America's Unchallenged Youth...

[Johnd]

And still it continues...

Then a little friendly advice is to tune it out.

This thread has not veered off the op's first post. Read it carefully, dissect it, and then digest it (it's really not that complicated or convoluted, I'm just feeling verbose at the moment).

Some have agreed with highfi. Others have disagreed, in all, or in part. People ought to be able to disagree civilly without the useless fodder from the peanut gallery.

This thread has not turned it into ad hominems and hate mongering on each other here, though some hate mongering of entire classes of people has been expelled.

If this aint your cup of tea, stick with your holiday bonus thread. (Congrats by the way for an apparent job well done).

 

[Halon451]

Johnd - congratulations on figuring out a way to break into my brain and somehow know the intent of my own thread better than I do. Well done. In case you happened to not notice, I am the OP. And you're bringing up hifi - I'm not even sure you realize what thread you're posting on.

Either way - I feel that this thread burned itself out a while back, and that most of the original points were discussed enough that we ended up beating a dead horse. There were very many terrific points brought to the table, but what started as frustration at our nation's lazy, apathetic and dumbed-down youth has turned into a debate over religion and politics.

Check again which thread you're on, please.

 

[Johnd]

Johnd - congratulations on figuring out a way to break into my brain and somehow know the intent of my own thread better than I do. Well done. In case you happened to not notice, I am the OP. And you're bringing up hifi - I'm not even sure you realize what thread you're posting on.

Either way - I feel that this thread burned itself out a while back, and that most of the original points were discussed enough that we ended up beating a dead horse. There were very many terrific points brought to the table, but what started as frustration at our nation's lazy, apathetic and dumbed-down youth has turned into a debate over religion and politics.

Check again which thread you're on, please.

Nevermind.

 

[markw]

just to fan the flames...

1) Blame the Teacher - If some kids are having problems learning the subject matter, it's obviously the teachers fault and she should make it easier.

2) Social Promotion - Many parents feel that their little Johnny should be promoted just because he attend class, well, at least most of the time.

3) Depending on the school to teach the kids things their parents should have taught them in the first place.

But, as long as they pass the state mandated testing I guess all is fine.

fire away...

 

[Tomorrow]

Here's an interesting stat. I read in the Oregonian newspaper this week that 1 in every 10 high schools in the U.S. has a 40% OR GREATER dropout rate! On whom should we blame this failure of institution/individuals?! And better yet, how can the trend be stopped and turned around?

I personally am very distressed about our society (western society generally, not just the U.S.) and am very pessimistic about our prospects.

 

[pzaur]

They also get a big pay increase, once the obtain their masters degree.

Please, tell me how $2,000 is a big pay increase. That's all I get when I receive my Master's Degree. $35,000 to $37,000. That's after 2 years spent earning it. Yes, there are measly cost-of-living increases each year and a salary adjustment for years worked. That usually works out to $200 to $300 more each fiscal year.

Also, anyone who's been to college knows 'summer classes' are a cake walk, due to the shortened semester; and the 'professional courtesy the professor extends to the teacher, taking summer courses.

Tell that to my wife who had 10+page essays due each week for summer. These classes are not cakewalks. "Professional courtesy" the professor extends the teacher?! I'm insulted by that statement.

As for my neighbor's work day, it starts at seven, and he's home before three.

Great for him. I get home and then start about 2 hours of prep for the next day at my house.

Once a teacher receives tenure, it's almost impossible to fire them for
non-performance. The most that can be hoped for is a suspension "with pay."

Teachers can always be fired. There is a process that has to be done. Most school districts just don't want to go through with it. I bet that the teachers that should be fired are completely burnt out from dealing with snotty, bratty children and parents who feel that they shouldn't have to work for the grade.

When teachers are asked to contribute one or two percent Co-pay towards their medical, the union will threaten a strike. My neighbor's (teacher) benefit package is phenomenal, it beats what I had in the private sector by miles.
My neighbor is a very honest guy, and confides in me that he thinks a teacher's aide in every class is a waste of money. It does create another dues paying union member though.

You better believe I'm gonna complain when you take more money out of my pocket! Are you saying that you'd like your child's teacher to be on welfare? Me and my wife pinch pennies so that nothing is wasted. Most teachers retire better than the rest of Americans because we do just that and then invest wisely. If your company doesn't pay into a retirement fund for you, as the employee, how are they treating you? It's almost as if a company is saying that when you're too old to work or past your prime that you're on your own. We don't care about you because you're no longer working for "the man".

If you think a teacher's package is phenomenal, then maybe you should take a look at your congressman's package. How many votes has congressperson attended? How many actual days where they at the Senate floor or House floor?

More than 50% of teachers will quit teaching within the first 5 years. Pay increases are done based on years at a school district and education attained.

