America's Unchallenged Youth...

J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
God or no god, I think the things that exist beyond our level of comprehension do so because maybe we're not meant to understand them. If we knew everything there is to know about the universe and everything in it, what would be the point of living?
I think it is because we aren't smart enough to comprehend them yet. (We haven't really been around all that long as a species, and our brains are not nearly as advanced as we would like to think they are.) As for knowing everything there is to know, I don't think there is much danger of that happening.:) In any event, there are plenty of things besides the search for knowledge to motivate life. (For example, I live to create art.)
 
K

Kevin T

Enthusiast
Nation of Underachievers--Why?

Whew!

I’ve tried to read through this entire thread before posting, so that I would not repeat what others have already written on the original topic. I hope someone out there is still interested.

Anyway, it seems to me that one way our society can improve how we prepare our youth to lead successful adult lives is to restore the early lessons in causality that used to play an important part of developing intellect and character.

For some reason I don’t understand, we seem to do everything in our power to prevent our young children from learning that effect follows cause. We “babyproof” our houses so that we can ignore our children and still nothing gets broken and nobody gets hurt. Later, we’re surprised when our children break Aunt Patsy’s antique vase during a visit to her home. How many parents then consider Aunt Patsy at least partly to blame for leaving the vase in a location where it can be broken by a child? After all, the problem couldn’t possibly be that the parent hasn’t taught the child how to behave, could it?

In other words, our children don't learn that there are consequences to their actions.

We raise holy hell when other adults speak to our children about their poor behavior. Was it really so bad back when neighbors used to help each other keep the neighborhood kids from misbehaving? I’m not suggesting that neighbors physically discipline other people’s kids, but it’s not going to hurt my kids if Mr. Jones down the street yells at them for throwing rocks at passing cars or lighting a fire in empty lot. “It takes a village to raise a child” may be the best part of the “Clinton legacy”. Too bad this concept wasn’t applied where it can be effective—in the neighborhood—but instead continues to be twisted to try to justify government’s involvement in every part of life.

Self esteem is something to be earned. Where did we get the idea that it’s not OK for kids to feel disappointed or ashamed of their own misdeeds or failure to put forth effort? If a child doesn’t bother attending class or studying, why is it a bad thing to issue a failing grade? Instead we make excuses for the child and pass along the problem to the next teacher to try to fix. Since the child hasn’t learned the causal relationship between lack of effort and failure, how can the kid be expected to do better next time? At this point it’s no longer only the child’s (and the parents’) fault when the pattern is repeated. The system that rewards negative behavior or lack of achievement has to share the blame.

Where did we get the idea that all teenagers need to be crammed in to a college prep curriculum, even though many (most?) are not academically inclined? Many potentially brilliant technicians and trades-persons (Man, do I hate this gender-neutral crap) are hindered from reaching their potential because of our over-emphasis on providing exactly the same college prep education to all students, regardless of their aptitude. When we pass Junior on through our college prep curriculum and he goes on to drop out of college, what have we gained? If all Junior wanted to do was tinker with his dad’s power tools, maybe we missed an opportunity to help develop a master mechanic. In the meantime, the kids who do have the potential for academic excellence aren’t challenged to attain all that they could, since the curriculum has to be “dumbed down” to the point where everyone who shows up with a pulse has a decent chance of graduating—even those who have failed to put forth an honest effort for the previous ten or twelve years.

Before anyone protests that only college graduates have the potential to make a good living, let me point out that trades people can make a very, very good living in this country. An electrician, plumber, tile layer, etc. is likely to make far more, I believe, than the bottom third of your average college class is likely to make as assistant managers at Wendy's or WalMart.

Can someone please explain the high level of emphasis we place on competitive sports in our schools? I’m not saying that athletics and physical fitness aren’t important, but could sports programs not be managed as community activities, as they are in most of the rest of the world? How can we expect our young people to pursue academic excellence if the only kids reaping social rewards in school are the athletically gifted?

