America's Unchallenged Youth...

[Nimrod]

I coach 3 different baseball teams each year. This year my kids /teams are playing at the varsity level. My spin: Most of my kids on all these baseball teams are on the honor roll at their schools, smart kids. All these kids, the parents involved, the kids are "good kids", and these kids are from all different finical circumstances.

What I've noticed is that the kids are spoiled, and lack the "Killer instinct" and drive. They'll just go along with the flow.

 

[aberkowitz]

What I've noticed is that the kids are spoiled, and lack the "Killer instinct" and drive. They'll just go along with the flow.

That's interesting. One of my issues, or at least based on my own experiences, is that I think we want kids to have the killer instinct way too early. I grew up in a town with one of the top school systems in the country, and all of us were expected to be top achievers from the start. Honors classes as young as 6th grade, who can take the most AP classes, who could get the best SAT scores (I know kids who got 1560/70/80 and retook) who can get into the most Ivy's, who can have the most activities- and all the while sabotaging those around us so they did worse (and I do mean actual acts of sabotage). By 11th grade I was so burned out I started to rebel against the entire system and stopped studying for a year... I was just sick of the competition. It's not that I'm not competitive or don't have ambition, I'm incredibly successful and have been at every step on the way, I just thought the killer instinct at 13/14/15 was a bit too much. I couldn't handle fighting about GPA and class rank every single day.

For me, college was a godsend b/c I was finally able to work with people and not against them. College was incredibly easy for me compared to high school, I got even better grades with half the work- and I went to a top 25 school- it was the absence of needless pressure. I love pressure and thrive on it, but as a teenager there are limits.

 

[Halon451]

Well, that's basically human nature at work Nimrod - nothing compels the human spirit to thrive and do well like a little good old fashioned hardship.

The beauty of our society is that we really don't need a killer instinct to survive, just (in my opinion) a few things; credibility, honesty, motivation, and a good work ethic (which all kind of go hand in hand). An attitude like this will likely carry anyone from kindergarten through old age in a very handsome way, regardless of the financial situation they were born into.

Now I'm going to contradict my own statement regarding hardship - this doesn't take into account the inner-city dilemna, where hardship is the norm, yet millions of low-income families are standing around with their hand out, waiting for that next government check to arrive. It has become the norm to expect that the world somehow "owes" them something and they willingly choose the path of least resistance that ultimately does nothing to improve their situation.

This mentality is taught; the kids in these situation are not products of their environment, they are products of what they have learned.

And so the cycle repeats, year after year...

 

[Joe Schmoe]

What was the purpose of this post?

To clarify that the disrespect that other countries have for the US is not simply jealousy or pettiness, but justified by the public face that we collectively present.

 

[Halon451]

To clarify,

At any rate, carelessness and lack of a will to better themselves - it's an epidemic regardless of who or what's at fault - my post wasn't an attempt to play the blame game at this or that, just my own frustrations with watching our potential leaders of tomorrow waste away on nonsense.

Not to engage in political bashing, or to discredit our nation's own leaders, despite their many shortcomings - this is food for another thread.

Thank you.

 

[Pheaton]

However I also think we need to look to potentially privatize more of the public school systems. The teachers union in this country is incredibly strong, however it tends to do more harm than good. They oppose minimum education standards (e.g. masters degrees), they oppose the ability to fire a teacher for underperforming, they oppose merit pay, and they still maintain the mindset of "us vs. them" when it comes to school boards as opposed to thinking about the job that they do. If we paid teachers enough money, there'd be no need for a union and we could actually institute corporate-style controls and performance reviews so we could reward the good ones and throw out the bad ones on a yearly basis. There's a reason companies like GE have been successful for many years- why can't we use some of that knowledge to run school systems?

Hi,
Let me state for the record that I am a public high school teacher. I think this has been an excellent thread and I do agree with most of what has been said about the problems with the 'unchallenged youth'. But I would like to ask how do you determine merit pay for a teacher? What would a performance review for a teacher look like? What tangible and/or quantifiable quality of the teacher do you have to look at?

I'm not trying to be defensive here, but I think developing a system to seperate the qualities of the teacher from qualities of the students is more difficult than most people think.

