America's Unchallenged Youth...

[cbraver]

Haha, my half-sarcastic, half-satire style of humor doesn't come off well on the Internet. TLS Guy picked up on it, though, thanks for that. That's why I picked on you in that post at the end there.

Cbraver, stop playing the victim - this is an issue that affects all of us, no matter the age group involved. By merely pointing out the deficiencies of the "older" generation, you are doing nothing to contribute to a solution, and are in effect, hypocritical in the fact that you are pointing fingers at "us", while you claim we're pointing the finger at "you". Re-read some of my earlier posts - this is NOT about playing the blame game, and I am not trying to blame anyone in particular, as THAT WILL DO NOTHING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

Everyone is to blame. I'm not a victim anymore than you were of your preceding generation.

I will give you some credit to the fact that you do recognize an undesirable situation exists. Please feel free to offer some examples of anything you have done to further your generations contribution to society, or to our country, other than throwing your hands up and calling out the older generation for thier mistakes.

Well, I'm a mechanical and composite engineering student. I might be useful in the future. But, mostly I just throw up my hands in the air and blame my elders. And TV, that too. Video games. And Martha Stewart!

I agree that many of these problems do exist because of a sweeping trend that has manifested itself in our society, beginning long before any of us were born. I have accepted my own part of the blame, do you have the moral courage to do the same?

Absolutely. I'm part of the problem!

Read up on some history, and note the preceding events that led to the eventual downfall of notable empires - the Romans, the English, etc. You are looking at things through a tiny portal, but you are not seeing the big picture.

Books, pft. My generation doesn't read. Reading is for suckers. My TV is too small to see the big picture.

And since you brought it up - wait until a car bomb goes off next to you when you are out shopping, to tell anyone that we are not in a war on terror. This is the world we live in, in the 21st century - where wars are not fought merely on front lines. Our enemies surround us, and they walk among us. They are you and I, in the sense that you cannot tell them apart from anyone else you meet on the street. The LAST god d**n thing we need to do is ignore this fact - when we will all be standing around one day, wondering what happened to America?

Oh the fear, the fear. We have more people that hate us now than we had in 2001. We created our current enemies. We need to focus on protecting our boarders, not protecting someone elses that doesn't even really want it.

Oh, we were too busy chasing after rainbows and empty promises, and laying down our weapons for the sake of only what the liberal media was trying to cram down our throats, as the enemy (that you apparently deny) was closing in...

I'm not laying down my weapons. I just bought a new H&K.

And I'll throw this one out there. 8 year Navy veteran, at your service.

Fully serious here: Thank you for your service.

 

[Halon451]

Alright, alright... I gotcha. Let it be known that it was never my intent to start a pissing match with anyone over these issues. God knows, there's enough of that in Washington these days, and it's getting us nowhere.

This is just something that I feel very strongly about, so I apologize if I didn't pick up on the sarcasm and humor - I'm reading other's posts, and I'm really reading them to the literal extent! There have been many great replies, and excellent points brought to the table.

I will admit that our leaders thus far in many cases, have led us astray, as a nation, and while I don't necessarily hate the Bush administration, I certainly don't agree with many things that have transpired since he was elected.

Cbraver - the reason we're not all speaking German right now, is because of our foreign involvement in WWII. With the exception of Pearl Harbor, there was not a single loss of life on our soil from that war, it was fought entirely overseas, and I believe we can all appreciate the end result of that conflict. This can't be said enough, if we don't fight the enemy on their turf, then we're eventually going to have to fight them on ours.

But, this is all getting off track. Back to the kids, shall we?

 

[Rickster71]

Hello all, I'm a little late to this party, so I won't rehash any of the well written post in the thread.
As to the subject of teachers.
I'd like to recommend the book "Freakonomics" by Steven D. Levitt.