Someone early on this thread mentioned the delusion many kids have about not needing an education because they are going to be professional athletes (doubtless pronounced with three syllables). Maybe if our kids observed tangible rewards given to students when they did well academically, pursuing academic excellence would not seem so pointless. Think about it, when was the last time you heard of a kid getting laid because he aced a final exam?

Okay, I’m not seriously suggesting that sex should be used as an inducement to encourage academic achievement. Hopefully, you’ll get my point that there’s a fundamental problem with a system where very small rewards are offered for achievements in the academic realm, while the larger rewards are reserved for the students who play a game well.

Sorry to go on so long...
Kevin
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
Hey Kevin,

I agree with 99% of what you posted, as for millionaire trades people? Miami abounds with them, specially after the building/real estate boom, I know electricians, plumbers, drywall guys, etc that started with nothing and are now extremely wealthy, none of these guys went to college, most learned through apprentice/trade route. These guys have always pushed their kids to college so they wouldn't have to change toilets, work in hot cramped attics, work around high voltage, see most parent's idea of their children's future is one of comfort and high salaries, they want their child to have a better life than they. My friends who are wealthy, but come from a "blue-collar" background don't want their kids in their field, I've asked several times why and the only answer I get is: " I don't want my kid working in construction sites, cutting up their hands, putting their limbs at risk." Now remember these guys are owner/operators, have money, but deem their social position as low, thus they want they kids to be viewed differently.

As for the "It Takes A Village" concept, that's not what Hillary had in mind.

People wouldn't dare scold another's child for one reason: litigation. Don't forget in our society it seems that you can be sued for sneezing in a restaurant, casing "mental duress," and several other categories that any two-bit lawyer can come up with.
 
K

Kevin T

Enthusiast
When You're Right, You're Right

As for the "It Takes A Village" concept, that's not what Hillary had in mind.
LOL. You're right about that. I didn't want to get sidetracked too much by partisan politics. I hope that both of our pathetic, self-serving political parties can agree that something must be done about the problem under discussion, and that society (not necessarily government) has a role in influencing a person's development.

People wouldn't dare scold another's child for one reason: litigation. Don't forget in our society it seems that you can be sued for sneezing in a restaurant, casing "mental duress," and several other categories that any two-bit lawyer can come up with.
Don't get me started on our legal system. I don't have time for another lengthy rant. :D


Kevin
 
aberkowitz

aberkowitz

Audioholic Field Marshall
Hey Kevin,

My friends who are wealthy, but come from a "blue-collar" background don't want their kids in their field, I've asked several times why and the only answer I get is: " I don't want my kid working in construction sites, cutting up their hands, putting their limbs at risk." Now remember these guys are owner/operators, have money, but deem their social position as low, thus they want they kids to be viewed differently.

/QUOTE]

I've heard this myself from the same type of folks. It's kinda sad that a multi-millionaire plumber is trained to feel that their social position is low in life. These guys run successful businesses better than many CEOs of Fortune 500 companies.
 
J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
Well, that is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. I do actually share your thoughts on the matter of religion more or less, but I say to each their own. I wouldn't want someone in my face telling me that what I believe is wrong, so why should I do it to anyone else?
Very good Halon. An atheist (agnostic?) that spits it back.

Belief is faith-based. Those that do not have it...we pray for them. And pray for them again when they repeatedly indulge in telling us the error of our ways.

I was just waiting for this to be written by a nonbeliever. As entitled as anyone is to regurgitate this very old argument, they are not justified in so doing. What gives them the right?

By the way, for all the nonbelievers (and naysayers) in Christ, please feel free to work a double shift on December 25th.
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
Hi Kevin, and welcome to the "How we can change the world" power thread this monster has turned into. :D I had to thank you in your post for going to such a length to share your thoughts with us, and I believe you're dead on about much of what you stated.

How can we challenge a nation of youth to succeed if they don't know the difference between success and failure?

