Is my amp worth fixing?

TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Well, I just called the service guy and he said that the amp basically looks great, but that the channel 3 fuse had blown. He thinks that my center channel speaker may be the culprit, which makes sense, because when I connected the center channel speaker to my receiver, the receiver kept going into protection mode and shutting off. So it looks like my speaker has a short and that's what blew the fuse on my amp. I have a multi-meter and the guy told me to check the impedance on the speaker by touching the probes to the speaker wires. I'll try that tonight.

He wants to take a look at the speaker. Hopefully that will also be an easy fix. So right now, I only owe the guy another $40 for cleaning up the amp and replacing the fuse. :D
That must be a good amp, commonly a power transistor or two goes out before the fuse blows!

I don't like the sound of the center channel speaker problem. That kind of problem is usually caused by over driving the speaker which causes the insulation to melt on the coils of the woofer, or woofers. This causes progressive shorting of the coil turns and falling impedance. This means driver re coning or replacement drivers. You might be lucky and have a shorting inductor, but I doubt it. You stated that before the center channel went down there was loss of volume. This is exactly what happens when you get voice coil breakdown.

If that is the problem, if you repair the speakers you will have to listen at lower levels, or get a center speaker with better power handling capacity.
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
That must be a good amp, commonly a power transistor or two goes out before the fuse blows!

I don't like the sound of the center channel speaker problem. That kind of problem is usually caused by over driving the speaker which causes the insulation to melt on the coils of the woofer, or woofers. This causes progressive shorting of the coil turns and falling impedance. This means driver re coning or replacement drivers. You might be lucky and have a shorting inductor, but I doubt it. You stated that before the center channel went down there was loss of volume. This is exactly what happens when you get voice coil breakdown.

If that is the problem, if you repair the speakers you will have to listen at lower levels, or get a center speaker with better power handling capacity.
Well that sucks. I don't see how I could have overdriven the center though. I hardly ever listen to my system at "reference" levels. I've only had the amp for about 6 months. But before that, I was using a Denon 2805 to run my system. I did briefly have my crossover set at 60Hz, but for the last 6 months or so, I've had the whole system crossed over at 80Hz, specifically because the center is rated down to 65Hz, but my rears are only rated to 80Hz, so I figured 60Hz was too low of a crossover point.

Do you know ballpark what it might cost to replace the drivers? If it's more than $100 or so, I might as well buy a new center channel speaker.

Thanks for all the help so far.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Well that sucks. I don't see how I could have overdriven the center though. I've only had the amp for about 6 months. But before that, I was using a Denon 2805 to run my system. I did briefly have my crossover set at 60Hz, but for the last 6 months or so, I've had the whole system crossed over at 80Hz, specifically because the center is rated down to 65Hz, but my rears are only rated to 80Hz, so I figured 60Hz was too low of a crossover point.

Do you know ballpark what it might cost to replace the drivers? If it's more than $100 or so, I might as well buy a new center channel speaker.

Thanks for all the help so far.
I have had one other thought. I'm sorry I don't think as fast on my feet as I used to. You have to have your tech do some further tests, and feel free to show him this communication. There may still be a problem with the amp.

Modern transistor amps are direct coupled. That is to say the power transistors are directly connected to the load. There is no output cap like in early transistor designs.

Now as power transistors fail they develop a DC offset voltage. This in an amp as powerful as yours could be close to 100 volts DC. This is presented to the woofers and is a voice coil fryer. Usually the fuse does not act fast enough to save the driver if the amp protection does not work.

Now obviously this really upsets people. Now when direct coupling came out in the mid seventies there was a rash of speaker fry ups. The Crown DC300 A was a particular offender. I lost a line source of eight expensive midrange drivers to a Crown 300 A in an installation in a large auditorium.

When all these speaker fry ups occurred protection circuits where developed.

These are DC sensing circuits. The commonest is a TRIAC and thyristor that makes a clamp circuit that shorts the speaker output under conditions of DC offset. This sacrifices the output transistors but they are usually done anyway. Other types rapidly cut the rail voltage, and there are circuits that disconnect the speakers.

