America's Unchallenged Youth...

[Pheaton]

Keep in mind that pay is for working only 180 days a year!
That is the length of the school year here in NJ anyway.
Getting a job with summers off is very attractive to a person about to graduate college. They are not victims, they know the deal going in, and bank on the fact the teachers union will keep care of them, once tenured. (and the union does, 65% of my property taxes go towards schools)

My neighbor is a school teacher and makes $45k here in NJ.
Keeping in mind, everything in NJ costs more than most other states.
He just bought two pieces of property in South Carolina. One is 3 acres lake front, and the other is 5 acres.

The dream has turned into a nightmare.....the tax payers.

Yes the school year is 180 school days, but how many hours does your neighbor work on those 180 days and on all of the weekends during the school year? I don't know about NJ but in Michigan teachers are required to earn addtitional college credits to keep their teaching certificate active. Most teachers do this during the summer months at their own expense. I think we need to be careful about making a comparision between a teacher work day and another professionals work day as some sort of justification for lower teacher pay.

Exactly how does the teachers union take care of tenured teachers? I am confused by what you are trying to say here.

Am I a victim? Nope. I understood what it took to be a good teacher going in. Am I poor because I have chosen to become a teacher? Nope. But if the premise is that the education system is flawed and there is a direct correlation to the problems of today's younger generation and changes need to be made to improve the teaching profession, then low pay compared with similar professions is not the answer. Just my opinion of course.

Pheaton

 

[Alex2507]

My dad bought me my first Crossman pellet rifle, my first Ruger .22, he taught me how to use it and the responsibility that went with it, when Mikey is old enough I still have my pellet rifle and .22 and like my dad before me I'll teach him marksmanship, safety and most important respect.

One correlation I do find disturbing is the incidence of violent teens and parental divorce, a statisic that has quadrupled in the last 100 years.

My dad bought me a Daisy BB Gun when I was 10. I shot out the window on his Ford LTD with it. I don't own any fire arms now.

 

[Rickster71]

Yes the school year is 180 school days, but how many hours does your neighbor work on those 180 days and on all of the weekends during the school year? I don't know about NJ but in Michigan teachers are required to earn additional college credits to keep their teaching certificate active.Pheaton

They also get a big pay increase, once the obtain their masters degree.
Many, professions, i.e. CPA's and electricians, pay for their own mandatory and continuing education to maintain their licenses. (at night, or on week ends - no summers off)
Also, anyone who's been to college knows 'summer classes' are a cake walk, due to the shortened semester; and the 'professional courtesy the professor extends to the teacher, taking summer courses.
As for my neighbor's work day, it starts at seven, and he's home before three.
I know plenty of people that work outside in the heat, rain, freezing cold, and snow. I'd bet they would love to work only 180 days a year, and still get to complain about their low pay.

Exactly how does the teachers union take care of tenured teachers? I am confused by what you are trying to say here.Pheaton

Once a teacher receives tenure, it's almost impossible to fire them for
non-performance. The most that can be hoped for is a suspension "with pay."
When teachers are asked to contribute one or two percent Co-pay towards their medical, the union will threaten a strike. My neighbor's (teacher) benefit package is phenomenal, it beats what I had in the private sector by miles.
My neighbor is a very honest guy, and confides in me that he thinks a teacher's aide in every class is a waste of money. It does create another dues paying union member though.

 

[Halon451]

My dad bought me a Daisy BB Gun when I was 10. I shot out the window on his Ford LTD with it. I don't own any fire arms now.

I own one gun these days. I don't use it to hunt, and it's no antique. I live in a decent neighborhood in the suburbs of Tampa, and I hope and pray I never have to use it for what it is intended for - home protection. Every day I wake up, and the news contains more reports of home invasions and break-ins, so many of them committed by those under 18. Hopefully my ADT system will scare off potential intruders long before I even have a chance to react.

My father, when he was young, combined with HIS father owned several guns in their house, and they slept with their doors unlocked, completely unafraid.

Is this modern day paranoia? I tend to think of it as modern day awareness.

 

[Alamar]

I agree with you... to an extent.

I don't necessarily think that a complete overhaul is required - that presents a rather dangerous scenario, and it is how sociological and cultural reforms have precipitated even more undesirable outcomes - think, the rise of the Soviet Union, communism in general, Hitler youth, etc.

I believe that the concepts and the ideologies that formed what America is today are as sound and secure, more so than probably any other society the world has ever seen. It has what has helped this country become a world power in such a short amount of time, from it's humble colonial beginnings to basically leading the world...

I say that with some reservation - I've been to a lot of countries around the world, and the general attitude towards America is not one of respect - it is one of ridicule more than anything.

