America's Unchallenged Youth...

[stratman]

Remember the tough gangs of 50's and 60's, they were not known as gun toters, when I was high school age you never heard in the news kids bringing guns to school, for someone to bring a pocket knife to school was considered a big deal, and tattoos (which I have nothing against, on adults is fine) were not for kids, neither were piercings or mutilations, hard core foul language was really heard amongst small groups but not the majority. I'm afraid social mores have changed, thank the media for making the unacceptable, cool and hip.

 

[Halon451]

We may just have to agree to disagree on this one Halon, but let me make one more argument for you.

Well, we may just have to, to an extent - but this is the kind of debate that can bring out some really good points from both sides, so I welcome it.

Think about all of some advances that were made between 1900 and 1950- Airplanes, radios, televisions, proliferation of the telephone, computers, nuclear weapons, penicillin.... couldn't you have made the same argument back in 1950? In fact, you could make the argument (not that I'm trying to) that this 50 year period was even more of a radical shift than 1950-2000. Therefore, kids coming of age in the 50s were brought into a world just as small if not smaller relative to kids today.

We are talking about a very exponential rate of increase in these advances, much of which has taken place only in the last ten to fifteen years. Just about the time our generation started having babies, which are the kids we have now. The fundamentals have been lost in the mix. By this I mean, we have lost the ability to discover what makes us human, and have lost the ability to discover the power of our own intellect before technology has its way with us. Combine that with the ever-increasing trend of lowering education standards, and kids have no reason, will or motivation to develop either mentally or culturally.

No he wasn't, but he nearly got banned from TV for shaking his hips. Think about that, the Ed Sullivan show felt that shaking hips were so indecent that they had to shoot him from the torso up. By 2007 standards shaking hips is considered G rated, but in the 50s parents believed that their kids were going to hell because they listened to and danced to the music. From a relative standpoint, is that so much different than singing about banging ho's?

Um, yes I think that it is, very much so. Maybe in Elvis's time it was implicit, rather than explicit, but it clearly shows how degraded we've become from a moral standpoint. We've evolved out of the "fear of hell" mentality, but have adopted a "to hell we go happily" mentality in its place.

My views on this have been shaped my Vietnam veterans who's viewpoints I've been exposed to through my brother's political endeavors- ask somebody who grew up during that time period and fought in Vietnam what their take on the 1950s was- a period during which they grew up in a very insulated environment and were then exposed to war overseas. As a military guy yourself I'm sure you may have had these conversations already. What I took away was very interesting- many of them felt totally sideswiped by what was going on, not just because of the horrors of fighting, but because they really had no idea what it meant to have an "enemy" and once they started fighting didn't really see why they were fighting.

Why do you think they felt that way, or that we as Americans felt the way we did during the Vietnam conflict as opposed to WWII? It's not like anything changed between then and Vietnam with respect to warfare and the horrors it contains, other than we were more unified as a country, and we believed that in order to protect our way of life, we had to fight for it. Vietnam changed everything. Suddenly America was the bad guy. We continue to beat ourselves up over Iraq in the same exact fashion, and while I don't agree with all aspects of our current conflict, I do need to stress the importance of standing behind our decisions as a country, and focusing toward a common goal.

I'm not speaking badly of the war here or of these men, but much of what they believe they knew about the world was instantly shattered based upon these experiences. I believe that we're in a better time now where we have the ability to expose our children to the realities of the world (as it is age appropriate) so they can be better informed.

I couldn't agree more. Isolation is only a recipe for future failure, but it has to take place at the right time in life, and under the right circumstances.

I'm not saying that any of this is "right", but I just think that as we get older (myself included) we like to glorify our time as youths as the "wonder years". Is society getting worse? Maybe... but I think it's very hard to compare across generations, let alone multiple generations because we don't have the right perspective. Ask me in 100 years and I may change my mind.

I think the problem we face now, spans several generations, and the message my original post contained was one directed at the end result of a long, winding road into oblivion - our children, our kids. Maybe we would need very complex algorithms to dissect the many generations of successes and failures to figure out how we've ended up where we are today, but I would never say the problem started only ten or fifteen years ago.