Occasionally you still run into a rogue design that has no protection.

Now have your tech check that your amp has speaker protection and that it is working.

Now have him disconnect or by pass the circuit, and drive the amp hard into a large dummy load resistor. Have him continuously monitor the output for DC offset. If DC offset occurs he needs to do the appropriate repairs.

I have had cases where there was no speaker protection or were the protection was not functioning, and huge DC offsets occurred as the amp was progressively driven. This is a well known issue in solid state amp service, so your tech should understand.

I know this is technical but if you don't understand it all your tech should.

In my experience an amp line fuse never blows for no reason. The question as to whether the speaker or the amp primarily caused this failure has to be definitively answered, other wise you will likely be very unhappy.

Interestingly I have a friend who has just bought a new McIntosh 400 watt per channel amp. I was stunned to find it has output transformers! I suppose if the tube fanatics can't hear transformer hysteresis distortion the solid state owners won't either. There is no possibility of frying speakers from DC offset with this amp. They say they did it to perfectly match the amp to the loudspeaker impedance. Just like a tube amp! I think they just wanted to make sure they never had to buy a customer an expensive pair of speakers. It eats into the profits you know.

By the way I don't think I know what your speakers are. But if it comes to that your best bet is to contact Orange County speaker repair or the manufacturer.

http://www.speakerrepair.com/

Good luck and keep us posted.
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
Interestingly I have a friend who has just bought a new McIntosh 400 watt per channel amp. I was stunned to find it has output transformers! I suppose if the tube fanatics can't hear transformer hysteresis distortion the solid state owners won't either. There is no possibility of frying speakers from DC offset with this amp. They say they did it to perfectly match the amp to the loudspeaker impedance. Just like a tube amp! I think they just wanted to make sure they never had to buy a customer an expensive pair of speakers. It eats into the profits you know.
I always thought the same thing too,its a fantastic feature & one of the reasons i only use Mac amps.

On a side note most Mcintosh SS amplifiers use this design,of all the Mac SS amp models over the decades there are less than 10 (forgot actual number) that do not use Autoformers.
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
Yikes-a-hootie, that's a lot of info. I'll print this out and bring it to him when I pick up the amp and bring him the center channel on Saturday.

Thanks again.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Yikes-a-hootie, that's a lot of info. I'll print this out and bring it to him when I pick up the amp and bring him the center channel on Saturday.

Thanks again.

Yikes-a hootie! What part of the county has that one in it's vernacular?

Any way you are welcome.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I always thought the same thing too,its a fantastic feature & one of the reasons i only use Mac amps.

On a side note most Mcintosh SS amplifiers use this design,of all the Mac SS amp models over the decades there are less than 10 (forgot actual number) that do not use Autoformers.
Thanks for that info. I have only encountered Mac tube amps before. In fact I have one, given to me back in the late seventies. I have never used it. I'm always meaning to spiff it up and get it on eBay.

Well you won't have to worry about fried speakers from DC off set.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I guess I should have looked at your signature. I see your center speaker is a CSW 500. I have feeling that speaker has SEAS drivers from their prestige line. Harry Kloss was keen on them. If it is not a SEAS it likely is an offering from Peerless or VIFA. I would expect with those two drivers you would have to exceed over 160 watts to damage them. If there are one or two fried voice coils, I would say that amp needs another careful look along the lines I suggested.
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
Yikes-a hootie! What part of the county has that one in it's vernacular?

Any way you are welcome.
You know I don't know where I heard that. Probably from someone else, or in a movie. I seriously doubt it's a California thing.

Anyway, I called the shop today and mentioned the DC offset voltage thing, and the guy said that they had checked that. I didn't speak to the guy that actually worked on the amp though, as he was out. I'll call him back later and speak to him directly. But I've got the speaker in my car, so I'm gonna try and bring it to them today. I measured the impedance with my multimeter on the "200" setting and got a fluctuating reading of 1 down to .4!! :eek:

Hopefully, it won't be a big deal to fix the speaker.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
You know I don't know where I heard that. Probably from someone else, or in a movie. I seriously doubt it's a California thing.