The book covers many subjects, and explores "The hidden side of everything"
For example, one subject: Cheating in the school system is explored, from detailed analysis of students' answers to multiple choice questions. But first Levitt asks, "What would the pattern of answers look like if the teacher cheated?"
Also, what would motivate a teacher to cheat, by altering the students answers on a multiple choice test?
Would the $25,000 bonus, that the state of California gave to teachers who produced big test score gains, be reason enough to cheat?
It's a very lively read, and covers several subjects, like: Which is more dangerous, a swimming pool or a gun?
What do school teachers and sumo wrestlers have in common? Hint...many cheat.
http://books.google.com/books?id=LkQPOSXMUscC&dq=freakonomics&pg=PP1&ots=4nUmF5mvG_&sig=r5gRo0ylo-gJBGYSurhnFaaRH5k&prev=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Freakonomics&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail

 

[Halon451]

That looks like an interesting book, I'll have to check it out sometime. Thanks Rickster.

Cbraver, I'm sure the YouTube version will be out soon enough! LOL

EDIT: Oh, and I've already called off the dogs, so no need to worry.

 

[aberkowitz]

That looks like an interesting book, I'll have to check it out sometime. Thanks Rickster.

Cbraver, I'm sure the YouTube version will be out soon enough! LOL

If you want to understand more about behavioral economics, I would recommend reading anything written by Richard Thaler- the man who founded the field. Levitt is interesting, but like many economists that I've met and studied under (I did my MBA at U of Chicago) his models tend to be detached from reality. There's a similar book written by Steven Landsberg, a well-known economist former teacher of mine at University of Rochester, called "The Armchair Economist". He and Levitt think very similarly. Landsberg once wrote an editorial that the NY Times published in which he advocated for people without AIDS to be more promiscuous (having safe sex of course), therefore reducing the chance that you'd have sex with somebody infected with AIDS because it would lower the overall percentage of people having sex with AIDS. Interesting argument and it makes perfect sense to an economist who views the world as behaving efficiently or inefficiently. Once you remove the controls of the model, many of the variables start to heavily fluctuate and you end up with a theory that has no relevant conclusion.

My biggest problem with guys like Levitt and Landsberg is that they believe you can use the same economic principles that work for defined (even chaotic) markets and apply them to human beings. However, as people like Thaler will describe, human beings don't generally behave "rationally" (the opposite of which is normative, not irrational ) and most standard economic models assume a tendency towards rational (or optimal) decision making.

Bottom line- now that I've completely bored everybody to death- read Levitt, but read Thaler as well and compare the two. I think you'll find it interesting.

Now back to the children.......

 

[Rickster71]

If you want to understand more about behavioral economics, I would recommend reading anything written by Richard Thaler- the man who founded the field. Levitt is interesting, but like many economists that I've met and studied under (I did my MBA at U of Chicago) his models tend to be detached from reality.
My biggest problem with guys like Levitt and Landsberg is that they believe you can use the same economic principles that work for defined (even chaotic) markets and apply them to human beings. However, as people like Thaler will describe, human beings don't generally behave "rationally" (the opposite of which is normative, not irrational ) and most standard economic models assume a tendency towards rational (or optimal) decision making.

Bottom line- now that I've completely bored everybody to death- read Levitt, but read Thaler as well and compare the two. I think you'll find it interesting.

Now back to the children.......

So....did you read Freakonomics, by Levitt?
I did, and I'm not sure I'd draw the same conclusion.
Though, without reading Thaler it wouldn't be fair to judge just yet.
I will look for something by Richard Thaler.
Do you recommend a particular Thaler book?
Rick

 

[Rickster71]

Well, I ran the numbers - I'll admit I may have been slightly off-base, because the last time I heard the salaries were in the mid $30's for this area. Nevertheless, here you go:

(Taken from Monster Salary Reports)
Teachers Average Salary in the Tampa, Florida region: $39,302 - $52,518, with a median salary of $45,081.

That's not terribly bad until you factor in the cost of living down here -
So even at the median salary - a teacher would either have to elect to go into sub-standard housing, rent a cheaper apartment, or be living perilously close to the edge, probably paycheck to paycheck in order to make ends meet.

Then he or she has to go to school and deal with a bunch of little spoiled, over-privileged s**theads all day long - how soon before the dream starts to turn into a nightmare?