Oh, and if we're both around 100 years from now, then I suppose we've at least done something right!

 

[markw]

I graduated High School in 1967.

I do remember having to wear a tie and a jacket or sweater to school.

I don't remember seeing my classmates with baggy pants that hung half-way down their butt and t-shirts with nasty sayings on them.

I do remember that some tough guys would "borrow" a car for a joy-ride and drop it off a few blocks away, unharmed save for a bit of missing gas.

I don't remember anyone stealing cars, driving like nuts and either engaging in a police chase, which eventually ended up with a destroyed car, or selling it to a chop shop.

I do remember expressing displeasure with a teachers decisions in a civilized manner, but they still won.

I don't remember anyone ever striking a teacher.

I do remember that when I was sent to the principals office and mom was called, I was worried about what would happen when I got home.

I don't remember Mom coming and yelling at the principal and blaming everyone else for her precious boy's trouble, except themselves.

I do remember when a preganant student was a rarity. Nowadays, it's the norm and many are not on their first one, either.

and I could go on and on and on...

Yes, things have changed and not for the better or in a linear fashion. The magnitude of evil has increased exponentially.

 

[Halon451]

Remember the tough gangs of 50's and 60's, they were not known as gun toters, when I was high school age you never heard in the news kids bringing guns to school, for someone to bring a pocket knife to school was considered a big deal, and tattoos (which I have nothing against, on adults is fine) were not for kids, neither were piercings or mutilations, hard core foul language was really heard amongst small groups but not the majority. I'm afraid social mores have changed, thank the media for making the unacceptable, cool and hip.

Nah, my old man grew up in the 50's. They were called "rumbles" back then, not gang wars. I graduated high school in '92, and even then if someone got caught bringing a knife into school it was a huge deal. There were no metal detectors at the doors, and you didn't have to worry about getting shot when you stepped off the bus. And strat - you hit the nail on the head - the media, Hollywood, and pop culture in general have followed the same format since the advent of entertainment - it has always promoted the very things that kids find appealing with rebellion, but the problem is that it kept following this format right into the current status quo - which isn't mere rebellion anymore, it is scary, sinister and dangerous.

 

[aberkowitz]

I do remember when a preganant student was a rarity. Nowadays, it's the norm and many are not on their first one, either.

Yes, things have changed and not for the better or in a linear fashion. The magnitude of evil has increased exponentially.

You may want to check your facts on this one.... the teen pregnancy rate actually peaked in 1990 and has been falling steadily ever since. In fact, the pregnancy rate among girls 15-17 today is about 30% lower than it was in 1972, and among all women under 20 it's 20% lower.

Some interesting stats on teen sexual behavior today (from 2006) http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_ATSRH.html

This type of stuff goes back to my point that we all like to believe that things are worse today than they've ever been and that our years were the golden years.

 

[aberkowitz]

I'm afraid social mores have changed, thank the media for making the unacceptable, cool and hip.

Of course social mores have changed, just like they changed when we repealed prohibition, allowed women and minorities to vote, lowered the voting age, decriminalized abortion, got rid of the draft, and states started to vote for the legalization of marijuana. Not all changes are good, but social mores will always change as society evolves. When social mores don't change you end up with a society living in the past (e.g. Russia prior to the fall of Communism). We're not always going to agree with the direction of society, but that doesn't mean we've deteriorated as a country.

 

[stratman]

Of course social mores have changed, just like they changed when we repealed prohibition, allowed women and minorities to vote, lowered the voting age, decriminalized abortion, got rid of the draft, and states started to vote for the legalization of marijuana. Not all changes are good, but social mores will always change as society evolves. When social mores don't change you end up with a society living in the past (e.g. Russia prior to the fall of Communism). We're not always going to agree with the direction of society, but that doesn't mean we've deteriorated as a country.

