Impressed with Tubes!

[kitjv]

For the first time, I auditioned a pair of Paradigm Reference Studio 100s run through a Rogue Perseus tube preamp & a Rotel RB1080 S/S power amp. Prior to that, I have never auditioned a tube preamp. Wow! What a difference! A richer, more integrated sound with the Rogue Perseus compared to S/S alternatives. Now that I am hooked on tubes, a few quick questions:

(1) Would there be a significant difference if I went with a tube power amp as well?

(2) Compared to the Rogue Perseus, has anyone had any experience with the Rogue Metis preamp?

(3) In addition to the Rogue Perseus, are there other tube preamps that are recommended?

Thank you!!

 

[3db]

I've never heard tube pre or amps for that matter and I'm very curious about the sound myself. I've read lots from tube die hards but never had the chance to audition anything.

I don't know for sure but I'm under the impression that there are very few tube amps that can push difficult loads which I would classify your Paradigms as from a tube perspective. Most speakers mated to tube amps are very efficiient, and have impedances that are greater than 8 ohms. Thats just an impression I got from reading threads and by no means is to be construed as being accurate.

 

[fmw]

For the first time, I auditioned a pair of Paradigm Reference Studio 100s run through a Rogue Perseus tube preamp & a Rotel RB1080 S/S power amp. Prior to that, I have never auditioned a tube preamp. Wow! What a difference! A richer, more integrated sound with the Rogue Perseus compared to S/S alternatives. Now that I am hooked on tubes, a few quick questions:

(1) Would there be a significant difference if I went with a tube power amp as well?

(2) Compared to the Rogue Perseus, has anyone had any experience with the Rogue Metis preamp?

(3) In addition to the Rogue Perseus, are there other tube preamps that are recommended?

Thank you!!

1. Quite possibly. Most of the lower priced tube amps have rolled off high frequencies. It is akin to turning down the treble control on a preamplifier. Really good tube amps have similar specs and similar sound to solid state amps but are high in mainenance.

2. No experience here.

3. I wouldn't recommend any tube amp at all - ever. I've owned several even some of the finest ever made. They were all nonsense. Sorry.

 

[davidtwotrees]

3. I wouldn't recommend any tube amp at all - ever. I've owned several even some of the finest ever made. They were all nonsense. Sorry.

But what about the liquid midrange?!

 

[fmw]

But what about the liquid midrange?!

Sounds like something that would make the carpeting wet.

 

[mazersteven]

3. I wouldn't recommend any tube amp at all - ever. I've owned several even some of the finest ever made. They were all nonsense. Sorry.

So this is Nonsense?

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=40600.0

 

[3db]

Wow. That sure is a nice looking beast. I wonder what it sounds like?

 

[3db]

1. Quite possibly. Most of the lower priced tube amps have rolled off high frequencies. It is akin to turning down the treble control on a preamplifier. Really good tube amps have similar specs and similar sound to solid state amps but are high in mainenance.

2. No experience here.

3. I wouldn't recommend any tube amp at all - ever. I've owned several even some of the finest ever made. They were all nonsense. Sorry.

Why are they nonsense? Is it because of teh maintenance? What maintenance had to be done other than changing a tube?

 

[fmw]

So this is Nonsense?

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=40600.0

Yes. Complete nonsense just like my Stereophile Class A recommended Audio Research tube amp was nonsense. Sorry.

 

[fmw]

Why are they nonsense? Is it because of teh maintenance? What maintenance had to be done other than changing a tube?

What we strive for in an amplifier is transparency. We don't, or shouldn't, want an amplifier to add to or remove anything from the signal it amplifiies. It should result in the same waveforms at a higher amplitude. Since solid state amplifiers can do that with ease, paying more for a less reliable and more complex amplifier is to do it is pointless. If the tube amplifier has the same performance as a solid state unit it will still require tube testing and replacement. It will cost more and provide no benefit that the solid state equivalent wouldn't provide.

If it is not transparent, then it is bad because it is changing the shape of the waveforms from the original - something amplifiers shouldn't do.

Don't misunderstand. If you like rolled off high frequencies or boosted midrange, then by all means have them. But don't let the amplifier do that because you can't undo it. Use an equalizer or tone control to do that so that it is an adjustment rather than an integral part of the playback system.

and, again, don't misunderstand. If you like the tube unit and want it, then buy it. That's not a problem. We should buy what we like. Just don't buy it thinking you will have gained anything positive from it. There is no such thing as a tube unit that performs so well that a solid state unit can't match it. Actually, it is the other way around.

 

[fmw]

I will add one thing in defense of tubes and that is in the area of signal clipping. A tube amplifier clips progressively while a solid state one clips more "digitally." In other words the tubes will clip a signal more like a volume control while solid state will clip more like a power switch. This results in having more effective output power at an "acceptable" clipping level for tubes. The solid state solution for this is buying a more powerful amplifier.

 

[davidtwotrees]

we don't need no stinking clipping

I will add one thing in defense of tubes and that is in the area of signal clipping. .... The solid state solution for this is buying a more powerful amplifier.

