Opinions Wanted - My Amp Quandary

Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Adam. My MPS-1 hums and I have had two chassis and they were both the same. If you get info back from them that the hum should not be there please let me know and I will contact them as well.
adk, I heard back from Lonnie this morning (took over a week, but he's been out of the office). He says that the hum is probably caused by me having the amp plugged into my power console and that the hum should go away if I plug the amp directly into the wall. I'll try that later tonight when I get home, but thought that I'd let you know. If it goes away, then I'll need to ask him about surge protection because I'd be nervous to have it plugged directly into a regular outlet.
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
adk, I heard back from Lonnie this morning (took over a week, but he's been out of the office). He says that the hum is probably caused by me having the amp plugged into my power console and that the hum should go away if I plug the amp directly into the wall. I'll try that later tonight when I get home, but thought that I'd let you know. If it goes away, then I'll need to ask him about surge protection because I'd be nervous to have it plugged directly into a regular outlet.
I was under the impression that you never plug an amp into surge protection. I have always plugged mine directly into the outlets.
 
avaserfi

avaserfi

Audioholic Ninja
adk, I heard back from Lonnie this morning (took over a week, but he's been out of the office). He says that the hum is probably caused by me having the amp plugged into my power console and that the hum should go away if I plug the amp directly into the wall. I'll try that later tonight when I get home, but thought that I'd let you know. If it goes away, then I'll need to ask him about surge protection because I'd be nervous to have it plugged directly into a regular outlet.
I was under the impression that you never plug an amp into surge protection. I have always plugged mine directly into the outlets.
Greg is partially right about plugging amps into surge protection units.While you can plug an amp into a surge protection unit it generally isn't advised as most units like this limit themselves to outputting 15 amps (the Belkin falls into this catagory) the IPS will draw for more than that at various times easily and while I can't remember the IPS max draw I do know that the MPS can peak around 32 amps so limiting to 15 really limits what it can do. Also, Emotiva says their amps have internal circuitry to protect against surges so there is no real reason to use a surge protector with it anyways so have no worries about plugging it into the wall.

Let us know how it goes.
 
adk highlander

adk highlander

Sith Lord
I have mine plugged directly into a dedicated 20amp circuit. I was also told to not use a power conditioner or a surge protector for the reasons that avaserfi listed out.

I have called and left a message for him to talk about "the hum".
 
GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
Greg is partially right about plugging amps into surge protection units.While you can plug an amp into a surge protection unit it generally isn't advised as most units like this limit themselves to outputting 15 amps (the Belkin falls into this catagory) the IPS will draw for more than that at various times easily and while I can't remember the IPS max draw I do know that the MPS can peak around 32 amps so limiting to 15 really limits what it can do. Also, Emotiva says their amps have internal circuitry to protect against surges so there is no real reason to use a surge protector with it anyways so have no worries about plugging it into the wall.

Let us know how it goes.
This is good info, I didn't know that... I guess I should plug it directly into the wall. But now I'm going to need more outlets for all the crap I have.
 
avaserfi

avaserfi

Audioholic Ninja
This is good info, I didn't know that... I guess I should plug it directly into the wall. But now I'm going to need more outlets for all the crap I have.
Just as important as having more outlets is having enough power going through those outlets. If you have everything (display, sources, amp, processor, etc...) on the same circuit you are still going to be limiting how much power the amp can draw just in a different way.

While I know it isn't possible for everyone it would be ideal if you could have at least one separate circuit. For example when my dad was putting together his HT room I made him run another separate 20amp circuit just on the off chance he was going to run an amp! In the end it is a bit of work/money depending if you do it yourself, but if you are going to be spending a grand on an amp why not take full advantage of its power?
 
Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
Help me with the electrical theory here. Won't the circuit continue to provide all the power that the equipment draws until the breaker trips? If the MPS-1 tries to draw 32 amps on a 15 amp circuit, it will trip. If it hasn't tripped, the MPS hasn't tried to draw more than 15 amps. In fact, the circuit with all other equipment hasn't been asked for more than 15 amps.

I'm not aware of any "soft clipping" in a household electrical circuit and don't see how it will limit current to an amp without tripping the breaker. Either it will give the amp all the power it asks for or shut down when the amp asks for too much. To my way of thinking, if you haven't tripped the breaker, your system is getting all the current it requires. Am I wrong?
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
To my way of thinking, if you haven't tripped the breaker, your system is getting all the current it requires. Am I wrong?
Sure sounds reasonable to me. I'm not about to claim that the current reading on my power console is precise or fast acting, but it hasn't gone above about 2.5 amps - and that's with all of my equipment on and running (RPA-1, IPS-1, receiver, SVS Ultra, TV, and DVD player).
 
avaserfi

avaserfi

Audioholic Ninja
Well there are a few things that come into play with a situation like this. Amps have internal power supplies that they will also use to draw on for instantaneous peaks, but when it comes to sustained power output a sufficiently large circuit is required.

