to phase me any longer,

I never slammed you once for your shortcommings. I don't care about yours. I slammed you for equating your violent acts as a youth to Tupac's politically motivated ones. There is a difference.

with one major difference between me & Tupac,ive never hurt anybody since & i never blamed society for my violence,his short commings of violence were with him till the end & he always passed the buck, so nothing he did was his own fault.

Again, unsupported claims. Contrary to your claim, he definently owned certain violent actions of his own doing and admitted to them. Because you are unable to differentiate between those acts of violence is of no importance to me, and of no importance to Rap as a genre.

Lastly,you reccomend that i simply say "i hate rap" & move on,in a thread that i started,instead why dont you say that "you love rap" & move on,or better yet start your own thread about Tupac & his great legacy of peace & brotherhood.

I would move on, except I work for the 3rd Battalion of the Royal Canadian Regiment, the motto is; Never Pass a Fault. I try to live by that motto in all aspects of my life, its a good one even if it had nothing to do with my work. I see a subject that has great personal meaning to me being wantonly attacked by someone being incredibly immature and ignorant and I feel obligated to respond. Cry about it if it makes you feel better, sling some more sh*t if you can't handle it. I really don't care.

Can you show me what any of the "classic" artists like 2 pac have or ever had to offer that is good,Tupac may very well have been one of the most violent savages of all the gangsta rappers & his life was offensive to the civilized world.

I did just that, I listed a vast quantity of works done by Tupac that have offered good wholesome positive messages. Despite all your ravings that Tupac was some sort of savage criminal entity a great many good things happened because of him. His legacy paved the way for Tupac Amaru Shakur Foundation, founded by his, as you would say, incredibly evil mother. The TASF sponsors essay contests, charity events, a performing arts day camp for teenagers and undergraduate scholarships. So powerful was his legacy that Harvard University co-sponsored an academic symposium entitled "All Eyez on Me: Tupac Shakur and the Search for the Modern Folk Hero." The speakers discussed a wide range of topics dealing with Shakur's impact on everything from entertainment to sociology.

But of course, you must be right. His criminal records vastly out weigh all of the good that has come from his work.

Frankly Hifihoney, people with your limited grasp and scope with the reality of the world sicken me. You convienently sum everything up on face value, with no care or regard for informed communication. If this seems like a personal attack don't ponder it. It is. I'm tired of bantering with you, it serves my purpose now to simply point flaws in your character now because thats all that seems to affect you. If you care to re-open civil debate, just let me know. I'm willing to apologize for being a pr*ck when I know that the person I'm dealing with isn't being purposely pigheaded. For now however, I've seen no indication to the contrary.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

What is amazing is Dr. Dre and Snoop Dog haven't gotten into half the trouble that Britney Spears has gotten herself into. Amazing

Rappers do have a tendency to shoot each other, though.

 

[stratman]

When was the last time you heard two jazz guys shooting it out? Or a classical music drive-by? LOL!!!!!! (two conductors wearing tuxes throwing batons at each other as their limos wizz by!!!

 

[cbraver]

Look,im not trying to change your veiws on rap,thats impossible, just as you'll never change my view point on rap,what i am trying to show you is why all of us older folk despise all rap.

I don't think all older people despise all rap.

Where you missed the point in my anaology comparing my life to Tupac's life is that i changed & did good things & only good things,you cant be a thug all night long then decide to donate to some scolarship fund & point to the donation saying look im a good person,you cnt run around with a loaded gun all night then write a song against violence,any person who is in constant trouble with the law exibits a pattern of anti social behavior & no amount of good things done at the same time can cover it up.

Pablo Escobar was revered by many poor people beacuse he fed & clothed them,helped get them medicine,built them homes,at the same time was killing judges & anybody else who stood in his way,all the good that he did was self serving & never changed the person he really was ,which was a heartless killer.

For Tupac or any other gangster to be able to say they are now a good person it would require them to never do bad again,you cant be both bad & good at the same time.

I can't vouch for a specific rapper, because I don't know them personally, but I highly doubt they are all monsters, that's all I'm trying to get across.

It's hard to do all good though, as you know. I appreciated your link to that illegal download movie site in the movies section, but that guy was asking for LEGAL download sites (you know, where you pay instead of steal the movies). Some people don't think that downloading illegal movies is any better than shoplifting them from a store. You thug you. Sorry, couldn't resist

I agree that neither of us are going to change our minds, so, we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm sure there are other genres we both like that we can productively bullshit about, like the blues (I saw your BB King poster)! Your McIntosh gear is amazing also, I'm jealous.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I don't think all older people despise all rap.

No, but some of us do.

 

[highfihoney]

Rest assured, that were you physically capable, and a serving member I would definently take you outback and teach you some respect.

At this point its clear to me that your extremely worked up beyond reason(with me atleast),you might wanna kick back for a while,sip on a cold one & cool out,it took me a while in life but i finally learned that when harsh words or threats are exchanged,either one person walks away the looser or both loose due to escalation,ill be the 1st to say uncle in this case.

Anyhow have a great day,be safe & try to chill,if your overseas you've allready got enough to worry about instead of sweatin the little stuff like this.

No hard feelings on my end

 

[darien87]

True, I hate most of the current, mainstreet rap. But then again, I think most music I hear today is crap. Give me a good 'ol Keith Sweat, Guy, New Edition, Prince song over just about anything I hear on the radio today any day of the week.

When I talk about good rap, I'm talking about the type of music that was ground-breaking, (i.e. A Tribe Called Quest, Diggable Planets, De la Soul), had a political message, (i.e. Public Enemy, Queen Latifah, MC Lyte), or was fun, (Heavy D, Wrecks N' Effect). That's music to me. And not just music, but good music.

 

[cbraver]

When was the last time you heard two jazz guys shooting it out?

They were too busy tying off the dinosaur

 

[stratman]

They were too busy tying off the dinosaur

Heheheh, but I would apply that to the classical music guys doing a baton drive-by!