I hear the term clipping alot here on Audioholics. I occassionally listen to my music loud.......just for short passages or a song that has caught my fancy...
(90's dbl....) I don't believe I've heard any clipping......on my old Mordaunt Shorts there was some distrotion......but on my Canton's the sound stays sharp and clean. I think my amplification is up to snuff...not military grade Krell stuff, but certainly hi mid fi.....so when would I hear clipping?

Also, JA from stereophile has long proclaimed that SS amplification is better than tubed......so he is not subjectivist all the time........

 

[kitjv]

Obviously I have unleashed a few pent-up opinions. My point in initiating this thread ---- I was really impressed with the sound of the Rogue tube preamp vs. the Rotel S/S amp.

This the difference inherent in tube vs. S/S???

 

[Adameus]

Being new to the HT world and having zero experience with tube stereo/ht pres & amps, I can't say much.

But... as a guitarist, no one who is serious would play anything BUT a tube guitar amp. S/S amps sound like poop in comparison.

I realize this isn't all that relevant, but I had to stick up for all the 6L6's and EL34's out there.

 

[B3Nut]

I don't think you're going to clip your Acurus amps playing in the 90's. If the sound stays clean and doesn't start to sound compressed, strained, or gritty, you're not clipping.

The celebrated "tube sound" is basically distortion, especially from single-ended amps with no feedback. This certainly adds "color" the audio, and is often subjectively pleasing, but it isn't hi-fi in the truest sense. You can use tube distortion to great effect when creating music (I do being a Hammond organ player and guitar player) but I don't want any distortion in the playback chain. I want the playback chain to reproduce the original recording as faithfully as possible, and tubes sometimes don't do this. And if a hi-fi tube amp is truly linear and has a low enough output impedance to make a woofer behave it usually winds up being indistinguishable from a good SS amp in an ABX double-blind test anyway, so you've wasted money (unless you want the amp for aesthetic or sentimental reasons, which are not invalid at all really, some of these units are gorgeously-crafted.)

There is a benefit to the softer clipping, but if you play your hi-fi at a level that causes regular clipping, you need a more powerful amplifier anyway, and good clean power is much cheaper on the SS side.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

 

[fmw]

I hear the term clipping alot here on Audioholics. I occassionally listen to my music loud.......just for short passages or a song that has caught my fancy...
(90's dbl....) I don't believe I've heard any clipping......on my old Mordaunt Shorts there was some distrotion......but on my Canton's the sound stays sharp and clean. I think my amplification is up to snuff...not military grade Krell stuff, but certainly hi mid fi.....so when would I hear clipping?

Also, JA from stereophile has long proclaimed that SS amplification is better than tubed......so he is not subjectivist all the time........

It is called clipping because, if you look at clipped waveforms on an oscilloscope, they will look like the tops of the waveforms were sliced off with scissors. If you are familiar with the sound of electric guitar "distortion" then you are familiar with the sound of clipping. That fuzzy, raspy distorted sound was created in the old days by driving the amplifier into clipping. They were 10 and 20 watt amps so it wasn't too hard to clip them. You aren't likely to hear anything quite that severe in a hi fi system simply because the amps are so powerful these days it is hard to drive them into clipping without making the playback uncomfortably loud.

So you aren't likely to hear clipping in your system at all. If you want to learn where your amp clips, borrow an O-scope and hook it up between the amp and speakers. Crank it up and, at some point, you will see the waveforms flatten out at the top. That's the clipping level. Wear hearing protectors.

Remember, recorded acoustic music at realistic levels in a normal listening room only requires a watt or so of average RMS power with up to 10 watts to handle the peaks. So a 100 wpc channel, contrary to popular opinion, is very powerful and, consequently, hard to clip without damaging your hearing in most home listening rooms.

I've always liked Atkinson but I've disliked his magazine since I was cured of wild audiophilia about 10 years ago. He's quite knowledgeable about audio. The high end audio industry wouldn't exist if it weren't for the subjectivism and beliefs of the participants and his magazine is right in the thick of it. He plays along in order to have a successful business but, personally, I'm pretty sure he knows better.

 

[fmw]

B3, I'm a pianist, not an organist, but not long ago I was at the Woodwind and Brasswind store and they had a Hammond XK3 setup complete with two manuals, pedal board and Leslie speaker. It was less than half the price of a full modern B3 but to me sounded about the same. I was REALLY interested in bringing one of those home but common sense got the better of me before I went crazy.

I can make organ sounds on my digital pianos and I'll stay content with that for the time being. I wonder if you have an opinion about the XK3?

 

[davidtwotrees]

This thread, and others like it, are why I come here.

As to the tube sound, you won't find many tube rollers here, for the above stated reasons......although I should say that the two audiophiles that got me going are both big tube heads......one had two old quad monoblocks running a pair of JBL Hartsfields with a Garrard 301 turntable and a Marantz 10B tuner.......the other guy had some Altec Voice of the Theatres driven with small antique tube amps. The "sound" was really appealing, and certainly got me interested in hi fi after a long abscense.

 

[Kpt_Krunch]

So this is Nonsense?

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=40600.0

You're damn right it is - it looks nice in a show - but where would you put that in your home?

 

[davidtwotrees]

You're damn right it is - it looks nice in a show - but where would you put that in your home?

Right between two Ferrari Blue Wilson Watt Puppies?