Audiophilia and the Playstation 1

[fmw]

I thought you might get a kick out of the latest hot idea from the religious audiophile crowd. The notion now is to use a Sony Playstation 1 as a CD player. Some feel it outperforms units costing $1000's of dollars. Could be. It's probably really simple and simplicity is often a good thing. In order to make it sound right, however, it requires a 1 week warm up time.

I have a PS1. I didn't even realize it played CD's so I dusted it off and, amazingly, it does. Unfortunately the output is so weak it requires me to really crank up the gain to get to a normal listening level. I think it might need a tube phono preamp to get it really going. Also dealing with a game controller instead of a remote and the lack of a digital display makes it less than fun to operate but it does work. Sadly, it wouldn't play combo SACD's but it took all the standard Red Book discs without complaining.

Some people have posted mods ranging from adding an IEC connector for high end power cords to replacing the interconnects with silver wires to better power supplies. This may be your chance to get a good price for that old PS1 you might have laying around.

How does it sound? Well it sounds like a CD player to me. Does it really outperform units costing $1000's? Got me. I have no clue. Does it sound better after cooking for a week? Got me again. I don't intend to buy a second unit to conduct a level matched listening test to find out. I assume nobody else has either. We'll just have to assume that anticipation is the key to truly enjoying the PS1 as a CD player.

 

[Haoleb]

This has been around for a few years now, You must have the earlier model with the RCA jacks on the back. SCPH1001 or something is the model number IIRC. And no, it wont play sacd's that thing was before their time.

Regarding how it sounds, Well i dont know. I dont care if it does sound as good as a 1k cdp. For starters, its ugly. And I really dont want some cheaply made video game thing as my cd player. Secondly, the remote. or lack thereof. Thirdly, I already have a cd player that plays cds just as good as any 1k cdp and no desire to replace it with some pos playstation. And i think most other people feel the same way as well!

 

[j_garcia]

This is not the "latest" thing, this has been around for years and it is total bunk. Seth=L already has a thread on this in the Steam Vent I believe.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I have never believed that there is any sonic difference between CD players, so long as they work properly. Sounding "as good as a $1000 CDP" does not seem like much of an accomplishment to me, as a $50 DVD player can do that. (The only exception I can think of is portables, and then only because the signal has to pass through the headphone jack/amp.)

 

[jostenmeat]

I have never believed that there is any sonic difference between CD players, so long as they work properly. Sounding "as good as a $1000 CDP" does not seem like much of an accomplishment to me, as a $50 DVD player can do that. (The only exception I can think of is portables, and then only because the signal has to pass through the headphone jack/amp.)

I cannot possibly disagree any more.

Have you swapped a 1k player in your existing system with your dvd player? I have. The difference is ridiculous man. *shaking head*. I know that you think paying past 1k for speakers is already not worth it, but I scratch my head at this kind of statement. Then again, some speakers are perhaps not deserving of a good source.

I presently think the choice of cdp is more important for sq than the choices of pre/pro and amp combined. TIMES TWO. It has a HUGE effect.

This kind of statement leads me to believe you have never A/B listened. Either that, or your speakers suck, or your ears suck, or both.

I originally did not intend to put cdp into my original budget. In fact, I originally did not want to believe that it IS important as it is. I was already spending enough money...

But, I know its a common perception. One long time audiophile who "held my hand" during my initial parts of the auditioning voyage thought the same thing after I strongly recommended an $800 cdp for his BW 804s. He totally balked. I replied that if he lived nearby, I would let him borrow my player, and that I would absolutely guarantee it would only be a matter of time before he upgraded. He is presently using a Denon universal player. That was my last player too. My new cdp makes my Denon sound like Roseanne Barr. Loaded with sibilance, and very poor midrange separation.

I would say the investment into the cdp is the very next bang for buck investment after the speakers themselves, ok, perhaps outside of treatments. After both the speakers and source, the other investments offer marginal improvements in comparison. But, the source is huge. I do not have engineering degrees, I could not tell you why, but it is entirely key, imo.

When I sprung for my player, the improvements were NOT subtle, nor single-faceted. We are talking numerous and easily discernable improvements. Im not talking golden ear crap here, I'll repeat: EASILY discernable improvements.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Nice rant, but I don't believe a word of it. I would have no problem using a $50 DVD player as the source in a system costing many thousands of $. (With almost all of the money going into speakers.)

