Towers in lieu of sub?

[ParadigmDawg]

Dear Greg,
You had it right the first time. However I'm happily mad, so there is no need to worry! Enjoy your nice system.
All the Best, Mark.

Thanks man. I am uncertain I agree with your theory on subs and I dont understand why your studio has no acoustic treatment but what the heck...it looks awesome and you probably know what you are doing

 

[TLS Guy]

Acoustic treatment

Thanks man. I am uncertain I agree with your theory on subs and I dont understand why your studio has no acoustic treatment but what the heck...it looks awesome and you probably know what you are doing

Dear Greg,
There is no need for acoustic treatment for the following resaons.

I had the luxury of setting the room dimensions, therefore setting off troublesome resonances is minimized.

Transmission lines are very different in how they reproduce bass to other speakers. Although a pipe and obviously resonant, the resonance is tightly controlled and broader than closed box or reflex. The drivers are therefore more uniformly augmented over a larger range of the last octave. Good lines don't advertise their bass, it just appears when the program calls for it, and it is very robust. Also lines have large ports. They are organ pipes of a specialized type, and the output from the ports is prodigious, without turbulence. Like an organ pipe, they exhibit the acoustic phenomenon of encircling, by which the room is evenly filled.

I don't know if you have ever noticed how well a pipe organ fills a large space so evenly. Electric instruments do not. There is huge fall off in sound pressure as you get further from the sound source. If you get a chance to hear a good pipe organ, walk around the space and conform for yourself what I'm talking about.

The floor is carpeted, and the two 10 inch woofers in each enclosure are fed slightly different signals from different amps. This helps minimize floor reflections. The carpet is wool which has superior dampening properties to other materials.

I'm absolutely obsessional about getting the midband ruler smooth in my designs. Until the design and R & D have that bit right, construction is on hold. If your source is silky smooth there is no harshness to iron out.

As far as subs goes, as long as the LFE signal is preserved in a way it does not matter by what the signal is reproduced. However when trying to make the very best speaker system you know how, I think there are advantages to the whole audio spectrum being produced by the main left and right speakers. This way phase and time problems are minimized.

I hope this answers your curiosity.
All the Best, Mark.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Dear Greg,
There is no need for acoustic treatment for the following resaons.

I had the luxury of setting the room dimensions, therefore setting off troublesome resonances is minimized.

Transmission lines are very different in how they reproduce bass to other speakers. Although a pipe and obviously resonant, the resonance is tightly controlled and broader than closed box or reflex. The drivers are therefore more uniformly augmented over a larger range of the last octave. Good lines don't advertise their bass, it just appears when the program calls for it, and it is very robust. Also lines have large ports. They are organ pipes of a specialized type, and the output from the ports is prodigious, without turbulence. Like an organ pipe, they exhibit the acoustic phenomenon of encircling, by which the room is evenly filled.

I don't know if you have ever noticed how well a pipe organ fills a large space so evenly. Electric instruments do not. There is huge fall off in sound pressure as you get further from the sound source. If you get a chance to hear a good pipe organ, walk around the space and conform for yourself what I'm talking about.

The floor is carpeted, and the two 10 inch woofers in each enclosure are fed slightly different signals from different amps. This helps minimize floor reflections. The carpet is wool which has superior dampening properties to other materials.

I'm absolutely obsessional about getting the midband ruler smooth in my designs. Until the design and R & D have that bit right, construction is on hold. If your source is silky smooth there is no harshness to iron out.

As far as subs goes, as long as the LFE signal is preserved in a way it does not matter by what the signal is reproduced. However when trying to make the very best speaker system you know how, I think there are advantages to the whole audio spectrum being produced by the main left and right speakers. This way phase and time problems are minimized.

I hope this answers your curiosity.
All the Best, Mark.

I will file this in my "things I know but dont need to" box

Thanks!

 

[agarwalro]

The problem with subs is that they are a slight of hand, and only seem to defy the laws of nature. Honestly they really don't and can't. Usually the trick is to build a box that is too small for the driver. Without extensive bass Eq built into the amp, they actually would not go that low. The penalty is huge distortion, especially if the small enclosure is ported.

Absolutely on the money. But, as long a the distortion is below human perseption, it will not matter. The low frequency thresholds are much higher, so we can get away with it.

Two good channels beats five or seven lousy channels hands down.

Agree on this.