I am in total agreement that our education system does need to be improved, but using a corporate model, IMO, is not the answer.

Pheaton

 

[TLS Guy]

Facinating thread!

I agree that this issue starts in the home. Unfortunately divorce is too common and too easy. As a Physician I can tell you few are happier after a divorce and the children are usually put in an impossible situation. Worse the stats show the children of divorced parents are much more likely to get divorced.

As far as the schools are concerned, we need to minimize learning by rote. We need to teach applied logic and critical thinking skills. In this age of rapid change we need to instill in all students the importance of and desire for life long learning.

To get back to audio, the unsatisfactory Hollywood crowdand their promotion of loose sex and morals certainly does not help. Yes the same ones who saddle us with DRM and wobbly HDCP handshakes. Now there is misguided and perverted intellectual effort if there ever was!

 

[pzaur]

Interesting read so far. There have been some great points about why America's youth are so behind the rest of the world. I agree with most. I just want to state my few points:

1) It is no longer considered to be fair to honor those students who succeed compared to the other students. It hurts the feelings of the students who don't achieve that success and makes them feel bad.

2) Parenting is done by TV.

3) Many parents take the side of the student over the side of the teacher for anything that occurs in the school. After all, "my child never lies."

4) It's always someone else's fault for the student's failure. There is no ownership of actions or accountability.

5) I'm gonna be a professional athlete. I don't need an education. (I hear this more than I care to admit)

I teach 5th and 6th band.

-pat

 

[aberkowitz]

Hi,
Let me state for the record that I am a public high school teacher. I think this has been an excellent thread and I do agree with most of what has been said about the problems with the 'unchallenged youth'. But I would like to ask how do you determine merit pay for a teacher? What would a performance review for a teacher look like? What tangible and/or quantifiable quality of the teacher do you have to look at?

I'm not trying to be defensive here, but I think developing a system to seperate the qualities of the teacher from qualities of the students is more difficult than most people think.

I am in total agreement that our education system does need to be improved, but using a corporate model, IMO, is not the answer.

Pheaton

So what is the answer? Since you are a teacher I'd love to hear what you think. One of my biggest problems with the teachers union (and I'm not lumping you in here) is that they love to speak about the problems via stump speeches, but you never actually hear any solutions come from them. It's just more of the status quo.

As for merit pay- I think it needs to be a mix of quantitative and qualitative measurements... just the same as the rest of the working world gets measured. A small portion of it can be linked to test scores, because those are the only good quantitative measures that we have. The rest should be done through observation by superiors and peer review. No more of the planned observations either where the teacher knows about it 2 weeks in advance and can plan a lesson for the day- each teacher gets observed a set number of times a year with most of them being a surprise. Then teachers get reviewed on a set of qualitative measures by their school department head, district department head, and a sampling of peer reviews from fellow teachers. For elementary school teachers I think a small element (very small mind you) can come from simple surveys filled out by parents.

Look, I'm not saying this is perfect, but I'm just throwing out ideas. The only way things will actually improve is if we can get people in charge who start looking for a way to say yes to new ideas, not people who are looking for a way to always say no (and yes- I just ripped off the West Wing there )

 

[aberkowitz]

Interesting read so far. There have been some great points about why America's youth are so behind the rest of the world. I agree with most. I just want to state my few points:

1) It is no longer considered to be fair to honor those students who succeed compared to the other students. It hurts the feelings of the students who don't achieve that success and makes them feel bad.

2) Parenting is done by TV.

3) Many parents take the side of the student over the side of the teacher for anything that occurs in the school. After all, "my child never lies."

4) It's always someone else's fault for the student's failure. There is no ownership of actions or accountability.

5) I'm gonna be a professional athlete. I don't need an education. (I hear this more than I care to admit)

I teach 5th and 6th band.

-pat

Pat- just curious, how long have you been teaching? #'s 2, 3, 4, & to some extent 5 to me sound like they've been around for quite a long time.

 

[Halon451]

Interesting read so far. There have been some great points about why America's youth are so behind the rest of the world. I agree with most. I just want to state my few points:

1) It is no longer considered to be fair to honor those students who succeed compared to the other students. It hurts the feelings of the students who don't achieve that success and makes them feel bad.