So yes, it appears that we are all still very interested in this topic - we've tried to kill it once, but it sprang back to life and here we are. ;)

Johnd - am I an atheist or agnostic? Truth be told I don't consider myself either, because either of the two are as absolute as Christians believe God to be. I don't want to veer off course again and down this lengthy road of examining theology and the "where we all came from" topic, but I believe what I believe and for this thread it's not very relevant. :)

On the topic of whether or not a college degree will guarantee success. Absolutely not. Does this mean that if you don't have a degree that you will end up working in attics, or wiring houses, fixing plumbing, etc? Absolutely not. People are accountable to their own decisions, and should be allowed to pursue whatever goal they set for themselves. Not everyone can earn a degree, and sit in a cubicle from 9 to 5. There are those who prefer to work with their hands, and get out there and do what some like to call "real" work.

And if we all had degrees and a "management" job, who would come fix our pipes when they broke? We have to understand that 100% of the population will not succeed in the same way. That we need people from all walks of life, and yes - to do the dirty work. I think that a number of factors dictate where one will fall on this spectrum, many of which may be beyond their control.

But...

What is at stake is that the system seems to have become severely unbalanced. Back to our youth - are we to survive as a society if ALL we have are 90% fry cooks, 3% engineers, 3% business managers, 2% top level executives, 1% doctors, and 1% lawyers? I'm throwing this out there arbitrarily of course, as there are a zillion worthwhile professions in the world.

My point earlier was that if a man can make it through life, look back on it and know that he did what he could within his own boundaries, no matter the trade, no matter the profession, no matter the ending salary - he is successful. Or she... of course, of course. :)
 
pzaur

pzaur

Audioholic Samurai
Now that I've vented some frustration from earlier opinions, I'll get back to the topic at hand - America's Unchallenged Youth.

This thread has taken so many twists and turns that it's hard to reconcile what has been stated, agreed with, disagreed with and so forth...so forgive me if I repeat what has already been said.

I don't believe for one moment that America's youth are unchallenged. The challenge is there. It's more that very few, and I mean very few, individuals are stepping up to the plate to accept the challenge. Too many students seem to have the attitude of entitlement to everything. There's no sense of satisfaction for many students when they earn something because they're so used to it being handed to them on a silver platter. The pride isn't there.

Unfortunately, the students who do step up to the plate are often ridiculed by the masses. As was stated earlier, they are the one's who we are truly failing in the public system. There's too much emphasis on the lower spectrum of "Special Education" and not the upper. It's also not "cool" to be smart and overachieving in academics in our society. It is cool to be dumb and athletically gifted. How many professional athletes would have gone to a university if it weren't for sports. And of those professional athletes that attended because of sports, how many actually earned a degree or stayed long enough to even consider earning a degree?

No Child Left Behind is a joke and a large culprit for not challenging youth. It's a massive dumbing down of the system. The goal of the legislation was that every child will achieve a certain level at each age group. Well, how is this going to happen? The standards keep getting lowered until everyone passes.

When the bar is raised to the appropriate level, the first one's to complain are going to be the individuals who don't want to work to earn it. If it takes effort, they don't want it. Complain loud enough and someone's going to make a change so you shut up. I have never seen the bar raised for a test (standardized test), always lowered. It's the easiest way to improve test scores. Just change the way it's scored. Not the test.

I wonder what the grading scale for all of us was in elementary school or later. I distinctly remember a grading scale that was similar to this: A=100-93 B=92-88 C=87-82 and so forth. A very tough scale. I've talked with coworkers and parents about using a scale like this and they always balk at it. It'll hurt the child's esteem or "It's too hard."
My ideal scale would involve only four grades: A, B, C & F
Why pass someone who's underachieving? Oh yeah, it'll hurt their self-esteem if they aren't passed.

Sorry for the lack of continuity between thoughts...