 

[GlocksRock]

Nice rant, but I don't believe a word of it. I would have no problem using a $50 DVD player as the source in a system costing many thousands of $. (With almost all of the money going into speakers.)

Especially if you are using a digital output.

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Does "warming up" a PS1 still involve a broken ankle, Mountain Dew™, Doritos™, and playing The Legend Of The Dragoon everyday until 4am? (or Final Fantasy VII if you're so inclined).

 

[jostenmeat]

Especially if you are using a digital output.

yes, if you have an outboard DAC. Otherwise, my $800 player blows away either the processing/conversion of my NAD pre-pro, or something else, by using the RCAs.

A multi-thousand system without either great source, or great DAC, is a poorly thought out investment, imo.

Everyone here gushes over amp and receivers, and things with power, yet the source is so rarely ever touched upon.

I had no idea what a POS my Denon universal player was. No clue. It sounds awful.

With the double digit dealers I worked with, I also originally balked at their pricier source recommendations. Shoot, I was listening to some Dynaudio's with some source hooked up to a 5k component, only for its DAC. I was indeed shaking my head at the time. Though, the sound was amazing.

Joe, of course you would have no problem using the $50 player. You already think going past 1k for a pair of speakers is unwise.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Joe, of course you would have no problem using the $50 player. You already think going past 1k for a pair of speakers is unwise.

You are missing the point. Even if I were going to go very, very far past the 1k point for speakers, I would still not believe that an expensive CDP would give any benefit SQ wise (I might spend more for build quality, convenience features, longevity, and/or looks.) A DAC either decodes the signal or it doesn't. If it doesn't, the result is failure, not mediocre sound. Degrees of performance between all and nothing are characteristic of analog playback, not digital.

 

[Haoleb]

so are you saying that the sonic signatures of certain products that make them what they are is everybody just having the placebo effect? I dont think that you can disagree that a 50 dollar dvd player wont play dvd's as good as a 1k dvd player, So why would you think that cd players would be any different The kind of people who buy 1k cd players will almost always be using the onboard DAC. Not piping digital into their reciever to decode.

 

[jostenmeat]

You are missing the point. Even if I were going to go very, very far past the 1k point for speakers, I would still not believe that an expensive CDP would give any benefit SQ wise (I might spend more for build quality, convenience features, longevity, and/or looks.) A DAC either decodes the signal or it doesn't. If it doesn't, the result is failure, not mediocre sound. Degrees of performance between all and nothing are characteristic of analog playback, not digital.

I am not missing any point.

You say such-and-such, but coming from someone who blatantly believes purchasing speakers past the 1k mark as being unintelligent, or something, makes your statement rather moot, to me. But, whatever, this point is totally not at all worth arguing about.

What I would love to know is you have ever A/B auditioned a universal dvd player vs an excellent cdp.

I would love to know if you stood by your opinions after just trying.

You are not the only one who thinks the same way. I thought as you did too just a half year ago. Of course, I never mis-informed the masses before trying. Now, I know.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

so are you saying that the sonic signatures of certain products that make them what they are is everybody just having the placebo effect?

The information encoded on a CD is not intended to be "interpreted". It is a specific signal that can only be correctly decoded in one way. If two CDPs sound different (all else being the same, of course), then at least one of them is doing something wrong. Indeed, since it is only the expensive players that claim a "distinctive" sound, it is those that must be artificially coloring the signal.

 

[jostenmeat]

The information encoded on a CD is not intended to be "interpreted". It is a specific signal that can only be correctly decoded in one way. If two CDPs sound different (all else being the same, of course), then at least one of them is doing something wrong. Indeed, since it is only the expensive players that claim a "distinctive" sound, it is those that must be artificially coloring the signal.

So, you haven't actually ever once have done an A/B comparison?

btw, all of your products color the sound. The speakers as well as your speaker wire ("bendable tone controls").

By using your argument, a $50 dvd player will be as good as $1,000 dvd player. A dvd is not intended to be interpreted. Gee, funny how my Denon looks so much better than my brother's Sony, or my friend's JVC. And mine cost maybe $160. You sure bet I would love to have a 1k player, but audio sucks up all the money.

