America's Unchallenged Youth...

[Joe Schmoe]

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying. Please help me understand.

I am saying that ethical judgement exists outside the context of religion, and should be developed as a natural skill. Too often, I have seen religion used as an excuse for acts that would be reprehensible to anyone who had such an innate sense of ethics. The worst part is that those who commit such acts genuinely feel that they are doing the right thing!

 

[avaserfi]

Are you really getting all the facts?

I am saying that ethical judgement exists outside the context of religion, and should be developed as a natural skill. Too often, I have seen religion used as an excuse for acts that would be reprehensible to anyone who had such an innate sense of ethics. The worst part is that those who commit such acts genuinely feel that they are doing the right thing!

While I agree with you that ethical judgment should exist outside religion itself using religion, in part, as a guide might not be a bad thing for many (I am an atheist for the record).

Another thing that must be realized is that American media portrayal generally focuses on negative events rather than the good. Because of this people are often made aware of terrible things that happen in the name of religion while rarely being informed about the good. In the end it is far more likely that religion does more good than harm in current times it just happens that we don't find out about the good as often.

People can and always will find something to blame atrocities upon religion just happens to be an easy scapegoat simply because of its nature.

 

[Halon451]

Well I certainly can't disagree with that. Religion has sparked tons of violence throughout history, and you can safely bet that those involved thought they were doing so in the name of a holy entity. I'll avoid the obvious 9/11 reference (omitted here...)

Maybe TLS Guy is right... this thread has just about lost sight of its original purpose, and we're nitpicking over religion and politics, both of which I wanted to avoid in the first place and for this very reason; there's nothing to gain from it other than personal satisfaction at stating our various points of view.

It's been a good run though. And TLS Guy - I just added my thanks to your last post.

EDIT: Avaserfi, well said man. It is the nature of media to focus on the negative aspects of every culture - it's what makes headlines. Hopefully Joe will be able to recognize that religion as a whole - despite it's often troubled history - is generally recognized as a powerful motivating force in humans, and more often compels them to do the right things, rather than the harmful. And I hope he realizes we are not at war right now just because God said so...

 

[Alamar]

What do you think would help that? I agree with you, but I fear that the biggest problem isn't that people are not aware of these values, and the precarious balance between personal freedom and responsibility, it's just that they just don't care anymore. Apathy is what is going to destroy us, not ignorance.

I'm not proposing anything that WILL help with that. The bad thing about personal freedom / personal responsiblity / etc. is that many people won't take these things seriously until "disaster strikes". Also these is no way that I can MAKE people care because making people do anything cuts against this philosphy anyway .....

We may literally have to run into the proverbial brick wall before we realize what actually went wrong. Then we just have to hope that we can pick up the pieces from there.

 

[Halon451]

I couldn't agree more. Nothing unifies people like disaster. It's unfortunate that it takes something awful to happen for people to truly realize what is important in life. I wasn't dogging you by the way, I did enjoy reading your post, I was just curious as to what your thoughts were.

 

[Johnd]

anyone who had such an innate sense of ethics

Interesting concept.

I am just pondering if it could even exist outside of familial, social, religious and cultural interactions and training. Nope. Guess not.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Interesting concept.

I am just pondering if it could even exist outside of familial, social, religious and cultural interactions and training. Nope. Guess not.

Yes, it can and should. It is self-evident that murder, rape, theft, vandalism, torture, etc. are inherently wrong and should not be tolerated. Religion is not required to see this (and religion itself can be evil when it encourages people to act in such ways.)

 

[stratman]

Thie thread is merging with the "Another Savage" thread.

 

[Halon451]

Thie thread is merging with the "Another Savage" thread.

Yep. There's no reeling this one back in at this point.

 

[aberkowitz]

Yep. There's no reeling this one back in at this point.

There's a reason why I've excused myself from the savage thread.

Stratman- you need to start another post on food.... should we discuss Chinese food this time??

 

[stratman]

There's a reason why I've excused myself from the savage thread.

Stratman- you need to start another post on food.... should we discuss Chinese food this time??

Ironically we have one of the best Chinese restaurants in the US here in sunny Miami, can you believe that? Tropical Chinese off Bird Road accross from Tropical Park, ususally in the top 5.

 

[Halon451]

Man, I think all the top threads are now disintegrating from their original posts.. We should just form a "Free-for-all" thread and have one great big incoherant, babbling stew of nonsense!

 

[Johnd]

Yes, it can and should. It is self-evident that murder, rape, theft, vandalism, torture, etc. are inherently wrong and should not be tolerated. Religion is not required to see this (and religion itself can be evil when it encourages people to act in such ways.)

Joe: I'm not trying to rip on you, but when you use such terms, be prepared for an evaluation of them.

From a purely logical standpoint, nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing is "self-evident." This is philosophy 101. Sure, that colorful term sounds good for patriotism, and perhaps a jingle or two.

"We hold...that all men are created equal." (Per the Declaration of Independence). Were this true, we would not have many of the problems that exist today.

Innate means inborn. A newborn has innate feelings of hunger, but not ethics. These things are learned, and relearned over time.

Using such powerful words is an invitation to criticism, and has effectively made those two entire statements of your's untrue. Just a little food for thought.

 

[Halon451]

And still it continues...

 

[Joe Schmoe]

We should just form a "Free-for-all" thread and have one great big incoherant, babbling stew of nonsense!

Why bother? That is what they all become eventually, anyhow.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Innate means inborn. A newborn has innate feelings of hunger, but not ethics. These things are learned, and relearned over time.

I disagree. I think that we are born with a much more developed concience than you are giving us credit for. Of course it must be reinforced, but this can be done with examples taken from reality, not ridiculous fantasies like heaven, hell, God, Satan, angels, miracles, Jesus as something more than a great man, "prayer works", reincarnation, karma, etc., etc. ad nauseum.
Really, all that is needed as a basis for ethics is the "golden rule". This is something that everyone can understand and relate to.

 

[Johnd]

Really, all that is needed as a basis for ethics is the "golden rule". This is something that everyone can understand and relate to.

Really???

Following that logic, the Muslim fundamentalists are well within their rights, are they not? That is, they are treating others as they would be treated (were they to break sharia).

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Really???

Following that logic, the Muslim fundamentalists are well within their rights, are they not? That is, they are treating others as they would be treated (were they to break sharia).

This assumes that they would want to be murdered?

 

[Johnd]

This assumes that they would want to be murdered?

Yes. Or at least they deserve death if they disobey sharia. They are correct in their minds as they are strictly following sharia and [extremist] fundamentalist Islam. By your logic, they are following the golden rule, and they are justified in their acts.

I guess the golden rule is not as universal as some would like. Hmmph.

No matter. A man (or woman or child) can successfully live by the golden rule if they have proper ethics and guidance (by say, some higher being).

 

[niget2002]

I haven't read all 11 pages, so I don't know if I'm repeating someone...

In my college career, I had a number of friends that were here on student visa's. After getting a bachelor's I went on to get a job. They stayed to go for their Masters... Their reason for staying was not to learn more, but simply because they didn't want to go back to their country.

I also think that the schools on the coasts tend to have more diverse students then some of the more centrally located schools simply due to logistics.