As for Aides being a waste in the classroom. What a crock of s---! If your neighbor thinks that, then they have no clue how to use an aide!

Here's a question for everyone - Would you balk at the idea of doing a year round school year with a break in between quarters of one or two weeks or less? The summer break isn't needed. Very few people farm the land compared to what it used to be. The farm-hands aren't needed for harvest season.

You want your kids to learn more. Get rid of the summer break and start teaching your child before they get to kindergarten.

BTW - If I charged every parent $2/hour to watch their child, for a "school day" for 180 days, I'd be earning $86,400.

30 kids x $2/hour/child x 8 hours/day x 180 = $86,400
Your cost at $2/hour = $2,880
Teachers pay per child per hour = $0.41 This includes prep time at work to teach your child and a paid 30 minute lunch which is supposed to be spent by without kids. Usually, we're watching children for lunch detention for misbehavior. ($35,000/year)

Here's what I'd earn if I charged a "baby-sitter" rate of $10/hour

30 kids x $10/hour/child x 8 hours/day x 180 = $432,000
Your cost at $10/hour = $14,400

Still think a teacher is "over-payed"? I earn dramatically less than a babysitter for the number of children I'm in charge of. And, to top it of, I teach them and don't sit them in front of a TV.
Those numbers are for a "typical" classroom of 30.

-pat
relatively new teacher of 7 years. In those 7 years, I've seen a huge shift in what I used to be teaching...haven't changed schools.

 

[Johnd]

Tell that to my wife who had 10+page essays due each week for summer. These classes are not cakewalks. "Professional courtesy" the professor extends the teacher?! I'm insulted by that statement.

He clearly coesn't know what he's talking about pzaur, unless he's writing of some insignificant community college without accreditation. Years ago I took some easy "cakewalk" summer courses. Physics, calculus, and theater (as a breather). Yeah, real cakewalk. 16 weeks of stuff packed into 8.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

No matter. A man (or woman or child) can successfully live by the golden rule if they have proper ethics and guidance (by say, some higher being).

Except, of course, that no "higher being" exists.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

He clearly coesn't know what he's talking about pzaur, unless he's writing of some insignificant community college without accreditation. Years ago I took some easy "cakewalk" summer courses. Physics, calculus, and theater (as a breather). Yeah, real cakewalk. 16 weeks of stuff packed into 8.

I taught a summer Calculus course once. It was both the most difficult class I have taught and the most difficult for the students. It was a huge amount of material to cover in a very short time (not to mention the classes were 2 1/2 hours each!)

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Let me chime in here a bit. I agree whole heartedly with the very first post. I am 42 and back in school and I see EXACTLY what he was saying everyday. Americas youth has become more stupid and in a fairly short period of time. No it does not apply to all kids, and not in all areas of the country, but it is scary to see these kids in the workplace everywhere you go. I have met some sharp kids at school, but they are outnumbered by the stupid ones. In my anatomy & physiology class we started out with 32 students and ended up with 12. Only two dropped because of legit reasons and the rest was because they could not handle the class. Granted it is one of the hardest classes, but that it a huge failure rate.

Not only have they become more stupid, but they have to be the foulest, and most lacking in class and manners of any generation thus far.

 

[Halon451]

Let me chime in here a bit. I agree whole heartedly with the very first post. I am 42 and back in school and I see EXACTLY what he was saying everyday. Americas youth has become more stupid and in a fairly short period of time. No it does not apply to all kids, and not in all areas of the country, but it is scary to see these kids in the workplace everywhere you go. I have met some sharp kids at school, but they are outnumbered by the stupid ones. In my anatomy & physiology class we started out with 32 students and ended up with 12. Only two dropped because of legit reasons and the rest was because they could not handle the class. Granted it is one of the hardest classes, but that it a huge failure rate.

Not only have they become more stupid, but they have to be the foulest, and most lacking in class and manners of any generation thus far.

This represents the future, my friend. Thanks for your reply for your thoughts. I fear that it will get far worse before it gets better. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or even 15 pages of debate to recognize a very alarming trend in our society.

Hell, I guess most people just don't care because they figure they'll be dead and gone long before the nation is handed over to our enemies, because we've become too inept to even defend ourselves properly. I wonder where we would be if our founding fathers had adopted the same mentality.

Has anyone seen the movie "Idiocracy"? It is hugely satire, and was made by Mike Judge. It's wildly exaggerated of course, and overall not a very good flick, but I can only wonder if this is where we're headed... It just may prove to be prophetic in the long run.

 

[davo]

Not only have they become more stupid, but they have to be the foulest, and most lacking in class and manners of any generation thus far.

Just wait until they have their own kids. Now that's something to be scared of.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Has anyone seen the movie "Idiocracy"? It is hugely satire, and was made by Mike Judge. It's wildly exaggerated of course, and overall not a very good flick, but I can only wonder if this is where we're headed... It just may prove to be prophetic in the long run.