Its not simply a sonic signature. The improvements are very similar to the descriptions applied to better speakers. Greater transparency/clarity, reduction of sibilance, clearer representation of even subtle dynamics, etc.

When I hooked mine up, all of these improvements were immediately discernable within the first 10 seconds of playback. I very well remember. It was a Josquin mass for 6 voices. I just couldn't believe the improvement. Btw, it was the very last thing I've added to my rig.

If you came over, and I A/B swapped my dvd and cd players, I would love to see what you thought. Because you'd have to be pretty deaf not to hear. If you thought the tremendous improvements were only because of something they were doing wrong... well... strange philosophy indeed...

 

[Joe Schmoe]

So, you haven't actually ever once have done an A/B comparison?

Yes, I have heard expensive CD players. None of them even mildly impressed me, much less "blew me away". The alleged improvements you describe are all descriptions that apply to analog devices, and do not apply to DACs.

 

[jostenmeat]

Yes, I have heard expensive CD players. None of them even mildly impressed me, much less "blew me away". The alleged improvements you describe are all descriptions that apply to analog devices, and do not apply to DACs.

Heard or A/B compared? Since without A/B, you cannot possibly be able to judge.

So, which players with what setup? What speakers and other front-end components did you have when comparing which players?

If without A/B test, your comments are worthless, for obvious reasons.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Heard or A/B compared? Since without A/B, you cannot possibly be able to judge.

So, which players with what setup? What speakers and other front-end components did you have when comparing which players?

If without A/B test, your comments are worthless, for obvious reasons.

Not A/B in my own system, since that would entail bringing home an expensive CDP which I am not inclined to do. I compared an entry-level Sony DVD player and a top-of-the-line Classe (using analog outs, of course) in the same Classe/B&W system. I compared a friend's expensive Kyocera CD player and my Discman in the same Carver/Polk SDA system (when Kyocera was still making CDPs.) I compared that same Discman to a Nakamichi with (the same) headphones, since the Nak had a headphone output (unusual among CDPs.)
I could go on, but it should be obvious that I have done enough comparison to know.

 

[jostenmeat]

Not A/B in my own system, since that would entail bringing home an expensive CDP which I am not inclined to do. I compared an entry-level Sony DVD player and a top-of-the-line Classe (using analog outs, of course) in the same Classe/B&W system. I compared a friend's expensive Kyocera CD player and my Discman in the same Carver/Polk SDA system (when Kyocera was still making CDPs.) I compared that same Discman to a Nakamichi with (the same) headphones, since the Nak had a headphone output (unusual among CDPs.)
I could go on, but it should be obvious that I have done enough comparison to know.

Cool then.

We just happened to have very dissimilar experiences.

 

[UFObuster]

The information encoded on a CD is not intended to be "interpreted". It is a specific signal that can only be correctly decoded in one way. If two CDPs sound different (all else being the same, of course), then at least one of them is doing something wrong. Indeed, since it is only the expensive players that claim a "distinctive" sound, it is those that must be artificially coloring the signal.

OK, I'm learning here. I take it that a DAC converts the digitally read signal into an ANALOG source for redirection to the cdp. It seems that since this analog recreation of the signal is absolutely everthing to the sound quality, it makes sense that a player with inferior DACs would sound a lot worse than one with superior DACs....that is unless the converter is bypassed by passing the signal out over a digital connection for the pre/pro's processor to deal with.

If I understand this correctly, there would theoretically be a LOT of difference in a particular player's analog outputs compared with another....right? This does not take into account power sources and transformers.

 

[fmw]

If it helps I did do the blind listening tests several years ago with audiophile club. I don't remember all the units involved in the test but I remember my own two units - a $3500 CD player (beautiful machine) made by Audio Research and a $250 Harman Kardon CD player. They were indistiguishable in a level matched blind listening test. We got completely random responses from the group. I still have the HK player in my stereo system upstairs. I sold the Audio Research unit years ago.

I haven't done any serious blind testing lately with CD players but the DAC is a mature technology. It is trivial for a designer to put a DAC chip in a player and a few op amps and other components in an analog stage following the DAC. Yes it would be possible to screw up the analog stage design and have it perform terribly but I haven't encountered that myself and, apparently, neither have the audiophiles who like to listen to the PS1.