Keep in mind that pay is for working only 180 days a year!
That is the length of the school year here in NJ anyway.
Getting a job with summers off is very attractive to a person about to graduate college. They are not victims, they know the deal going in, and bank on the fact the teachers union will keep care of them, once tenured. (and the union does, 65% of my property taxes go towards schools)

My neighbor is a school teacher and makes $45k here in NJ.
Keeping in mind, everything in NJ costs more than most other states.
He just bought two pieces of property in South Carolina. One is 3 acres lake front, and the other is 5 acres.

The dream has turned into a nightmare.....the tax payers.

 

[cbraver]

Cbraver, I'm sure the YouTube version will be out soon enough! LOL

EDIT: Oh, and I've already called off the dogs, so no need to worry.

Haha, nah. Actually, YouTube could explain a lot....but since we all love music on this forum, I recommend getting some CD's instead.

For example, Sublime is like a crash course in 20 something year olds like me from warm climates. Pickup "40oz To Freedom" and "Stand By Your Van" (live album). I bet you'll love the music. After you fall in love with those pickup the rest of Sublime's music.

Check out this Sublime video off YouTube:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KI2INBQVpwk (BadFish)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pLuFUcgZqJY (Some concert footage, Bradley messed up)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=X892Az9IQ0Y (if you get this far you're already hooked, haha)

I know a lot of people don't like rap on this forum, but let Mos Def speak to you for a bit:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pLuFUcgZqJY

"Young bloods can't spell but they could rock you in PlayStation
This new math is whippin _____________ ___,
You wanna know how to rhyme you better learn how to add,
It's mathematics.

I have that on vinyl, great music. No bling-bling crap coming from Mos Def, only truth.

As far as the 10-15 year olds out there now, I have no idea what they are listening too. I should probably find out.

 

[Halon451]

For example, Sublime is like a crash course in 20 something year olds like me from warm climates. Pickup "40oz To Freedom" and "Stand By Your Van" (live album). I bet you'll love the music. After you fall in love with those pickup the rest of Sublime's music.

It isn't for just 20-somethings. Again, I'm far from being an "old guy", relevant to how you look at it, of course. Sublime is one of my favorite bands. I've been into them for years.

Here's what's making the rotation in my iPod at the moment:
-Tool
-Clutch
-Queens of the Stone Age
-Operation Ivy
-Fugazi
-Henry Rollins (spoken word album)
-Hot Water Music
-Black Snake Moan soundtrack (great blues!!)
-Peeping Tom (Mike Patton project - musical genius, IMO)
-Tom Waits

I know it's not relavent to this thread, but I just had to get that out there - you're making me feel OLD, man...

I'll let you have the rap stuff. That's where I draw the line.

 

[cbraver]

It isn't for just 20-somethings. Again, I'm far from being an "old guy", relevant to how you look at it, of course. Sublime is one of my favorite bands. I've been into them for years.

Awesome! Check out "Everything Under the Sun" if you haven't already. Lots of unreleased stuff that I didn't even have on bootlegs came out with that set. It's amazing. I'm leaving for a three week vacation tomorrow (finally finals are over, 'wew), but I'll hook you up with Rewind Selector when I get back (Each song starts with a Sublime song, and then finishes with an influence of that song... it's really well done, but hard to find).

I know it's not relavent to this thread, but I just had to get that out there - you're making me feel OLD, man...

I'll let you have the rap stuff. That's where I draw the line.

Haha, I'm the one who keeps taking it off topic. It was just getting depressing, haha. Alright, deal on the rap.

 

[aberkowitz]

So....did you read Freakonomics, by Levitt?
I did, and I'm not sure I'd draw the same conclusion.
Though, without reading Thaler it wouldn't be fair to judge just yet.
I will look for something by Richard Thaler.
Do you recommend a particular Thaler book?
Rick

I did read Freakonomics- I thought it was a quick read and it made some interesting points... but it's "pop" economics. It takes a number of incredibly complex economics theories, applies them to easily understandable topics, and breaks them down into bite-sized pieces of information that any J6P can understand and say "Oh yeah, that's really cool!" I think it makes people think differently about something for 5 mintues, and then they go back to their lives.