I understand, but there is ample evidence that our younger population has become more violent and sociopathic as compared to earlier generations, the crimes perpetrated by the youth of today are more violent than in generations past, respect for elders has also gone the way of the dinosaur. I give you Japan as an example, violent gang crime over there was rare compared to the US, elders were revered, authority figures and institutions were respected, as Japan has become westernized crime rates amongst the youth has exploded to the extent that Japan now has gang activity units, something that was unheard 20-30 years ago. Where will we be in another 20-40 years?

 

[Halon451]

Of course social mores have changed, just like they changed when we repealed prohibition, allowed women and minorities to vote, lowered the voting age, decriminalized abortion, got rid of the draft, and states started to vote for the legalization of marijuana. Not all changes are good, but social mores will always change as society evolves. When social mores don't change you end up with a society living in the past (e.g. Russia prior to the fall of Communism). We're not always going to agree with the direction of society, but that doesn't mean we've deteriorated as a country.

I don't think it's fair to compare our society with Russia in its communist period. The reason they lived in the past was because they had no incentive to bring about the future - which is the ultimate reason why communism and socialism does not work. This was of no consequence to holding on to whatever values they had in that society, it was simply economics and governmental control.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Remember the tough gangs of 50's and 60's, they were not known as gun toters, when I was high school age you never heard in the news kids bringing guns to school, for someone to bring a pocket knife to school was considered a big deal.

Yeah. There was a knife fight in my junior high once. It made the papers and was talked about for weeks. Now, since it didn't involve guns, it would barely be mentioned.

 

[aberkowitz]

I don't think it's fair to compare our society with Russia in its communist period. The reason they lived in the past was because they had no incentive to bring about the future - which is the ultimate reason why communism and socialism does not work. This was of no consequence to holding on to whatever values they had in that society, it was simply economics and governmental control.

I know it's not a very good example, but it was the best I could do in a rush on my way out the door to a meeting. Not all of us get extra bonuses to spend on subs b/c we spend all day on the site Halon .

 

[Halon451]

I know it's not a very good example, but it was the best I could do in a rush on my way out the door to a meeting. Not all of us get extra bonuses to spend on subs b/c we spend all day on the site Halon .

No comment.

 

[markw]

I was speaking from personal observation, not a web site.

You may want to check your facts on this one.... the teen pregnancy rate actually peaked in 1990 and has been falling steadily ever since. In fact, the pregnancy rate among girls 15-17 today is about 30% lower than it was in 1972, and among all women under 20 it's 20% lower.

Well., considering that today, 70% of births are from single mothers, I don't think that says too much about the moral fibre of the current crop of breeding stock which extends back to the late 70's.

Considering, of course that having graduated in 67, my generation's breeding days are long gone. It's your (and subsequent generations) creating that 70% figure.

Some interesting stats on teen sexual behavior today (from 2006) http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_ATSRH.html

And this is supposed to comfort me? If anything it strengthens my point that there's something drastically wrong, and it's not getting better.

This type of stuff goes back to my point that we all like to believe that things are worse today than they've ever been and that our years were the golden years.

no, it's not our imagination. It's our society.

But, in spite of all that's wrong with the current school system, I find it odd that certain minorities (and a few non-minorities) can still learn enough to excel in school and move on to higher education and a fruitful life.

Of course, a lot depends on the parents involvement in their kid's education.

IOW, some of us boomers dropped the ball when we raised our kids by making it too easy for them who, in turn, are making it even easier for our grandkids to fail. ...and it started with us, the boomers, whose parents wanted us to have an easier life than they did, and they spoiled a lot (not all) of us, too.

 

[Halon451]

Almost as if by fate or pure coincidence - I just received this email, that is apparently starting to make the rounds.

Anyone please read this, and whether it is true or not - you cannot tell me that there is a signficant problem with youth and that it is starting to border on insanity. Not that email existed back "in the day", but you can safely bet the proverbial farm that you wouldn't have seen something like this come across your desk 40 years ago...

