Towers in lieu of sub?

[pdxmonkeyboy]

As I suspect most beginning HT junkies, I have spent the last week or so eating in front of the internet and filling notebooks full of tidbits of info and model numbers, etc. I am building my HT around a nice TV and decent receiver and thought that a nice sub would be my first piece of quality audio gear and I could use it with my "back of van" 5.0 set up.

After listening to a friend cheap sub the other day ($80 Yamaha or some nonsense) it got me thinking that perhaps instead of a sub I should invest in a decent pair of towers for most of my bass? I was looking at the axiom m50's which have twin 6.5" woofers. I know they won't give me the "thunder" but I'm starting to winder is I really need to hear the lowest of the lows...

The other issue I have is that I live in an old NW bungalow so my HT room has a doorway in the middle of the "short" wall and the long wall has a 10' wide opening to the dinning room. From what I have been reading, this is definitely not the best set-up for bass.

so many choices......

 

[agarwalro]

I know they won't give me the "thunder" but I'm starting to winder is I really need to hear the lowest of the lows...

You don't know bass untill you have felt it . In action/ effects heavy movies, good LFE playback can make a huge difference in the experience.

What's your budget?

IMHO, in most cases a well selected 2.1 (bookshelf + sub) setup will be better than a 2.0 (floorstanding) setup in the same price range.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I don't need a sub. On the other hand, very few towers go as deep as my Def Tech BP10Bs (at least not at a reasonable price. I am sure that plenty of ultra-expensive ones do.)

 

[evilkat]

When i was building my system, I got the Axioms 60s first and the sub later. Before I got the sub, I thought all I needed were the Axioms because they sounded incredible (keep in mind that I was going from my 2.1 computer speaker setup to these babies!). The bass supplied by the towers were much tighter and sounded way better than the tiny sub I had before (I think the 60 goes down all the way to 35Hz). I thought things just couldn't get better than this....until my sub arrived

After hooking up the sub, the towers felt anemic compared to what I got with the sub. Now there is actually an 'impact' when the bass starts to rumble and you get a more engaging sound environment. That and the walls started to vibrate when the bass got too deep

Point is, unless u've heard good bass, you probably won't miss it if u have good towers. On the other hand, a lot of people complain that Axioms sound too 'bright' and trebely, so maybe you will want the bass to kill some of the brightness. When I first had the speakers, I did feel they were 'bright' initially, but once my ears broke in, I find that the speakers are fine the way they are and instead of 'bright' i hear 'clarity'

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

well, after hearing that the axioms are bright for the 50th time I think I am going to move on from them. I like a really "clear" sounding speaker but I never really liked really bright sounding speakers. The just don't sound "well rounded" to me.

So, I guess the qwest for a decent center channel and towers continues....ugghh.

 

[mtrycrafts]

As I suspect most beginning HT junkies, I have spent the last week or so eating in front of the internet and filling notebooks full of tidbits of info and model numbers, etc. I am building my HT around a nice TV and decent receiver and thought that a nice sub would be my first piece of quality audio gear and I could use it with my "back of van" 5.0 set up.

After listening to a friend cheap sub the other day ($80 Yamaha or some nonsense) it got me thinking that perhaps instead of a sub I should invest in a decent pair of towers for most of my bass? I was looking at the axiom m50's which have twin 6.5" woofers. I know they won't give me the "thunder" but I'm starting to winder is I really need to hear the lowest of the lows...

The other issue I have is that I live in an old NW bungalow so my HT room has a doorway in the middle of the "short" wall and the long wall has a 10' wide opening to the dinning room. From what I have been reading, this is definitely not the best set-up for bass.

so many choices......

Subs are designed for great low frequency reproduction and is movable for better room response. Tower is a fixed place speaker. Don't base your decision on an $80 sub you listened to. That is not a sub, just the name.
If you want good bass, you need a good sub, period.

 

[3db]

well, after hearing that the axioms are bright for the 50th time I think I am going to move on from them. I like a really "clear" sounding speaker but I never really liked really bright sounding speakers. The just don't sound "well rounded" to me.

So, I guess the qwest for a decent center channel and towers continues....ugghh.

get a decent pair of towers, sub, surrounds, and then center channel. I good set of towers will image properly and will cast the dialogue dead center if its meant to be there in the film

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Yep; start out with the mains, spend some money here as they are the most important piece of your set-up. Towers or bookshelves are fine; if you are using a sub latter it really doesnt matter that much and it is likely that you can get better books than towers at the same price-point. Next get a sub; you cant skimp here what-so-ever. You have to get a sub that will pressurize your entire room (bang for your buck subs are SVS, HSU, Axiom) use whatever you have in your bedroom closet for surrounds(you can get good ones way down the road) use the phantom setting until you can afford a center.

 

[highfihoney]

Unless your going to spend a fat greasy wad of cash its hard to find towers with great bass response for movies,buy a sub.