If you study graduate level economics and spend time with a lot of academic economists (and I don't know anything about you so I can't say you haven't), you start to learn that the way they think is incredibly disconnected from reality. As I posted on the Sub Prime Mortgage thread in the steam vent, there's a reason most academic economists are Libertarians. They think in terms of efficiency, and they rarely account for human behavior. Even John Nash (A Beautiful Mind) when he wrote his famous theorem that is now used to explain human behavior, thought only in rational/optimal terms. What's cool about people like Thaler & Gary Becker to name a couple, is that they started to include theories from the world of psychology into traditional economics theories to create a new field. People like Levitt like to stick with the traditional economics theories and squeeze them into the existing world.

Enough ranting- the first book to start with is the Winner's Curse. I will warn you that it gets overly statistical at times, so feel free to skim the middle of the chapters- but you absolutely must read the start and the end of each chapter b/c that's where the punch line is.

 

[Alex2507]

My 14 year old tries to tell me that I don't understand. I tell him that I've been 14. He's the one who has never been 42. He tells me it's all different now. I tell him that being 14 hasn't changed in hundreds of years. Genetics and hormones make you a how you are. Genetics and hormones will make things the same for 14 year olds 100 years from now just like they did 100 years ago. I tell him that 80 year olds know more about being 14 than he does.

My father told me "mladost prodje". It means youth passes. My older sister likes to say that youth is wasted on the young.

My point is that it's the SOS! One thing I have learned is to not stand in the way of fashion. I'm careful not to tell him what clothes to wear, how to cut his hair and which music to listen to. It didn't fly in the 60's and it ain't ever gonna fly. See?, it never changes. Yet for the young it's all new, like life was invented just for them. At least that's how I felt about it 25 freakin' years ago. Ahhhh.....to be young again and have life's major mistakes still ahead of me.

 

[aberkowitz]

My 14 year old tries to tell me that I don't understand. I tell him that I've been 14. He's the one who has never been 42. He tells me it's all different now. I tell him that being 14 hasn't changed in hundreds of years. Genetics and hormones make you a how you are. Genetics and hormones will make things the same for 14 year olds 100 years from now just like they did 100 years ago. I tell him that 80 year olds know more about being 14 than he does.

My father told me "mladost prodje". It means youth passes. My older sister likes to say that youth is wasted on the young.

My point is that it's the SOS! One thing I have learned is to not stand in the way of fashion. I'm careful not to tell him what clothes to wear, how to cut his hair and which music to listen to. It didn't fly in the 60's and it ain't ever gonna fly. See?, it never changes. Yet for the young it's all new, like life was invented just for them. At least that's how I felt about it 25 freakin' years ago. Ahhhh.....to be young again and have life's major mistakes still ahead of me.

That reminds me what my mother used to tell me when I was 14 and though I knew everything- The day you wake up and realize that you don't know sh$t, that's the day that you start becoming an adult.

I know people who wish they could go do it over knowing what they know now.... personally, I think it's much more fun to not know a thing and believe life was invented for you- it makes the lessons more meaningful.

 

[Alex2507]

What lessons? I haven't learned a thing. Did I miss something? One thing I do know is that my body hurts in all the places they said it would hurt and frankly I resent them for it. Smug bastards! I'm gonna start my own hate group and call it Kick a Senior.

 

[Halon451]

I tell him that being 14 hasn't changed in hundreds of years.

I don't know if I can agree with that statement Alex - part of the problem as I see it is simply too much sensory perception. Life moves at a far quicker pace now then it did 100 years ago, both for kids and for their parents. The parents are generally overworked, overstressed, and tend to give up too easily on the actual act of "parenting". So instead they plop little Junior in front of the TV, or the computer, and they watch the world whip by them a million miles a second, in every conceivable way. Because of this, they are exposed to the world for all of its beauty, and all of its ugliness - and while Mom or Dad is taking a nap on the couch, they are becoming desensitized to the evils of the world, and at the speed of light.

It's no wonder kids have such short attention spans these days. Even in the last decade, through the ever exponential advances in technology, the web has become a household necessity, whereas ten years ago, eh - maybe a few people had it here and there.