Anyway, I called the shop today and mentioned the DC offset voltage thing, and the guy said that they had checked that. I didn't speak to the guy that actually worked on the amp though, as he was out. I'll call him back later and speak to him directly. But I've got the speaker in my car, so I'm gonna try and bring it to them today. I measured the impedance with my multimeter on the "200" setting and got a fluctuating reading of 1 down to .4!! :eek:

Hopefully, it won't be a big deal to fix the speaker.
Well you are making progress, I'm afraid those numbers are too low, and just the sort of numbers you get from fried shorting voice coils.

I just can't believe you played the rig loud enough to do that. When you have the speakers apart, if the voice coils are fried see if you can identify the manufacturer. I will do my best to try and identify those woofers. If they are quality woofers, then I don't buy that your amp is OK, unless you confess to being a lunatic as far as spls are concerned. If they are lousy woofers then don't fix the speaker

You have to be really obsessional about chasing DC off set. It can often take a while to appear. You sometimes have to drive the amp hard for a long period of time and heat up the power transistors for the offset to suddenly become apparent. In transistors faults often become apparent when things heat up.

Did you ask the tech if your amp has speaker protection from DC offset and that it is working? Really this issue can be settled very easily. Protection circuits are easily checked. If your amp has protection and it is working the amp did not do it. If the answer to either of those questions is no then the amp has to be regarded as suspect.

So if the amp is PROVED to be blameless and one or more of the woofer voice coils is fried, then its confession time. If you really think you were not pushing your amp to the limits, then I think you need a different center channel speaker. If you plead guilty, fix it if the cost is reasonable. Play your rig quieter, and save your hearing.
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
All right. I popped out one of the 6-1/2" woofers and it doesn't have a name on it. But the magnet has a number printed on it:

P13-1030
0011


Maybe the P stands for Peerless?

As for me frying my speaker, I just don't see how that's possible. I can only think of a couple of times when I was playing a concert DVD and turned it up pretty loud. But even then, it didn't seem excessive to me. Maybe I'm just going deaf. I did buy the speaker at a CSW outlet as a demo, so maybe it had been messed up before I even got it. Who knows.


Edit: I just spoke to the guy that worked on my amp and he said that it didn't have any other speaker protection, besides the fuse that blew. Apparently the Acurus has an extremely simple design.
 
Last edited:
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I popped out one of the 6-1/2" woofers and it doesn't have a name on it. But the magnet has a number printed on it:

P13-1030
0011

Maybe the P stands for Peerless?
Only a guess, but that sounds like it might be a Vifa number. P13 might mean 13 cm polypropylene cone. For example P13WH00.

Are you sure that's a 6.5" woofer? 13 cm is more like 5".

Vifa and Peerless are now owned by the same company, Tymphany, and they have dropped a lot of the old standard Vifa products. Who made your center channel speaker? Usually large speaker manufacturers buy their own lots of drivers from such companies. You may not find an exact replacement unless you contact them.
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
Only a guess, but that sounds like it might be a Vifa number. P13 might mean 13 cm polypropylene cone. For example P13WH00.

Are you sure that's a 6.5" woofer? 13 cm is more like 5".

Vifa and Peerless are now owned by the same company, Tymphany, and they have dropped a lot of the old standard Vifa products. Who made your center channel speaker? Usually large speaker manufacturers buy their own lots of drivers from such companies. You may not find an exact replacement unless you contact them.
The center is by Cambridge Soundworks. According to the CSW website, the woofers are 6.5"

http://www.cambridgesoundworks.com/store/category.cgi?category=search&item=c1mc50ce
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
All right. I popped out one of the 6-1/2" woofers and it doesn't have a name on it. But the magnet has a number printed on it:

P13-1030
0011


Maybe the P stands for Peerless?

As for me frying my speaker, I just don't see how that's possible. I can only think of a couple of times when I was playing a concert DVD and turned it up pretty loud. But even then, it didn't seem excessive to me. Maybe I'm just going deaf. I did buy the speaker at a CSW outlet as a demo, so maybe it had been messed up before I even got it. Who knows.