 

[evilkat]

I didn't mean to put you off Axioms by saying they're bright. It's just that compared to other speakers, I think that's the first thing you'll notice. But honestly, I think people make far too much out of it. It really does sound a hell of a lot clearer than some of the other speakers I've heard...even the smallest detail of sound is captured. But I suppose this is the subjective part of choosing your speakers.

BTW, don't forget about your center channel. Around 50-60% of your movie's sound comes through that, so you want to make sure you get a decent center channel. On the other hand if listening to 2 channel music is more important to you than movie watching, then I suppose u can skimp on the center.

 

[fmw]

Home theaters are meant to be used with subwoofers and for a lot of good reasons. The most important one is movie LFE. There aren't many affordable speaker systems that will go low enough loud enough to produce movie LFE that shakes the room. They will do quite well for music - even the full range of a a pipe organ. But they don't seem to be able to shake the room with movie LFE.

I had a pair of speakers once that would handle it but each tower had 2 12" woofers and a 12" passive radiator for a total of 6 12" radiators. My single 12" subwoofer shakes the room just as well as those monsters did in a much smaller and less expensive package. The reason is that the subs are designed to handle LFE.

It isn't hard to integrate the subwoofer into the mix of speakers for stereo music listening. You can make things pretty transparent if you adjust things carefully. And, of course, you can change the adjustmets as you might like over time. Presently I use a pair of very small 2 way towers with 6" mid woofers but they are backed up with a 12" subwoofer and they handle stereo music very nicely. They are quite lean in the bass alone but they sound like terrific full range speakers when the sub is integrated into the mix.

Get a subwoofer to go with whichever speakers you choose.

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

I was eating some walnuts and reading your posts.... OUCH!! WTF!!!

A short trip to the bathroom reveled that my speaker budget just went down $500 as it looks like I am going to need a new crown on my back right molar .

I think I'm almost at the point of giving up and buying a bose system. I wanted to stay under $1,200 for a system but from what I read, you don't get much for that. The other side of the coin is that my HT (aka the living room, LOL) configuration does not lend itself to good speaker placements and I have a 1yo boy who already "customized" the tweeters on my existing book shelve speakers.

Is there some master list of "cheap" speakers somewhere?

 

[ParadigmDawg]

I was eating some walnuts and reading your posts.... OUCH!! WTF!!!

A short trip to the bathroom reveled that my speaker budget just went down $500 as it looks like I am going to need a new crown on my back right molar .

I think I'm almost at the point of giving up and buying a bose system. I wanted to stay under $1,200 for a system but from what I read, you don't get much for that. The other side of the coin is that my HT (aka the living room, LOL) configuration does not lend itself to good speaker placements and I have a 1yo boy who already "customized" the tweeters on my existing book shelve speakers.

Is there some master list of "cheap" speakers somewhere?

A Bose is gonna cost you more than that

The point of buying things overtime is to slowly build a system as money allows. Another good option is to look into AV123 and SVS package systems.

 

[agarwalro]

I was eating some walnuts and reading your posts.... OUCH!! WTF!!!

A short trip to the bathroom reveled that my speaker budget just went down $500 as it looks like I am going to need a new crown on my back right molar .

Sucks when life gets in the way of fun. I think for now just get a good set of bookshelf speakers and with time add a good sub.

If you must get 2.1 in $500, look into the AV123 x-ls bookshelf speakers and x-series sub. $165 and $199 +shipping respectively.

 

[evilkat]

I was eating some walnuts and reading your posts.... OUCH!! WTF!!!

A short trip to the bathroom reveled that my speaker budget just went down $500 as it looks like I am going to need a new crown on my back right molar .

I think I'm almost at the point of giving up and buying a bose system. I wanted to stay under $1,200 for a system but from what I read, you don't get much for that. The other side of the coin is that my HT (aka the living room, LOL) configuration does not lend itself to good speaker placements and I have a 1yo boy who already "customized" the tweeters on my existing book shelve speakers.

Is there some master list of "cheap" speakers somewhere?

Sorry to hear that. Listen, for whatever price you pay for the bose speakers, you are bound to find better speakers for the same price. Check out the guides at Audiholics here: http://www.audioholics.com/buying-guides/system-buying-guides/the-1000-bare-bones-system/equipment-product-recommendations

That's a bare bones system for 1K. If you look at the 3K system, you will find that an Axiom Audio Epic Grand Master 5.0 speaker system & a Hsu Research
STF-2 sub will put you right around the 1.3K mark. Since you went down by $500 you might look at the bare bones system.

 

[TLS Guy]

Don't give up

Don't get discouraged. First get your priorities right.

Do you want your system to be a good music system that plays movies now and again?

Or conversely do you mainly want to watch movies and or play games and listen to music now and again?

If it is the latter go and buy the best two channel speakers your budget will allow after careful auditioning. If they have a reasonable bass response the movies will sound fine. Shake the floor no. You can add the rest as funds permit.