Yes, terrible movie but somehow rings of truth.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Not only have they become more stupid, but they have to be the foulest, and most lacking in class and manners of any generation thus far.

That, to me, is at least as big of an issue as the lack of education. Approach any group of high schoolers (or even middle schoolers) these days, and it sounds like you are approaching a poker game between drunken sailors. Far too many teens are driving like maniacs with a cell phone in one hand and rap blasting. Everywhere, I see them covered in piercings and tattoos, and with a surly look that just dares you to challenge them.

 

[Rickster71]

Please, tell me how $2,000 is a big pay increase. That's all I get when I receive my Master's Degree. $35,000 to $37,000.

180 days a year is the definition of a 'part time job', $35k - $37k sounds about right for part time.
It also looks like you're not factoring in your copious benefits package.

BTW - If I charged every parent $2/hour to watch their child, for a "school day" for 180 days, I'd be earning $86,400.

30 kids x $2/hour/child x 8 hours/day x 180 = $86,400
Your cost at $2/hour = $2,880
Here's what I'd earn if I charged a "baby-sitter" rate of $10/hour

30 kids x $10/hour/child x 8 hours/day x 180 = $432,000
Your cost at $10/hour = $14,400
I earn dramatically less than a babysitter for the number of children I'm in charge of.
-pat

Sounds like you should open a day care center.

It baffles me, when I hear people complain about their chosen professions.
As if they didn't know anything about them, going in; Or were forced to do so.
If it's so bad, why stay?
Ironic, isn't it? Maybe it's not all that bad. IMHO

 

[aberkowitz]

Far too many teens are driving like maniacs with a cell phone in one hand and rap blasting. Everywhere, I see them covered in piercings and tattoos, and with a surly look that just dares you to challenge them.

But is that so much different from how teens have always been? I mean think back to teen behavior over the past few decades comparative to the adults of the time, and haven't adults always thought teens were reckless and immature?

1950s- The "devil" music of Elvis, drag racing, alcohol, any sort of pre-marital intercourse
1960s/70s- Rock and Roll, Woodstock, long hair, heavy drug use, sex & free love, "hippie" clothing
1990s/2000s- Skimpy clothing, piercings, tattoos, grunge music followed by rap music, freak dancing, sex (sex always comes into play doesn't it!)

Interestingly the only one I had trouble with was the 1980s. Being born in 1979 myself I was too young to really understand what crazy things teens did in the 80s (aside from sex and drugs of course), and John Landis movies really don't provide much accurate guidance!

That teen attitude has always existed- the best thing about being a teenager is that you know everything and everybody else knows sh$t- and that's never going to change. Fashion and music changes, but teens have always had sex, done drugs/drank alcohol, and lived to impress the opposite sex. I think it's a bit unfair to judge an entire generation by their actions as teenagers, a mistake that adults have made for oh so many years now. Let's see what happens when they grow up.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

180 days a year is the definition of a 'part time job', $35k - $37k sounds about right for part time.

I have a Master's, work full-time, and make less than $29k. That places me in the top 10% at the company where I work.

 

[aberkowitz]

In my anatomy & physiology class we started out with 32 students and ended up with 12. Only two dropped because of legit reasons and the rest was because they could not handle the class. Granted it is one of the hardest classes, but that it a huge failure rate.

Not sure where you're going to school (and many kudos to you for going back at 42- best of luck!!) but when I went to college there were always those classes in each major that were used to weed people out. As an economics/political science major I never had the misfortune of taking hardcore science classes, but I had always heard that classes like Organic Chemistry, Thermodynamics (for engineers), 2nd level Optics, and Anatomy were generally those classes that separated out people who could cut it versus those who couldn't. With things being so competitive these days, isn't it better to drop out of a class where you may get a C or a D in a field that you obviously cannot survive in so you can concentrate on another area and not destroy your transcript?

 

[Halon451]

But is that so much different from how teens have always been? I mean think back to teen behavior over the past few decades comparative to the adults of the time, and haven't adults always thought teens were reckless and immature?

1950s- The "devil" music of Elvis, drag racing, alcohol, any sort of pre-marital intercourse
1960s/70s- Rock and Roll, Woodstock, long hair, heavy drug use, sex & free love, "hippie" clothing
1990s/2000s- Skimpy clothing, piercings, tattoos, grunge music followed by rap music, freak dancing, sex (sex always comes into play doesn't it!)

I think that once again, it's back to the "youth hasn't changed in a hundred years" way of thinking, when in fact it most certainly has. Sorry Aberkowitz, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one.

There are so many reasons I can state that support this. Let's talk about the decline in standards that the adult generation has helped to perpetuate. Elvis wasn't singing about shooting people in the face or chopping their limbs off, and banging ten ho's a night. Music has always played a significant role in the development of a teen's attitude towards life, and you did indicate correctly throughout the different decades how this manifested itself into the culture of each succeeding generation of youth.