We have all heard about gang violence in the Greensboro area, and it seems that violence is getting worse in the Triad.
The most recent news that is circulating is-----

MS 13 Gang Members are initiating new members at this time.
They are going around to people at random asking for directions to a specific shopping center, mall, or restaurant. When the person begins to give them directions they shoot them right there on the spot for no reason. Please be mindful and cautious during the holiday season and always!
They are of Hispanic decent and normally wear yellow, but not always. If someone approaches you for directions, be cautious-not sure if that is a gang initiation procedure or not.

 

[avaserfi]

Almost as if by fate or pure coincidence - I just received this email, that is apparently starting to make the rounds.

Anyone please read this, and whether it is true or not - you cannot tell me that there is a signficant problem with youth and that it is starting to border on insanity. Not that email existed back "in the day", but you can safely bet the proverbial farm that you wouldn't have seen something like this come across your desk 40 years ago...

We have all heard about gang violence in the Greensboro area, and it seems that violence is getting worse in the Triad.
The most recent news that is circulating is-----

MS 13 Gang Members are initiating new members at this time.
They are going around to people at random asking for directions to a specific shopping center, mall, or restaurant. When the person begins to give them directions they shoot them right there on the spot for no reason. Please be mindful and cautious during the holiday season and always!
They are of Hispanic decent and normally wear yellow, but not always. If someone approaches you for directions, be cautious-not sure if that is a gang initiation procedure or not.

For the record it is important to note that most chain mail that does circulate like this is not true and is generally started by one person and happens to carry on.

Hell, yesterday I got chain mail warning about a computer virus that was an epidemic last Christmas. So I wouldn't take too much faith in that.

I did a quick google search on the situation and didn't see anything as well.

 

[aberkowitz]

Well., considering that today, 70% of births are from single mothers, I don't think that says too much about the moral fibre of the current crop of breeding stock which extends back to the late 70's.

Considering, of course that having graduated in 67, my generation's breeding days are long gone. It's your (and subsequent generations) creating that 70% figure.

First of all, where does that figure come from? Second, you're lumping wanted and unwanted pregnancies together incorrectly. In the United States it has become socially acceptable for a single woman to become pregnant out of wedlock- so I would be careful before you take the 30-something year old woman who's not married and wants a baby with the 15 year old crack-whore who gets knocked up on the streets of Newark. Do you question the moral fiber of a woman who wants to raise a baby on her own?

Btw- did you read the statistics that I posted. They stated that while teens do have sex (and I'm sure teens in your days had sex too) they are actually getting more responsible about it and more are using contraception. Kids are going to have sex no matter what, and I'm not an abstinence only fan, so as long as they are being taught to use protection and are using it then that is what is most important.

But, in spite of all that's wrong with the current school system, I find it odd that certain minorities (and a few non-minorities) can still learn enough to excel in school and move on to higher education and a fruitful life.

Of course, a lot depends on the parents involvement in their kid's education.

Why do you find that odd?? Minorities in this country were able to succeed when they weren't allowed in the same schools and were explicitly held back by society. There are more opportunities now for minorities than ever- it's about taking them at the right time. And to that, I will agree with one of your points- it all starts with parents... whether its a traditional family or not.

 

[Halon451]

For the record it is important to note that most chain mail that does circulate like this is not true and is generally started by one person and happens to carry on.

Hell, yesterday I got chain mail warning about a computer virus that was an epidemic last Christmas. So I wouldn't take too much faith in that.

I did a quick google search on the situation and didn't see anything as well.

Yep - agreed, which is why I put the disclaimer in there that I didn't know if it was true. It just happened to come in at the same time I found myself immersed in this discussion.

However, with that said - MS13 has been very well documented and is a steadily growing menace within our society, so even if this one particular story isn't true, this is typically the kind of mindless violence you see from this gang. Their initiation rites are well known for being both savage and completely random.

They are targeting the very kids we have spoken of in this thread, for induction into their mad, sick world, and are a lot closer to the 'burbs' than one may think.

Yeah, I think we've come quite a ways from Elvis's shaking hips...

 

[aberkowitz]

Halon- that sounds a bit like the "gang initiation story" on Snopes where they'd drive around with the car lights off and the first person to flash their lights would get killed. I don't doubt that MS 13 is dangerous, but that definitely seems like an urban legend.