I don't know if you have ever noticed how well a pipe organ fills a large space so evenly. Electric instruments do not. There is huge fall off in sound pressure as you get further from the sound source. If you get a chance to hear a good pipe organ, walk around the space and conform for yourself what I'm talking about.

At lower frequencies it is more difficult to locate the source. The pipe organ's lower notes fall well in the frequency range of where we should not be able to locate the source.

This is also the premise for being able to seperate the LFE from the main tracks yet reproduce them as if it was full range signal coming from all channels.

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

Hey TLC, thanks for the thread hijack

Your studio looks pretty cool (despite that I am quite certain it would frighten most of the females of the species away) but I'm not interested in A. building my own speakers or B. your thought process of building your own speakers zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


don't mean to be a ****, just looking for good (aka realistic) audio advice

 

[zumbo]

$899.95
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ATK1F2.2
$299.99
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=NHT10&variation=SPE

$1199.94

There is your $1200 system. The sub will not match, but my $3200 speaker system doesn't match.

 

[TLS Guy]

LF distortion and other matters

I was not suggesting you build your own speakers. The bottom line advice I gave was, that if musical fidelity is your primary consideration, then put all your speaker budget into the best two channel speakers you can afford, and put off the rest as funds permit. I think if you take that approach you won't regret it.

If your are at all dexterous and were not hopeless in physics and math class, you might well find the hobby of speaker building a lot of fun. If you get good at it you will save bundles of money.

As regards bass localization I agree completely. However a pipe organ has a huge frequency spectrum and a massive HF output, but it still evenly fills the space, and huge spaces at that.

In terms of bass distortion, I agree the ear is a.lot less sensitive in this area. If that were not so listening to the majority of subs would be excruciating. However for those who have heard a reproduced clean articulate bass it is a revelation.

 

[jostenmeat]

Hey pdxmonkeyboy,

I don't think he was trying to hijack as much as help in his own individual and knowledgable way. He was asking good questions. Some people are music first, some are HT first. You never said, or if you did, I missed it.

Anyways, if you are HT first like many persons, you will want a sub. The LFE .1 channel contains information that is not given to the mains, even if they are set as full-range. Ok, so that's out of the way.

You asked for some "master file" on cheaper speakers. Try this one:
***Official HTIB Alternatives Thread***
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=809777

gl man. sorry about the tooth.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Hey pdxmonkeyboy,

I don't think he was trying to hijack as much as help in his own individual and knowledgable way. He was asking good questions. Some people are music first, some are HT first. You never said, or if you did, I missed it.

Anyways, if you are HT first like many persons, you will want a sub. The LFE .1 channel contains information that is not given to the mains, even if they are set as full-range. Ok, so that's out of the way.

You asked for some "master file" on cheaper speakers. Try this one:
***Official HTIB Alternatives Thread***
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=809777

gl man. sorry about the tooth.

I would guess by lookng at TLS zillion dollar audio set-up and his 37" display, that he is into audio more than movies

 

[rungriot]

TLS - i took a look at the pics you posted of and ... they're awesome! you have an amazing set-up and clearly take your audio/video passion to the extreme! thanks for sharing

 

[garbage pale kid]

if you go with towers i would use them for surround bacc also it kind of makes up for the no sub

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks

You are welcome.
I call it my magic carpet. It takes me to wonderful spaces, including opera houses.

 

[3db]

I was eating some walnuts and reading your posts.... OUCH!! WTF!!!

A short trip to the bathroom reveled that my speaker budget just went down $500 as it looks like I am going to need a new crown on my back right molar .

I think I'm almost at the point of giving up and buying a bose system. I wanted to stay under $1,200 for a system but from what I read, you don't get much for that. The other side of the coin is that my HT (aka the living room, LOL) configuration does not lend itself to good speaker placements and I have a 1yo boy who already "customized" the tweeters on my existing book shelve speakers.

Is there some master list of "cheap" speakers somewhere?

For 1200, you can get a pair of PSB T65s and save up for the sub. They won't replace a sub but their bass response is good enough to buy you some time. They also image so well that you swear there was a center channel present. I have the smaller T45s and I kept checking my setup to see if I had the senter turned on while listening to music. They are definately worth an audition.

http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/Image-Series/Image-T65-Tower

 

[TLS Guy]

Go for it!

If it suits your taste and budget, go for it. A good two channel system is a good way to start. It can be a very good way to stay as well, if your room is less than optimal for multichannel audio.

I don't really study the bottom end market I'm afraid. However if you are handy and would like to consider some kits, I would have some recommendations.