If the answer is the former your budget will only allow a compromised multi channel system.

The reason that the subs shake the floor is that the Dolby system has a built in 20db boost for effects like explosions. The speakers have to be tough enough to not self destruct. This 20db boost is only present at the subwoofer output.

Now I will make a surprising admission. I hate subs. I listen to mainly music and watch operas rather than movies. Subs have very poor bass articulation, very evident on good pipe organ recordings were rapid pedal passages are a blur.

The problem with subs is that they are a slight of hand, and only seem to defy the laws of nature. Honestly they really don't and can't. Usually the trick is to build a box that is too small for the driver. Without extensive bass Eq built into the amp, they actually would not go that low. The penalty is huge distortion, especially if the small enclosure is ported. Ported enclosures respond poorly to having their bass extended electronically. Big ported subs are another matter. The worst solutions tend to be the coupled cavity subs especially the third and fourth order variety, were the bass phase shifts, time smears and distortion are horrendous.

My solution has been unique and I know of no commercial design like it. I have built large transmission line speakers that extend down to the 20 Hz range. F3 IS 27 Hz. There is lots of output to 20 Hz, and excellent room coupling. I have added the LFE channel to the system electronically. I know of no subs that have anywhere near the impact of these. They also have an accurate non boomy articulate bass. But then I did not try to bend the physical laws which govern us. I worked with them.

Here is the picture.

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/2424008#127077317

There are other features not found in commercial designs also, such as active feed forward correction of the step response errors.

So I would go with what suits your life style and budget. There is time to add revise and extend over the years.

One last thought. Two good channels beats five or seven lousy channels hands down.

 

[evilkat]

Don't get discouraged. First get your priorities right.

Do you want your system to be a good music system that plays movies now and again?

Or conversely do you mainly want to watch movies and or play games and listen to music now and again?

If it is the latter go and buy the best two channel speakers your budget will allow after careful auditioning. If they have a reasonable bass response the movies will sound fine. Shake the floor no. You can add the rest as funds permit.

If the answer is the former your budget will only allow a compromised multi channel system.

The reason that the subs shake the floor is that the Dolby system has a built in 20db boost for effects like explosions. The speakers have to be tough enough to not self destruct. This 20db boost is only present at the subwoofer output.

Now I will make a surprising admission. I hate subs. I listen to mainly music and watch operas rather than movies. Subs have very poor bass articulation, very evident on good pipe organ recordings were rapid pedal passages are a blur.

The problem with subs is that they are a slight of hand, and only seem to defy the laws of nature. Honestly they really don't and can't. Usually the trick is to build a box that is too small for the driver. Without extensive bass Eq built into the amp, they actually would not go that low. The penalty is huge distortion, especially if the small enclosure is ported. Ported enclosures respond poorly to having their bass extended electronically. Big ported subs are another matter. The worst solutions tend to be the coupled cavity subs especially the third and fourth order variety, were the bass phase shifts, time smears and distortion are horrendous.

My solution has been unique and I know of no commercial design like it. I have built large transmission line speakers that extend down to the 20 Hz range. F3 IS 27 Hz. There is lots of output to 20 Hz, and excellent room coupling. I have added the LFE channel to the system electronically. I know of no subs that have anywhere near the impact of these. They also have an accurate non boomy articulate bass. But then I did not try to bend the physical laws which govern us. I worked with them.

Here is the picture.

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/2424008#127077317

There are other features not found in commercial designs also, such as active feed forward correction of the step response errors.

So I would go with what suits your life style and budget. There is time to add revise and extend over the years.

One last thought. Two good channels beats five or seven lousy channels hands down.

Wow, that's a heck of a studio!

 

[ParadigmDawg]

I was about to say that TLS is out of his mind but I looked at his pictures and I am not going to say a thing!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Here is the picture.

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/2424008#127077317

Two good channels beats five or seven lousy channels hands down.

I wish I could build speakers like that.

I also think that you don't need a separate subwoofer if your tower speakers can produce true full range sounds.

My BP7000SCs' bass level is set @ 50%, and the walls literally shake from the adjacent rooms. It's cool at first and great for demonstrations, but I sure don't want the walls to shake too often.

To pdxmonkeyboy:

The Axiom M50 V2 35.5" tall Towers for $780/pr are pretty good. 39Hz-22kHz +/-3dB pretty good.
But what if you could get a pair of DefTech BP10B 42" tall Towers for $800/pr? They are 20Hz-20kHz +/-6dB. They won't shake your walls, but they will produce very good quality bass down to 20Hz @ -6dB. Isn't that all you really need?

 

[TLS Guy]

You are not far off

I was about to say that TLS is out of his mind but I looked at his pictures and I am not going to say a thing!

Dear Greg,
You had it right the first time. However I'm happily mad, so there is no need to worry! Enjoy your nice system.
All the Best, Mark.