You summed it up beautifully with stating stressing personal freedom balanced with personal responsibility combined with a reasonable implementation of "the golden rule" would take us a long way towards fixing our internal problems. Bingo, man - well said.

Along with that Avaserfi hit on two major points - lack of proper parenting and poor education in our school systems. My wife works in the public school system and I get to hear the reports first hand. It's a sobering revelation...

I didn't mean to imply that the US has poor systems or that we should scrap our entire system of government/education/etc. The problem isn't those systems per-se.

The overhaul that I'm talking about is exactly the rebalancing of personal freedom vs. personal responsiblity vs. golden rule idea. I believe that we've drifted a long way from these core principles and nothing short of an overhaul in thinking / values / etc. is going to fix our largest problems. [Not just with education]

 

[Halon451]

The overhaul that I'm talking about is exactly the rebalancing of personal freedom vs. personal responsiblity vs. golden rule idea. I believe that we've drifted a long way from these core principles and nothing short of an overhaul in thinking / values / etc. is going to fix our largest problems. [Not just with education]

What do you think would help that? I agree with you, but I fear that the biggest problem isn't that people are not aware of these values, and the precarious balance between personal freedom and responsibility, it's just that they just don't care anymore. Apathy is what is going to destroy us, not ignorance.

Like I mentioned in one of my earlier posts - we have all become far too lazy and complacent. We don't understand the need to remain strong and true to our value system. We cherish the rights and freedoms we have as individuals, even as they are slowly being taken away, with the majority of citizens unaware, or uncaring as to the mechanisms of eventual defeat in this country.

I won't promote hard-core conservative right-wing Christian values - that is to say, anything outside the realm of common sense, morality, and decency carries with it a political agenda (on some level); but that I do wish that the people of this country would wake up and see what is going on as a whole. This kind of thinking exists outside the boundaries of political labels and religious beliefs - that we as humans must be capable of being rational, compassionate beings, with a built in desire to succeed and prosper, and maintain the way of life we now take for granted.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I won't promote hard-core conservative right-wing Christian values - that is to say, anything outside the realm of common sense, morality, and decency carries with it a political agenda (on some level); but that I do wish that the people of this country would wake up and see what is going on as a whole. This kind of thinking exists outside the boundaries of political labels and religious beliefs - that we as humans must be capable of being rational, compassionate beings, with a built in desire to succeed and prosper, and maintain the way of life we now take for granted.

"Christian values" (and religious values in general) are part of the problem. By teaching kids to turn to an arbitrary book for moral guidance, parents are teaching them not to develop and listen to their own concience. People need a sense of right and wrong that is built-in, not one that requires stopping to "look up" answers. Also, the few rules that should be absolute are allowed to have exceptions. For example, "Thou shalt not kill" means exactly that. It does not mean "Thou shalt not kill unless the person you are killing is Muslim, gay, or runs an abortion clinic."

 

[Halon451]

Well, I won't necessarily condemn the use of religion as a way of leading a decent life. Hey, if someone needs a book to tell them they shouldn't go out and commit acts of violence or disruption, and live the rest of their lives free from crime and hatred - great for them, and in turn great from us - one less criminal we have to worry about. However it shouldn't be used as the benchmark solution for population control, which is what I was getting at, but I don't see a problem with the general message it does contain - at least it is one of empathy and compassion. So be it.

If you can't gather by now, I'm not a terribly religous person, but I do put great value in decency amongst humans, and place emphasis on the fact that we are born with a higher order of intelligence; and so many are choosing to waste it.

 

[aberkowitz]

"Christian values" (and religious values in general) are part of the problem. By teaching kids to turn to an arbitrary book for moral guidance, parents are teaching them not to develop and listen to their own concience. People need a sense of right and wrong that is built-in, not one that requires stopping to "look up" answers. Also, the few rules that should be absolute are allowed to have exceptions. For example, "Thou shalt not kill" means exactly that. It does not mean "Thou shalt not kill unless the person you are killing is Muslim, gay, or runs an abortion clinic."

I totally disagree- and no I'm not even Christian. Many people in the country and around the world (and not just the radicals) use religion to help guide them in their decisions- whether its used as a guideline for a set of morals/beliefs or just as a support system, religion can be an important and a relevant part of our lives. There is a lot of wisdom that can be found in reading "an arbitrary book" (as you term it)- whether that book is the Bible, the Torah, the Koran, or the Tibetan Book of the Dead. People find comfort in religion and in the writings in these books, and there's nothing wrong with that. And there's nothing wrong with teaching that to your children. Children should learn to use ALL sources of knowledge to make their decisions- and one of those CAN include religion and it can be done so in a way that religion doesn't become their only source for making decisions. Children can be taught that having faith is a positive way to live their life, and that faith can be used to help them through tough times. For the best example of that- why don't you go read the thread that Zumbo posted about his baby. Did you notice that almost everybody who responded mentioned God in some way??? Did you see malicious intent in that??

