B

bgrounds

Audioholic Intern
What are the thoughts here on Martin Logan in general?

Does anyone have experience with the Vista?
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
Just my thought about the ML line in general but here goes.

For the money spent you can do much much better,there are a bunch of problems to overcome with ML's & they have a small sweet spot,at one point a few years back i spent quite a but of time & effort listening to every ML i could find.

In some cases they sound very good but in most cases they are an average speaker with above average short commings.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Electrostatics

I agree with Hifihoney to an extent. Electrostatic speakers are an acquired taste. They are large panel bi-poles, and so they beam. That is the cause of the sweet spot.

If it is electrostatics you want then go with Quad.

The late Peter Waker OBE developed the Quad 63. He produced the world's first full range electrostatic loudspeaker by the way.

In the 63 he etched delay lines in the electrostatic membrane, that looks like an archery target. These speakers have a perfect radiation pattern like a stone thrown into a clear pond.

One slight word of caution. I have not heard the new speakers produced under the management of The International Audio Group. I have read reports that they have mucked them up, but can't be certain of this. So you might want to investigate a used pair of Quad ESL 63s. I can vouch for those. Peter personally showed me the production and demonstrated how a pair wired out of phase can cancel a square wave in mid air! I think they are the only speakers that ever produced a plausible square wave, let alone neutalize one.

Here is the link to Quad.

http://www.quad-hifi.co.uk/ranges.php?sector_id=1
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I have a lot to add here. I just bought some Summits this year.

There are undoubtedly many detractors of ML and I can understand where they are coming from. Anyways, I just bought my first of high quality speakers this year. I am a newcomer to high end audio, but I jumped straight into the deep end. I auditioned over 25 pairs of speakers before choosing, with a 6 cd auditioning array, filling up a small Mead notebook during this time. Fwiw, I know little or nothing about engineering or physics. I do however have a few degrees in classical music performance, internationally included. My honest experiences:

The compromises with ML hybrid electrostats, in order, in my opinion:
-sweetspot somewhere between small and tiny. (I’ve heard that SPL decreases only inversely with distance, not exponentially as with dynamic drivers, hence, the beaminess).
-Decent amount of space from boundaries is required
-Extremely tough impedances that require a high-current amp
-The self powered models must be plugged in
-Some compression at “reference levels”

Their strengths, not in order, in my opinion (compared to only what I have heard):
-IMO, unparalled transparency
-Unparalled midrange transients
-Unparalled low-level dynamics
-Unparalled “decay”(improper term?) You know, the death of a struck piano note, or plucked guitar note into death, ppp, pianississimo (I guess this is part of previous point)
-Unparalled vocal reproduction, generally strong with acoustical music in general.
-Lack of tremendous sibilance/hiss
-no tweeters to blow, er, something like that?… I listened to a drum solo of a few minutes, at the literal maximum output of a $5k Krell integrated, and I did not find any easily detectable distortions as I would with most dynamic speakers.

Some of these strengths were unparalleled even compared to two pairs of $90,000 speakers I’ve heard, the Dynaudio Evidences and Focal Grande Utopias. Then again, they don’t share the same weaknesses either, but just making a point.

Once I was bitten by ‘stats, I located my local Quad dealer. Unfortunately, they no longer sell their ESL’s, because the market is being driven by HT. I was disappointed, but at least I heard a lot of their other offerings, such as the 22Ls, BWs, SFs, etc.

It is IMHO, that to do MLs right, you ought to shoot for the Summits. The Vistas and Vantages exhibited a rather easily detectable mid-bass suckout (which I must imagine is due to integration issues, x-over, something). The Summits are not remotely close to having the same issue, imo. Yes, they msrp at 11k, but a good deal can be found, with patience. I am like hifihoney, I don’t think I will ever buy a new-in-box high end product. I was next in line for a used pair off the ‘gon that sold for 5.2k. Missed on that, still found a great deal shortly after. I’ve never heard any older line of ML’s.

Essentially due to this mid-bass suckout (real issue with linearity), at that price point (Vistas), I could find myself either getting top notch bookshelves+sub, or perhaps a used pair of floorstanders from BW, Dynaudio, Revel, Monitor Audio. (I particularly enjoyed Confidence and Contours of Dynaudio).

It must be said that my enjoyment from my speakers is surely related to the fact that I listen to at least 99% acoustical music: classical and jazz. These speakers aren’t for everybody. If I am ever lucky to put them in their own dedicated 2 channel room, I can guarantee you that I am not buying ‘stats as replacement mains for the HT.

Hope this helps shape your own viewpoint, best of luck.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
I think Josten provides a pretty balanced input above. The electrostatics are fussy but the midrange they produce is really excellent. When coupled with traditional bass drivers they can produce a uniquely wonderful sound.

I've never owned any and most of the ones I've heard both at dealer showrooms and in private listening rooms have been poorly set up and didn't sound as good as traditional domes and cones. Most of them have had some serious room acoustic issues. If you can get them right and in the right room they are glorious. But, apparently, that isn't always an easy thing to do.

If you want straighforward and simple, electrostatics aren't for you. If you are an experimenter with the time and will to set things up correctly, they may well be.
 
sleepysurf

sleepysurf

Junior Audioholic
The last two posts are right on. To fully achieve what ML's (or any electrostatic, for that matter) can do, it takes time and patience, but IMHO, is worth the effort. I have ML Summits, and my "sweet spot" is two-people wide, but the off-axis sound is still quite good. My setup is 90% two-channel listening, but I just got the ML Motif center, and am upgrading my video end for home theater. Of note, the newer Summit and Vantage have ice-powered woofers, making them functionally bi-amped. So they are a lot more efficient than the older ML designs, and can even work well with lower powered tube amps. For lots of good advice (albeit biased :D), check out www.martinloganowners.com

As for the Vista's, from what I've read they are quite good, but require a higher output amp than the Summit or Vantage, and are best paired with a good sub.
 