I have an extensive data base of drivers. I can't match that number. I have been through the model numbers of just about every manufacturer. It is not a VIFA classic, it does not look like one. Most of these were doped paper.

Edit: I just spoke to the guy that worked on my amp and he said that it didn't have any other speaker protection, besides the fuse that blew. Apparently the Acurus has an extremely simple design.
Oh dear! That is not good news. You just don't use amps that don't have speaker protection. To do so is inviting a blown speaker every time a power transistor fails. Line fuses just do not protect speakers from this event. I have doubted all along that your conditions of use damaged your speaker. My experience and intuition tell me that amplifier is likely guilty of the crime.

I would not use any solid state amp that did not have good speaker protection, that did not have either an output capacitor or an output transformer. At the power of your amp I very much doubt it has an output capacitor. If it, did the tech would not have tested it for DC off set Only Macs I think have transformers. Producing that amp like that was fraud, period.

I will file that amp for future reference and put it on the avoid do not use list.

Sorry to be blunt, but that is the best advice I can give. That amp belongs in the recycling center, it is a rogue design.
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
Well the plot thickens yet again.

I went to pick up the amp and let the guy take a look at the center channel. He tests it and what does it say????? 8 ohms!!! What the hell?!?!? I try it with my meter and what do I get???? 8 ohms!!! I don't know what went on last night, but now all of a sudden, the center seems to be fine.

So he tells me to go home and hook everything back up, without turning on the amp and test all the leads at the back of the amp. I do this and the center still says 8 ohms, but I notice that both fronts say 4 ohms!!!

I disconnect the fronts from the amp and test the backs of the speakers themselves. 4 ohms!!! But the label right on the back of the VR2's says "8 ohms". What the hell. Both the right and left front measure at 4 ohms. So now he wants to take a look at them to see what their problem is. This is driving me nuts!!!
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Well the plot thickens yet again.

I went to pick up the amp and let the guy take a look at the center channel. He tests it and what does it say????? 8 ohms!!! What the hell?!?!? I try it with my meter and what do I get???? 8 ohms!!! I don't know what went on last night, but now all of a sudden, the center seems to be fine.

So he tells me to go home and hook everything back up, without turning on the amp and test all the leads at the back of the amp. I do this and the center still says 8 ohms, but I notice that both fronts say 4 ohms!!!

I disconnect the fronts from the amp and test the backs of the speakers themselves. 4 ohms!!! But the label right on the back of the VR2's says "8 ohms". What the hell. Both the right and left front measure at 4 ohms. So now he wants to take a look at them to see what their problem is. This is driving me nuts!!!
First of all, how did you test the speaker, at the speaker or through the leads? It is starting to sound like the case of the electric whisker. I suspect you had a stray wire strand somewhere. That is the only explanation I can think of. Make sure your speaker terminations are really neat and tidy. You won't be the first or last to felled by the dreaded whiskers.

However the point remains, that you have an amp without speaker protection. That is a very risky situation, especially since your amp has a few years on it. My advice is to dump it or see if someone can make speaker output clamp circuits for it. If I liked the amp, I would make a clamp circuit for it.
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
First of all, how did you test the speaker, at the speaker or through the leads?
I just touched my meter probes to the + and - connection terminals on the backs of the speakers.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I just touched my meter probes to the + and - connection terminals on the backs of the speakers.
I should have been more specific, did you do this with no leads connected to the speakers?

If you did, then do this test. Get a 1.5 volt battery. Connect leads to the speaker. Then make and break the circuit with the battery. As you make and break contact to one battery terminal the woofer cones should pop in and out equally and in the same direction.

The reason I want you to do this is, it is I suppose conceivable that you had a shorting coil that has now gone open circuit, and you need to confirm that both woofers work. If the speakers and amp are OK, I have to conclude it was an electric whisker in your speaker connections, one end or the other.
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
I should have been more specific, did you do this with no leads connected to the speakers?
No, I disconnected the speaker wire and touched the probes to the speaker terminals themselves.
 
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