2) Parenting is done by TV.

3) Many parents take the side of the student over the side of the teacher for anything that occurs in the school. After all, "my child never lies."

4) It's always someone else's fault for the student's failure. There is no ownership of actions or accountability.

5) I'm gonna be a professional athlete. I don't need an education. (I hear this more than I care to admit)

Exactly - it seems as if I was correct in assuming that my initial thread might open up Pandora's box on a surge of feelings that people have on this subject, and thankfully - helps reassure me that I'm not the only one troubled by these things.

You brought up some very good points, and these things really echo the context of what this thread was intended for - with an added bonus: lack of personal accountability. That has yet to be touched upon, and I suppose I should have included that in my previous list of things a person needs to be successful and competent - although I suppose it does tie in with credibility and honesty to a degree.

We as humans are only as good as we make ourselves to be. If once is all said and done, we can look back and say, "Yes, I did the very best I could do," then you are successful, NO MATTER your end financial status, demographic, and/or social class.

One is either helping to contribute to society, or they are a burden on it.

Oh, and when are we going to stop worrying about hurting people's sensitive feelings? I'm glad you mentioned that too - it kills the aforementioned concept of competiveness - that in order to be recognized, you must do something that earns that recognition, plain and simple - that is the way I was brought up, that was the way my own father taught me; and here's the bombshell -

I speak from experience on a lot of these issues, because I did go through much of my life as one of these troubled, mis-guided teens. Luckily, for the grace of god (or whomever), and my father who somehow, against all odds, managed to instill in me an underlying work ethic, and desire to learn as much as I could about life in general, and was there for me every step of the way, even when I rejected him. Looking back on it now, I can realize just how silly and ignorant I was living, even though I thought I had all the answers in the world - I was dead wrong.

And it pains me today to see so many of our youth going through the very same thing, but with one major difference: they don't have that strong support structure that my father provided for me, so the future is looking rather bleak.

 

[Alex2507]

Lastly, it must be remembered that fixing one part of the system (education problems) will not solve the other (poor parenting).

I believe that the "parent" (as is too often the case) is almost always real problem. Time and effort are required to raise a child. It's easy to be short on time and putting in the effort takes energy which is easy to mis-use. Let's face it, a lot of parents still want to do their own thing with the little bit of time and energy they have left over.

Blaming the unions is plain wrong. Without them the wages and working conditions would be dismal and then who would want to teach? You would end up with teachers having the competancy level of a high school drop out serving up fries and cokes at a fast food drive through.

Problem kids are problems because they aren't held accountable at home. Back in my day you could still catch a beating at school (not that I ever did). That alone kept all but the worst of us in line. I blame lawyers for that changing.

 

[aberkowitz]

Blaming the unions is plain wrong. Without them the wages and working conditions would be dismal and then who would want to teach? You would end up with teachers having the competancy level of a high school drop out serving up fries and cokes at a fast food drive through.

Nobody is blaming the unions for all of the problems. I just identified them as one of the problems with education system in this country- and if you read my original comment on teachers pay, I said that we should get rid of the union and raise teacher's pay quite a bit higher than where it is. At some point unions were relevant in certain industries to fix working conditions and raise salaries... I don't think you can make that argument today, certainly not in the teaching profession.

Plus, your argument about nobody wanting to teach without a union is quite flawed, since there's an incredibly strong union (chokehold level actually) and nobody wants to teach now!!!

The only way to get more teachers and teachers of better quality is to make teaching a financially desirable profession. There are so many high quality graduates coming out of American universities who never even think about teaching b/c the relatively small salaries that are associated with teaching won't even begin to cover their monthly student loan payments... let alone allow them to raise their own family in the future. There's an excess of new college grads going to top law schools today, many of whom have no interest in the law but see a JD as a way to be financially successful. If we could convince even 5% of those people to forgo the $180K investment in law school tuition for a 1 year masters program in education (at a much lower cost) and pay them a high quality wage, we could easily start to solve the teaching shortage.