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emorphien

emorphien

Audioholic General
I've always really enjoyed them, but I agree they are fussy.
 
G

Grantc79

Junior Audioholic
I just picked up a pair of ML Odyssey's and couldn't be happier with my purchase.

I'll break down the basics for ya as to why I chose Odyssey's.

1: I have the amp to drive them. Basically with ML's you either have a powered sub in the base or a non-powered sub in the base. If you have the non-powered you better have damn good amplification. If you have the powered version you just need pretty damn good amplification.

2: Odysseys sound very, very similar to Summits even at 5 years old. The ones I picked up were from a local ML dealer with a guy who traded in his Odysseys for Summits. I listened to both side by side and the difference between the two was minimal.

The price difference was 11,000 Summits vs. 2,500 delivered and installed Odysseys.

3: They don't go bad. The panels never break, the woofers rarely break. The only thing that can go bad on them is the amp really and that's not too common either. My Odysseys are 5 years old and I had no worries at all when I bought them.

4: From everything I have seen and heard static panel technology hasn't improved alot sound wise of the past 5 years. On a scale of 1 to 10 I'd put Summits at a 10 and my Odysseys at a solid 9.

However, they have made them dramatically smaller and better looking speakers to accomodate the low WAF of stat panels in general. My Odysseys are 6 feet tall, Summits are half that size and in general look better.

That said I prefer my gigantic speakers because I like big gigantic stuff.


Overall, I would seriously consider picking up a pair of Odysseys and spending another 4 grand on a very high quality amp or two (Parasound Halo is what I use and they are fantastic) and saving the rest of your cash.

That is assuming the wife will allow you to have two 6 foot static panels in the house.


As far as the sound goes, its second to none.

If you listen to jazz, orchestral music, female/male vocals, or acoustical performances you will not find a better speaker. I was literally going from room to room listening to ML Summits vs. the renowned B&W 802D here in New Orleans at Audio Resource and i prefered the ML's big time when it came to musical reproduction.

That is until you put in a movie, hard rock, techno, rap, or something that requires alot of "slam" then the panels get creamed.


Hope this helps.
 
B

bgrounds

Audioholic Intern
Thanks for all the replies... I should have mentioned that I have a PS Audio GCA MC amp that puts out 250w per channel.


Don't know if that makes any difference.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
In the 63 he etched delay lines in the electrostatic membrane, that looks like an archery target. These speakers have a perfect radiation pattern like a stone thrown into a clear pond.
Yes, these certainly did improve the off axis response as compared to standard ESL panels. However, it is still very inferior compared to the off axis response of a well designed standard driver system.

-Chris
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Their strengths, not in order, in my opinion (compared to only what I have heard):
-IMO, unparalled transparency
-Unparalled midrange transients
-Unparalled low-level dynamics
-Unparalled “decay”(improper term?) You know, the death of a struck piano note, or plucked guitar note into death, ppp, pianississimo (I guess this is part of previous point)
-Unparalled vocal reproduction, generally strong with acoustical music in general.
I am not sure what is unparalled about these issues. Every one of these aspects can be matched by high quality modern dynamic and/or planar drivers, though, to be fair, this is limited more to a relatively low number of such systems.

-Chris
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I am not sure what is unparalled about these issues. Every one of these aspects can be matched by high quality modern dynamic and/or planar drivers, though, to be fair, this is limited more to a relatively low number of such systems.

-Chris
Chris,

Im not sure either. Sorry about my spelling, caught it too late to edit. I did type "unparalleled" correctly once, at least. Sheesh.

You did note "compared to what I have heard"?

What I definitely have not heard is your DIY room or Linkwitz Orion's (spelling is correct?), etc. Nor those older, outdated, ugly BWs that you once mentioned. Some believe that NHTs and Revels are actually more neutral than BWs best. (Me? I'd be happy with any of them, Im sure!).

I don't know. Do you think it is possible to show me some graphs that might explain why I might either be imagining or hallucinating? Perhaps... that these electrostats are so bad at certain things, that it makes their strengths overwhelmingly prominent? Perhaps, its just the different rooms? Because I can only swear by what I have heard. I should also say that a good number of speakers warranted multiple revisits.

The speaker choice was not easy, mind you. The low level detail really just barely tipped me over the edge. I love to hear the decay of "dying notes" into silence. I just didn't hear the same thing, to the same degree, with any other speaker, regardless of cost. This perceived quality leads me to believe that I can hear more of the qualities of the room where the live recording was created, with its inherent harmonic additions (or even just studio-affected reverb).

People have said its because that the panel is so light in comparison to most cones. The midrange freq's can stop/start on a dime. Is this marketing hoopla, Chris? The line source for the Summits is .00005 of an inch thick. I don't know its weight, but i think the company might have claimed its lighter than the air its moving. (Is that true for all drivers, or at least maybe just for mid-range drivers?)

Thanks for all the replies... I should have mentioned that I have a PS Audio GCA MC amp that puts out 250w per channel.


Don't know if that makes any difference.
bgrounds, it wouldn't make that much difference to me. Id simply get the best speaker you can, regardless of what your amp is. I would find out if that amp can "double-down" into lower impedances. IIRC the Summits dip to 0.7 ohm, and the Vistas/Vantages at 1.0 ohm (all at 20khz I believe).

Little things that are nice about the newer line (or at least the Summits), are the 25 and 50hz bass level controls, and the spike implementation is pretty clever. I have the spikes out for the rears, and hidden for the front feet, to obtain a more vertical positioning of the panel. GL, and tell us what you do or where you lean!
 
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