-pat
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
By the way, for all the nonbelievers (and naysayers) in Christ, please feel free to work a double shift on December 25th.
Nice try. Nobody messes with my pagan winter solstice holiday (even if it was renamed after some emperor became christian.):)
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
Belief is faith-based. Those that do not have it...we pray for them. And pray for them again when they repeatedly indulge in telling us the error of our ways.
Pray for those who, like you, imagine it doing some good. Otherwise you are just wasting your time even more than usual. (Not to mention that being prayed for is both annoying and insulting.:()
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Hey Kevin,

My friends who are wealthy, but come from a "blue-collar" background don't want their kids in their field, I've asked several times why and the only answer I get is: " I don't want my kid working in construction sites, cutting up their hands, putting their limbs at risk." Now remember these guys are owner/operators, have money, but deem their social position as low, thus they want they kids to be viewed differently.

/QUOTE]

I've heard this myself from the same type of folks. It's kinda sad that a multi-millionaire plumber is trained to feel that their social position is low in life. These guys run successful businesses better than many CEOs of Fortune 500 companies.
I think it's odd that I have yet to meet any workers that have a low view of themselves nevermind company owners. Possibly my kind over compensates to cover up low self esteem but I don't think so.

It just occured to me what the problem might be. Society in general might have a low view of us. The guys who made good money in this industry wouldn't want their kids being looked down on. Personally I don't have a problem with my kids doing what I do so long as they get paid well and have a decent benefits package. One 20 year old kid told me that when his friends graduate college that they will be $100,000 in debt and he was going to have that amount saved. Another guy at work had a degree in plastic engineering but did drywall because the money was better than he could get with the degree. Don't get me wrong, plenty of us are degenerates of one kind or another but that has nothing to do with how we view ourselves in relation to the industry we work in. Most of us think we're rather smart. :D LOL!
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
How can you tell when you're being prayed for? Does it trip some sort of spidey-sense?
I meant when they tell me that they are praying for me. (Otherwise it has precisely no effect whatsoever on me or on anything else, just like all prayer.)
 
K

Kevin T

Enthusiast
Better PR Needed for Trades

I think it's odd that I have yet to meet any workers that have a low view of themselves nevermind company owners. Possibly my kind over compensates to cover up low self esteem but I don't think so.

It just occured to me what the problem might be. Society in general might have a low view of us. The guys who made good money in this industry wouldn't want their kids being looked down on. Personally I don't have a problem with my kids doing what I do so long as they get paid well and have a decent benefits package. One 20 year old kid told me that when his friends graduate college that they will be $100,000 in debt and he was going to have that amount saved. Another guy at work had a degree in plastic engineering but did drywall because the money was better than he could get with the degree. Don't get me wrong, plenty of us are degenerates of one kind or another but that has nothing to do with how we view ourselves in relation to the industry we work in. Most of us think we're rather smart. :D LOL!
Alex,

If you're speaking specifically about drywall workers, let me say that you guys have a tough gig. There's not only tricky work involved where manual dexterity is key and attention to detail is critical, but there's also heavy manual labor involved. I tip my hat to all who master your craft. Good luck to you in your career.

I have no problem with master craftsmen in the trades making as much as a mid-level lawyer or doctor. Maybe not some hot shot neurosurgeon with triple figure malpractice insurance premiums, but people in the trades certainly should be paid well for doing excellent work.

I think this is pertinent to the thread topic because as many have observed, so many see careers like this as undesirable. Finding a way to combat that attitude would help solve the problem. I say this because I feel that many young people, beginning in middle school or so, will recognize that they are not interested in or good at academics, yet they can see that the entire educational system is set up to propel them toward a college education. At least in the schools I've been to, the vocational programs were seen as some sort of refuge for inferior people. This couldn't be more wrong-headed, and I imagine it's part of the reason why some students don't even try those courses, even if they could be the key to a better, more successful life for them.

If we do a better job of celebrating the accomplishments of those students who excel in vocational courses, perhaps the trades would eventually have less of a stigma--if that's not too strong a word.