As far as I am told/understand when one has an amp that requires large amounts of power long term, lets say a dedicated 20 amp circuit. If you plug said amp into a 15 amp outlet rather than constantly tripping your breaker it will just not produce maximum output. As far as I understand this situation is similar to having a single outlet that is being used by multiple devices the amp will just not be able to produce maximum output. So having a display, receiver amp and your sources connected to a single circuit will just limit the amount of power the amp will draw and thus limit its output.

Hope this helps. I wish I could be more detailed, but honestly this is as far as my knowledge goes :eek:.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks, Andrew. I still don't understand why the amp wouldn't trip the breaker instead of "starving" itself, but no worries - I don't understand a lot of things.

How about my console only showing a current draw of 2.5 amps when I've got my system cranked? Would you still think that my amp is being limited (perhaps because my console isn't showing quick transients)? Perhaps I am just too sensitive and don't turn my system up loud enough.
 
avaserfi

avaserfi

Audioholic Ninja
I don't entirely understand why either, but I was informed by someone who I have found never speaks on a subject unless they actually know the answer.

As far as only having a draw of 2.5 amps something seems odd. When I have my LCD on my Belkin display shows 1.5. Plug in my computer and it jumps to 2.5 turning on my receiver makes it 3.0 and that is without any sound...Maybe my stuff is just hungrier than yours!

Now I need to learn more about electrical systems now that curiosity has been spurred. So much to learn so little time... :(
 
GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
I guess someone could ask the engineers at Emotiva and see what they have to say about their amps current draw.
 
R

rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
I'm another who has always plugged amps into the wall directly for a lot of the reasons already stated.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Help me with the electrical theory here. Won't the circuit continue to provide all the power that the equipment draws until the breaker trips? If the MPS-1 tries to draw 32 amps on a 15 amp circuit, it will trip. If it hasn't tripped, the MPS hasn't tried to draw more than 15 amps. In fact, the circuit with all other equipment hasn't been asked for more than 15 amps.

I'm not aware of any "soft clipping" in a household electrical circuit and don't see how it will limit current to an amp without tripping the breaker. Either it will give the amp all the power it asks for or shut down when the amp asks for too much. To my way of thinking, if you haven't tripped the breaker, your system is getting all the current
it requires. Am I wrong?
Let me make the following points.

1. Circuit breaker trip characteristics:

If your amp and other equipment draw a total current in excess of 15 amps, it may or may not trip the 15 amp circuit breaker. Circuit breakers could have either thermal, magnetic, or thermo magnetic tripping characteristics. In general, magnetic tripping occurs at several times over the rated current in order to allow for transformer inrush (if you turn on a 200WX2 or higher power amp that has a large power supply in it, your lights will dim for a split second due to transformer inrush currents) currents, motor start up currents and other forms of instantaneous peak current conditions. Thermo trips are based on overcurrents that sustain for a period of time because the trip element, e.g. a heater element such as a bi-metal strip reacts to the heat generated by the current so it is dependent not only on the magnitude of the current but also the duration.

2. Limitations of a 15A circuit

In general a 15A circuit is limited mainly by the wire size, typically 14 ga. The more current you draw and the longer run the wire is from the breaker panel, the more voltage drop you will get at the load (your amp). You can search and find a voltage drop table that tells you how many volts/ft drop you can expect from a particular type/make of 14 ga copper wire. If you want to calculate it, voltage drop=Current (in amps) X impedance/ft of the cable in ohms X the length of the cable. As explain in 1), a 15A circuit can deliver much higher than 15A without tripping the breaker as long as the duration for the overload is short. On the other hand, if you amp try to draw say 50A for 10 milliseconds, the breaker will not trip but the voltage drop during that 30 millisecond could be quite high, say 40 volts, then you end up with 80 volts at the amp and that's what limit the current hence power draw by your amp.