Kids these days are brought into a world that is much, much smaller than it was back in the 50's. With the internet, TV, cell phones - they see everything, both the good, and the bad. Parents are utilizing these methods in place of proper parenting, so the kids have much less guidance and a healthy support structure with which to exist in the realm of their own natural rebellion.

Kids have always tried to buck the system at one point in their life. It happens at about that age when they start to self-actualize, and start to feel the world around them. They want to announce themselves to the world on their own terms, not their parents, not their teachers. They are naturally going to do so in a manner that directly reflects the way they've been raised since infancy. It's impossible to avoid exposing children to the harmful things in society, but we can only do our best to prepare them to make the right choices when they are. Sitting them down in front of the TV and exposing them to even more madness is not, on no uncertain terms, going to do it.

Lastly, it all comes down to how much dignity a person is willing to sacrifice to blend in with the crowd and not be considered an outcast. As we all know, acceptance amongst teens and youth is of the highest importance. This is a slippery slope we're on, as a society. And we (as a society) continue to oil the surface.

I'm not that old, and I'm not that young anymore, and I like to think that I'm not just turning into an old crotchety fart with an attitude towards "kids these days". I think this is a REAL problem, and that the issue we face now is not one of mere teen rebellion, it is one of extreme concern, because I can see the seams of our society coming undone on a much higher level.

 

[aberkowitz]

We may just have to agree to disagree on this one Halon, but let me make one more argument for you.

You're obviously looking at the issue by comparing what is out there today versus what things looked like 10-30 or 40 years ago. However, I think you're ignoring the fact that the world was much different in 1950 vs. 1900 or 1910, and that if you asked a 50 year old person in the 50s how they thought of the world, they would have many of the exact same comments you made.

Kids these days are brought into a world that is much, much smaller than it was back in the 50's.

Think about all of some advances that were made between 1900 and 1950- Airplanes, radios, televisions, proliferation of the telephone, computers, nuclear weapons, penicillin.... couldn't you have made the same argument back in 1950? In fact, you could make the argument (not that I'm trying to) that this 50 year period was even more of a radical shift than 1950-2000. Therefore, kids coming of age in the 50s were brought into a world just as small if not smaller relative to kids today.

Elvis wasn't singing about shooting people in the face or chopping their limbs off, and banging ten ho's a night. Music has always played a significant role in the development of a teen's attitude towards life, and you did indicate correctly throughout the different decades how this manifested itself into the culture of each succeeding generation of youth.

No he wasn't, but he nearly got banned from TV for shaking his hips. Think about that, the Ed Sullivan show felt that shaking hips were so indecent that they had to shoot him from the torso up. By 2007 standards shaking hips is considered G rated, but in the 50s parents believed that their kids were going to hell because they listened to and danced to the music. From a relative standpoint, is that so much different than singing about banging ho's?

It's impossible to avoid exposing children to the harmful things in society, but we can only do our best to prepare them to make the right choices when they are. Sitting them down in front of the TV and exposing them to even more madness is not, on no uncertain terms, going to do it.

That's an interesting point, and I agree with the part about using TV as a proxy (which by the way has been done since the 50s and 60s), but I have a differing viewpoint on the exposure to the world. My views on this have been shaped my Vietnam veterans who's viewpoints I've been exposed to through my brother's political endeavors- ask somebody who grew up during that time period and fought in Vietnam what their take on the 1950s was- a period during which they grew up in a very insulated environment and were then exposed to war overseas. As a military guy yourself I'm sure you may have had these conversations already. What I took away was very interesting- many of them felt totally sideswiped by what was going on, not just because of the horrors of fighting, but because they really had no idea what it meant to have an "enemy" and once they started fighting didn't really see why they were fighting. I'm not speaking badly of the war here or of these men, but much of what they believe they knew about the world was instantly shattered based upon these experiences. I believe that we're in a better time now where we have the ability to expose our children to the realities of the world (as it is age appropriate) so they can be better informed.

Lastly, it all comes down to how much dignity a person is willing to sacrifice to blend in with the crowd and not be considered an outcast. As we all know, acceptance amongst teens and youth is of the highest importance. This is a slippery slope we're on, as a society. And we (as a society) continue to oil the surface.

Again, I think this is relative. Remember, what was considered giving up dignity in the 1950s may have been just as awful as it is today when you look at things relatively, not absolutely. A girl asking a guy out on a date used to make her "easy" and whorish, we've just evolved.

I'm not saying that any of this is "right", but I just think that as we get older (myself included) we like to glorify our time as youths as the "wonder years". Is society getting worse? Maybe... but I think it's very hard to compare across generations, let alone multiple generations because we don't have the right perspective. Ask me in 100 years and I may change my mind.