Not too long ago, students in the computer lab were ridiculed for their geekiness. Maybe they still are, but I'll bet this is less an issue less than when my generation was in school (I'm 48). Now I wish I my rural school had had a computer. Perhaps I might have gotten into the computer field first, instead of taking a twenty year detour, leaving me with a mid-life career change.

Oh, and for what it's worth, my Dad was an amazingly skilled machinist. He pushed me neither toward nor away from any particular career, but he did tell me when I was in elementary school that if I wanted to go to college I'd better earn a scholarship, because he had no intention to pay for it.

Guess what. At the end of my high school days I was offered two full scholarships. Too bad I was to lazy and too busy partying to do well during that initial college experience.

The point to all this is that my Dad found a way to motivate me to do well through high school--too bad nobody made me understand that college would require some actual effort. :eek:

Merry Christmas, all who celebrate it, and for those otherwise inclined, Merry Yule!
 
Last edited:
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Alex,

If you're speaking specifically about drywall workers, let me say that you guys have a tough gig. There's not only tricky work involved where manual dexterity is key and attention to detail is critical, but there's also heavy manual labor involved. I tip my hat to all who master your craft. Good luck to you in your career. Merry Christmas, all who celebrate it, and for those otherwise inclined, Merry Yule!
Thanks and please let me clear up a couple of things. I'm really a union carpenter and I work for union drywall companies in Boston because that is where they have the most work and the pay scale is the highest. Drywall itself requires the least amount of brain matter out of all the different jobs on a commercial job and attention to detail is a hinderance not a help. We're "rough". Tapers make our work look good. Wait a minute, taping is more brainless than drywall. The guys who are the best at it are usually around 5'9" tall and weigh around 170lbs, so being Mr. Atlas is no good. There are always exceptions. A "master" according to a company is a guy who cuts every corner known to man. I like turning over a nice product but will do what an employer tells me. Insulation and acoustical caulk get skipped a lot. My previous post was regarding tradesmen in general.

God bless you and yours,
Alex:)
 
K

Kevin T

Enthusiast
Thanks and please let me clear up a couple of things. I'm really a union carpenter and I work for union drywall companies in Boston because that is where they have the most work and the pay scale is the highest. Drywall itself requires the least amount of brain matter out of all the different jobs on a commercial job and attention to detail is a hinderance not a help. We're "rough". Tapers make our work look good. Wait a minute, taping is more brainless than drywall. The guys who are the best at it are usually around 5'9" tall and weigh around 170lbs, so being Mr. Atlas is no good. There are always exceptions. A "master" according to a company is a guy who cuts every corner known to man. I like turning over a nice product but will do what an employer tells me. Insulation and acoustical caulk get skipped a lot. My previous post was regarding tradesmen in general.

God bless you and yours,
Alex:)
Ha! That shows how much I know about it. I wasn't aware there was a distinction between installers of drywall and tapers.

As for companies encouraging their workers to produce substandard work--that's a shame. One reason some people resent the high fees charged by some trades is because they've had experience with bad workmanship or unethical practices. That's just my totally unscientific opinion--ymmv.
 
J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
Pray for those who, like you, imagine it doing some good. Otherwise you are just wasting your time even more than usual. (Not to mention that being prayed for is both annoying and insulting.:()
I pray for those too who are so easily insulted, offended and annoyed. May they find inner peace rather than superficial angst.
 
J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
Nice try. Nobody messes with my pagan winter solstice holiday (even if it was renamed after some emperor became christian.):)
Nice try. Winter solstice is tomorrow. So party (rejoice?) tomorrow, and put in your double shift on "Tuesday."
 
J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
How can you tell when you're being prayed for? Does it trip some sort of spidey-sense?
Good one markw.

To not believe is one thing. It is quite another to reject God, and verbally condemn all those who do have faith. This message has been sent several times...some will never learn.

Schmoe: you write of disrespect and explain it as a feeling. You simply do not know. And then, just a couple of days before the celebration of Christ's birth you verbally direspect all those who follow. Hmmpphhh. What to say to those that already know everything, and therefore refuse to listen to anyone? Silence.
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top