 

[Halon451]

You both bring up good points that should not be discounted. I agree with Aberkowitz that Unions are not the answer - financial security is, and unions won't solve this issue. Unions did have a time and place in our society, back when wages were scant, and working conditions were truly dismal, as in sweatshop dismal. As the Industrial age began to take hold, and large corporations started coming into the picture, it was widely accepted that in order to increase profit margins, that meant slicing away the underbelly of the beast (so to speak), which ultimately directly affected the bottom level workers. Unions came about in order to increase worker's rights and gave lower and middle class America a voice in this changing environment.

Nowadays the Union mentality has become invasive to general good work ethic, and has morally corrupted the fabric of our nation's workforce. I have seen this firsthand among the skilled tradespeople in any of the construction projects and/or power plants I have worked on. My father who is a site manager at the Port of Tampa and deals directly with the railroads, watches millions of dollars in revenue go to waste on account of lazy, apathetic railroad workers who mill around with a "It's not my job" mentality, and has wrecked the concept of teamwork in an otherwise smooth operation.

I don't know that much about teacher's unions, but based on my own experiences with unions in general - well this is my $0.02.

Alex, I do agree that the issue with our children needs to be addressed at home first and foremost. Teachers need to be paid much more, but they first need to be held to a higher standard, and expected to do the jobs they are hired to do. There is no easy solution to this, that is for sure.

I have to imagine it's not easy walking into a classroom these days as a teacher and facing a group of high school students who have no respect for adults, no respect for the learning process, and in many alarming cases - no respect for the law. Fixing the problem at home before it becomes a problem will surely help ease the burden on the teachers and would consitute a better learning environment for all.

Parents are too afraid to be parents anymore...

 

[Alex2507]

I was under the impression that lots of people wanted to teach. 20/20 or 60 Minutes did a piece on it. They simply found out how many openings there were in a paticular area and counted the # of applications. I don't think teachers are under paid either. If they were they wouldn't be lining up to get these jobs. That at least is how the show made it look.

I have a hard time believing that the majority of railroad workers are lazy. C'mon, if they were the trains would never be on time. Seriously though, we've seen where not having the unions takes us. Takes people like me anyways. Companies/Organizations take care of themselves first. Without unions, who would there be to look out for the slaves?

I can't really say anything intelligent about rail roads. However after having worked both sides of the fence in construction I can say that people go to where the money is. Then talent drives out the competion and the best performers stay. The best performers and the FBI. Friends, Brothers and Inlaws. That's why I'm at home.

 

[Halon451]

I would hazard a guess that many people line up for teaching jobs because of the job itself, more so than the money - they have big aspirations of helping to shape and educate these young minds, and these notions are very noble and shouldn't be taken lightly. Any of you teachers that have replied to this thread please feel free to jump in here (this isn't my ground). Then when they get there, they realize it's not what they imagined. High school is a freaking rough place these days - more so than even when I was going through.

But I do feel that because of this, and because of the profound influence that these positions hold and how they have such a great responsibility with these young impressionable people, they should be compensated as such.

Here in Florida, right now - if I were alone and not married, I would not be able to live on a teacher's salary. It would be next to impossible. I would have to end up living in a low-rent apartment, driving an old beater around just to make sure I had enough money to pay the bills.

Now you put them in the position I mentioned before - facing an ever increasing situation with our kids lacking any kind of moral substance or learning desire, which presents an almost insurmountable challenge these days, and I beleive the end result speaks for itself.

 

[avaserfi]

I was under the impression that lots of people wanted to teach. 20/20 or 60 Minutes did a piece on it. They simply found out how many openings there were in a paticular area and counted the # of applications. I don't think teachers are under paid either. If they were they wouldn't be lining up to get these jobs. That at least is how the show made it look.

Even if there is an overflow of people willing to teach how many of those people will do a good job and take teaching as seriously as it needs to be and do it well?

Sure, there are quiet a few people who want to teach, but very few of them hold a standard high enough to teach well especially at a higher level. From my experience in the system this seems to be because they simply cannot (due to lack of understanding), will not (due to care) and lastly because they are not held up to a high enough standard by the institution itself.

Part of the problem behind this is pay. For the most part the best and brightest doesn't teach and its not because of inability. This is more likely due to so little money and opportunity for advancement in the sector especially for the hours required to teach well.