To your point about "looking things up"- of course children should things up when they make decisions! They should learn that decisions aren't made in a vacuum, and that we can have our family, our friends, our colleagues, our faith, and our own memories to use as sources and guidelines for our decisions. You are correct in stating that using only one of those can lead to bad decisions, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't teach our children to use their religion to help during tough times.

Your beliefs are your beliefs and I respect them. What I have a problem with is when you make horrible sweeping generalizations about people and criticize their beliefs. Not just their actions, but what they feel inside. That's not debating a point, that's called being insensitive and ignorant. And that makes you worse than the people you criticize.

 

[Halon451]

Well.. there ya go. I was trying to be nice.

 

[aberkowitz]

I'll be nice when I feel somebody respects me. What I don't like is when somebody will vilify me because I may have certain beliefs, and yet they haven't even met me.

Oh- and I have no problem giving it out to both sides

 

[Halon451]

I hear ya man. It is plain to see where Joe was going with his comment regarding "killing", and I chose not to follow him there, and focus instead on the positive influence religion can have in society - even though I am not religous myself.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

What I have a problem with is when you make horrible sweeping generalizations about people and criticize their beliefs.

I have never done either of those things where religion is concerned. (I don't mind criticizing about politics because those who vote for idiots deserve what they get.)

 

[Joe Schmoe]

However it shouldn't be used as the benchmark solution for population control.

Speaking of population control, this is an area where religious leaders could do some real good in the world, but have thus far chosen not to. If the Pope (eg) were to publicly announce: "Because the Earth has become severely overcrowded, it is acceptable and encouraged to use birth control", this would dramatically improve the human condition in the coming decades.

 

[aberkowitz]

Speaking of population control, this is an area where religious leaders could do some real good in the world, but have thus far chosen not to. If the Pope (eg) were to publicly announce: "Because the Earth has become severely overcrowded, it is acceptable and encouraged to use birth control", this would dramatically improve the human condition in the coming decades.

But that's not what he believes. I agree it would do some good, and I also disagree with the Catholic church's official stance on birth control (as well as their stances on a lot of things). But the Pope holds certain beliefs and his followers also hold those beliefs, and that's not going to change very easily or anytime soon.

 

[aberkowitz]

I have never done either of those things where religion is concerned. (I don't mind criticizing about politics because those who vote for idiots deserve what they get.)

I'm sorry, but you specifically wrote:

""Christian values" (and religious values in general) are part of the problem. By teaching kids to turn to an arbitrary book for moral guidance, parents are teaching them not to develop and listen to their own concience. People need a sense of right and wrong that is built-in, not one that requires stopping to "look up" answers."

That is a sweeping generalization and you are criticizing people for the way they want to raise their children.

 

[TLS Guy]

Time to pull the plug on this thread

It's time to wrap this thread up. It's getting off topic and way away from anything to do with audio or video. It's degenerating into babble!

 

[Halon451]

Whose side are you on Joe? The reason religion should not be used in conjunction with political agendas is because it has been attempted before in history, and it has always failed. This is why our colonial ancestors fought to have freedom of religion, and the freedom to worship as they please, apart from governmental influence. This is one of our most sacred freedoms, and American lives in history were given so that we would have this freedom. The minute religious leaders begin trying to implement measures to take control of society and nobody objects, is the moment we're all lost.

Back to the point - all we were trying to say is that there are good messages in religion, and for some, who need to lean towards a particular faith (and many do, because the unknown frightens the bejesus out of them), it helps them add substance and definition to what is already an inherent part of the human condition.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying. Please help me understand.

 

[Halon451]

It's time to wrap this thread up. It's getting off topic and way away from anything to do with audio or video. It's degenerating into babble!

TLS Guy, this thread has absolutely nothing to do with audio/video and never did. That's why I posted it in the Steam Vent, because at the time I had some steam that needed venting! I figured by now the interest in this thread would have died off, but it keeps coming back in new and refreshing ways, so I'm still in there with the few that remain.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I'm sorry, but you specifically wrote:

""Christian values" (and religious values in general) are part of the problem. By teaching kids to turn to an arbitrary book for moral guidance, parents are teaching them not to develop and listen to their own concience. People need a sense of right and wrong that is built-in, not one that requires stopping to "look up" answers."

That is a sweeping generalization and you are criticizing people for the way they want to raise their children.

Wrong. It is a simple statement of the fact that kids are being taught to rely on something outside themselves to make choices about right and wrong, and the fact that this ends up being a replacement for the internal "moral compass" that they would otherwise develop. Describing the outcome of a particular action is not criticism (no more than telling someone "jumping off the roof is part of the problem with your knees".)