Telling them how to dress, how to cut their hair, what music to listen to is not the answer. This will make a kid rebel, instinctively. I would want my child to have as open of a mind as possible going into this world, and be able to recognize what makes him tick, and feel free to pursue his own dreams. Stepping between them and the TV, however and offering guidance and discipline, showing them the evils of the world, instead of having them see it on their own, and letting them know the dangers, and various pitfalls along the way - I think will better prepare them.

This is easier said than done, admittedly. I think many parents fall for the trap of trying to "befriend" their children, when this - also, is not the answer.

14 year olds now are carrying guns to school. They are dealing drugs. When I was 14, I was too busy climbing trees and wondering if that cute girl in my math class liked me.

Times have changed brother. The quicker we realize this, the better off we'll be.

 

[Alex2507]

Were 14 year olds not carrying guns a couple of hundred years ago? In Europe one of my uncles fought in WWII at that age. Just on the wrong side.

Congrats on a enjoyable thread. We can agree to disagree on the sameness of humanity in different eras.

 

[Rickster71]

I did read Freakonomics- I thought it was a quick read and it made some interesting points... but it's "pop" economics. It takes a number of incredibly complex economics theories, applies them to easily understandable topics, and breaks them down into bite-sized pieces of information that any J6P can understand

What's cool about people like Thaler & Gary Becker to name a couple, is that they started to include theories from the world of psychology into traditional economics theories to create a new field. People like Levitt like to stick with the traditional economics theories and squeeze them into the existing world.

Enough ranting- the first book to start with is the Winner's Curse. I will warn you that it gets overly statistical at times, so feel free to skim the middle of the chapters- but you absolutely must read the start and the end of each chapter b/c that's where the punch line is.

I agree that it had a "Pop Economic" component to it.
With that being said, that component is what made an otherwise dry economic theory, palatable to a greater number of readers; and possibly attracting new students to the study of economics.
I also liked the fact that it was void of political correctness. Which I feel led to some of the books criticism.
I found it to an exercise in behavioral economics, which attempts to combine the pure-logic tools of classical economics, while understanding the emotional impulses of human behavior.

Thank You for the book recommendation.
Rick

 

[Sheep]

A modern heresy right there! Where is your sense of community? It's that reasoning that really will wash us down the drain. If you take your argument to its logical conclusion, any depravity or even criminality is justified by freedom of expression.

My sense of community? If someone wants to waste their life, and fully knows they're wasting their life.. so be it. I'm not going to waste my time trying to fix their problems, or compensate for their lack of commitment.

If someone is set on failing, they will fail. No amount of money, or effort in any way is going to change that. That's something you need to realize. Your school system seemed to work for those students on international visa's. They came to North America, to learn, and prosper. You're youth doesn't seem to care, and that is their choice.

SheepStar

 

[Halon451]

Were 14 year olds not carrying guns a couple of hundred years ago? In Europe one of my uncles fought in WWII at that age. Just on the wrong side.

Congrats on a enjoyable thread. We can agree to disagree on the sameness of humanity in different eras.

My Dad carried a gun when he was 14, only he wasn't listening to gansta rap, with an itchy trigger finger, ready to point and shoot at the next person who gives him a dirty look, he was hunting deer in the woods. His Dad gave it to him, taught him how to use it properly, how NOT to use it (of course), and stood by his side when he had it in his hands.

I agree, this thread has turned into something worth remembering. I really didn't realize the outpouring of thoughts and emotions the subject would elicit, but it has been very enjoyable. It is reassuring to know that so many people are thinking about these things, and though opinions and ideas may vary from here to there, that is what truly evokes the pattern of change - the whole 'sum is greater than it's parts' philosophy. All in all, this has been one of the most intelligent discussions I've had in a while.

 

[stratman]

My dad bought me my first Crossman pellet rifle, my first Ruger .22, he taught me how to use it and the responsibility that went with it, when Mikey is old enough I still have my pellet rifle and .22 and like my dad before me I'll teach him marksmanship, safety and most important respect.

One correlation I do find disturbing is the incidence of violent teens and parental divorce, a statisic that has quadrupled in the last 100 years.