 

[TLS Guy]

First of all, where does that figure come from? Second, you're lumping wanted and unwanted pregnancies together incorrectly. In the United States it has become socially acceptable for a single woman to become pregnant out of wedlock- so I would be careful before you take the 30-something year old woman who's not married and wants a baby with the 15 year old crack-whore who gets knocked up on the streets of Newark. Do you question the moral fiber of a woman who wants to raise a baby on her own?

Btw- did you read the statistics that I posted. They stated that while teens do have sex (and I'm sure teens in your days had sex too) they are actually getting more responsible about it and more are using contraception. Kids are going to have sex no matter what, and I'm not an abstinence only fan, so as long as they are being taught to use protection and are using it then that is what is most important.



Why do you find that odd?? Minorities in this country were able to succeed when they weren't allowed in the same schools and were explicitly held back by society. There are more opportunities now for minorities than ever- it's about taking them at the right time. And to that, I will agree with one of your points- it all starts with parents... whether its a traditional family or not.

[/Quote] Do you question the moral fiber of a woman who wants to raise a baby on her own?

I thought I would not get involved with this thread again. But my answer to that question is hell yes!

I remember being in Dr Stimmler's pediatric clinic in South London over forty years ago on my pediatric rotation. A dolled up thirty something single woman came in with a baby. She had planned this. I remember Dr Stimmler talking to us at length about this after the mother left. I remember him saying that men are going to become unnecessary except as a source of sperm. He went on to elaborate on all the social ills this mentality was going to reap. He was on the money and just about everything has happened.

I'm not proud of having come of age in the sixties. The silly sixties I call them. I was unfortunately a member of one of, and may be the worst generations the world ever saw. I was out of synch with it then, and I still am.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Well., considering that today, 70% of births are from single mothers, I don't think that says too much about the moral fibre of the current crop of breeding stock which extends back to the late 70's.

I don't consider sex to be a moral issue at all. I say buy plenty of condoms and go for it. Unprotected sex is the issue, and the thing that leads to major problems.

 

[markw]

First of all, where does that figure come from? Second, you're lumping wanted and unwanted pregnancies together incorrectly.

Actually, that's an incorrect figure. It should be 40% for the population as a whole. That 70% is for one minority group.

In the United States it has become socially acceptable for a single woman to become pregnant out of wedlock- so I would be careful before you take the 30-something year old woman who's not married and wants a baby with the 15 year old crack-whore who gets knocked up on the streets of Newark. Do you question the moral fiber of a woman who wants to raise a baby on her own?

The fact that is "socially acceptable" for a woman to conceive and raise a baby on her own is proof that the morak fibre has declined. It's been proven that a child thrives better in a family with the traditional mother/father structure than one in a single family environment.

Btw- did you read the statistics that I posted. They stated that while teens do have sex (and I'm sure teens in your days had sex too) they are actually getting more responsible about it and more are using contraception. Kids are going to have sex no matter what, and I'm not an abstinence only fan, so as long as they are being taught to use protection and are using it then that is what is most important.

We bought and condoms and, yes, they worked quite well. A few took their chances but, on the whole, they didn't getburned too often. You had the advantage of the pill, free clinics, sex education in schools, free condoms on demand and, although I disagree with them, abortions.

Why do you find that odd?? Minorities in this country were able to succeed when they weren't allowed in the same schools and were explicitly held back by society. There are more opportunities now for minorities than ever- it's about taking them at the right time. And to that, I will agree with one of your points- it all starts with parents... whether its a traditional family or not.

What I find odd is that the ones complaining the most are the ones doing the least to solve the problem. The minorities (and a few non-minorities) I'm referring to tend to just quietly go on their merry way and excel, with the help of supportive parents and teachers. Teachers work best when kids want to learn and it's up to the parents to instill that desire in them.

I tend to think that most who post here are more likely to do a better job with our kids than society in general but, like it or not, the dregs are going to drag us down, just like those expanding balls did to Mr. Incredible.

and, those dregs are getting more and more numerous every day.