3) Display only shows 2.5A

It is possible that your display is not capable of indicating peak instantaneous currents that last only micro or milliseconds. Assuming a typical power factor of 0.7, 2.5AX120X0.7=210W. And further assume that the amp has an overall efficiency of 50%, the amp will output 210WX0.5=110W. If you amp draws 2.5A from the outlet on a continuous basis, it should be playing very loud. For example, 90 dB/W/M speakers will yield 84 dB (free field condition, could be much higher/louder in room) from 2 meters way with only 1W, or 93 dB with only 8 watts. So do not expect to see currents that approach 15A on continuous basis but only on instantaneous basis. You may see it that high in pure direct mode when your amp cannot get help from the sub and has to provide the high instantaneous current demand when that bass drum hits or those explosions in movies.

I should also mention that it also depends on whether the display measures/indicates R.M.S., average, or peak values.
 
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G

Gov

Senior Audioholic
FWIW,

My LPA-1 was measured in my home at 8 amps at 0db on my THX pre-amp with a redbook cd. That was with barely anything else on, on that circuit. Then I tried it with a bunch of lights on, two TV's and a treadmill. I was able to get it to 11.5 amps.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
3) Display only shows 2.5A

It is possible that your display is not capable of indicating peak instantaneous currents that last only micro or milliseconds. Assuming a typical power factor of 0.7, 2.5AX120X0.7=210W. And further assume that the amp has an overall efficiency of 50%, the amp will output 210WX0.5=110W. If you amp draws 2.5A from the outlet on a continuous basis, it should be playing very loud. For example, 90 dB/W/M speakers will yield 84 dB (free field condition, could be much higher/louder in room) from 2 meters way with only 1W, or 93 dB with only 8 watts. So do not expect to see currents that approach 15A on continuous basis but only on instantaneous basis. You may see it that high in pure direct mode when your amp cannot get help from the sub and has to provide the high instantaneous current demand when that bass drum hits or those explosions in movies.

I should also mention that it also depends on whether the display measures/indicates R.M.S., average, or peak values.
Thanks, Peng. I appreciate the input, and I'm right there with you. I was just trying to give some reference for the whole 15A circuit tripping - in that it seems unlikely with my equipment. I figure that my power console doesn't show quick transients, so I know that 2.5A isn't the peak. However, it does show higher current draws (ballparking around 5-7 amps) when the amps first kick on, so it is capturing the inrush current at least partially. Also, the 2.5A is with everything on (receiver, TV, DVD player, and amps)...so I'm not actually trying to go deaf. :)
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
My LPA-1 was measured in my home at 8 amps at 0db on my THX pre-amp with a redbook cd. That was with barely anything else on, on that circuit.
Is that a 120V circuit? So, that's 960W, correct? That just doesn't seem right to me (quite possibly because I'm calculating it wrong). Were you able to grill a steak on top of that bad boy?
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Well, I finally got around to plugging the amp directly into the wall outlet instead of into the power console. The hum is, as far as I can tell, identical. Time to contact Lonnie again.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Well, I finally got around to plugging the amp directly into the wall outlet instead of into the power console. The hum is, as far as I can tell, identical. Time to contact Lonnie again.
All amps hum unless it does not have a power transformer in it. If it bothers you even from 2 meters away then you have enough reason to complain and ask for an exhange or refund. It does not always has to do with how expensive the amp is, my cheap Adcom GFA555 is quieter than amps that cost >$5,000.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Is that a 120V circuit? So, that's 960W, correct? That just doesn't seem right to me (quite possibly because I'm calculating it wrong). Were you able to grill a steak on top of that bad boy?
Adam, let me try to rationalize this for you. Firstly, people tend not to bother distinguishing VA and Watt for simplicity sake. In reality VA=voltageXCurrent, i.e. VoltsXAmps. In electrical engineering term we refer to this product, VoltsXAmps as VA, not watt. You can in fact find this term in some receiver or amp specifications if you look at the power consumption figures. VA equals watts only for purely resistive loads when the phase angle between the voltage and current vector (more correctly, phasor) is zero. That is they are in phase. For reactive loads, Watts=VoltsXAmpsXPower factor where Power factor is less than 1 unless the voltage and currents are in phase. The more reactive the load is, the larger the phase angle between volt and amp and the lower the resultant power factor. Secondly, you have to consider efficiency, I am not sure if the LPA-1 is a class AB amp. If it is, then its efficiency could be around 50% or lower. So let's say Gov's display indicates peak values of 8 amps, and assuming the waveform is sinusoidal (mostly likely not), the rms value will be 8/1.414=5.66A, further assume the power factor is 0.8, then Power draw from the 120V side=120X5.66X0.8=543 Watts. Finally if we assume the amp's efficiency is 50%, then Output power=Input powerXefficiency=272 watts. That is quite believable consider that he said he had the volume at 0 dB, especially if his listening position is far enough (say 10 ft or more) from the speakers.
 

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