Teachers are one of the backbones of this country and we have been exploiting them long enough. Without proper teachers (and parental care) we have people who grow up with substandard reading levels, inability to do simple math, complete lack of critical thinking abilities and simple logic. Further this with the distancing from human contact within my generation due to technological advances and its not a pretty picture. Current and future generations rely on school and thus teachers to instill these values we must remember that and give back respect to teachers, where it belongs.

I have had very few teachers who I would consider being effective and while sometimes I believe the blame can be placed on them this is not always the case. Often times teachers are overworked (while being underpaid IMO) and unable to create appropriate lesson plans without completely giving up their lives. Add on the near complete lack of respect teachers are given by most and it makes you wonder why so many want to be teachers.

With the recent trends within American colleges to have fewer and fewer native math/science/engineering majors isn't it worth ensuring this countries future by securing the best and brightest to encourage future generations?

*I should note all my experiences within the education system are based on me being a student or my 6-7 friends that have graduated and are working at becoming or are teachers. Currently, I have no plans to become a teacher personally.

 

[Alex2507]

What is a teachers salary in FL? And which part of FL? And what does that salary become after 5 years?, 10 years? Teaching to me is a job like any other just with better perks. The teachers can't respond cause they're in school. Those perks might be what draws them into it. I would think volunteer work and the Peace Corps is for those with loftier motives.

That show I mentioned really put some #'s to what everybody is claiming underpaid is. The teachers will be able to tell you which show it was and how it was all skewed, when school lets out of course.

 

[stratman]

Another glaring problem is the politicization of the school system on a federal and state level. A noble profession hijacked and bloated beyond recognition, turned into a business like any other. Committees, PACs, unions, etc, my wife was a teacher until she got sick of the politics, bickering and the mindset of the local school board, the last on the list were always the kids, she got into law and doesn't miss the system, though at times she speaks of the kids and the sorry state of affairs her old colleagues still speak of. That said, how many politicians keep their kids in public schools? Or better yet, how many directors or upper management in schools (read: better salaries) keep their kids in the public school system?

 

[aberkowitz]

Alex- I will agree that in certain areas (particularly where I grew up in an affluent part of NJ) there are an influx of teachers. In my opinion there are two main drivers behind the high demand for teaching jobs in these areas: 1) They probably pay the highest salaries for teachers, and 2) They have students who are eager to learn, have good home support, and are generally well behaved. I highly doubt that the 60 minutes report showed an excessive supply of teachers in the Bronx, Chicago's South Side, South Central LA, Detroit, or the seedier parts of Miami.

Halon- I also agree with you that there is the altruistic side to these jobs, and that many people get into teaching because they want to help people. I have about 6 or 7 friends who are or have been teachers of various ages, and they all have that thread in common. That said they are all currently or have struggled with finances (mainly related to student loans) and some have left the profession because the job fulfillment was not putting food on the table.

I think we can break the cycle of hopelessness if we can inject the teaching profession with some new blood, and quite frankly with some higher quality individuals. Very rarely does teaching get the cream of the crop- these people go on to work in medicine, law, or on wall street. As a graduate of both a top undergrad university and a top 3 business school, I know of so many people who would make fabulous teachers (and several who said they'd like to teach after they retire) but who were driven away (either by their own ambition or by their parents) from the profession because of the financial limitations of the job. And its not just the actual teachers, but also the administrators. We need principals, department heads, and district staff that are driven for change- not just bureaucrats who like the status quo. This country needs to start looking at incentives to influence the 18-22 y/o "smart" kids that they have an opportunity to effect change and they can make good money, not wall street level money but upper middle class money, doing a job they might enjoy.

Schools are starting this to some extent already. There is a foundation (I forget the name) that providing full tuition reimbursement to business school students if they get a joint Masters in Education and take positions in education- moreso on the management/dept of education/superintendent's office level, but it's a start. Wharton is a big supporter and has developed a close relationship w/ Penn's education program. How great would it be if our high schools' math and science teachers could come from MIT & CalTech, and their social studies teachers from some of the top liberal arts colleges?

This is no quick fix, and it doesn't address the problem of crumbling facilities, cutting of arts programs, and a lack of books, but I think it always has to start with the teachers.

As for parenting- that's a whole other issue- and I have no answers there!!