Harman Kardon Beats Denon

[Seth=L]

I hope they have a cheap campground nearby for the length we will be there I guess the bike will no do.
Or, better yet, if he has a mansion and can put up everyone.

You always find a way to loose me, be it by math or just general WTF?

 

[mtrycrafts]

You always find a way to loose me, be it by math or just general WTF?

Hey, everybody is bringing everything to the party. It will be a while before we can do everything, right? So, it might be a week or a month, so some will camp out Need a place to stay, right? Unless he can put all of us up LOL.
A month in a hotel gets expensive, camping is cheaper Besides, its been a while.
But, in the end, it is all hypothetical and a big joke.
Are you still with me?

 

[davo]

After browsing this thread and reflecting on other forums complaining of lack of forward movement in Denon's electronics design, it makes one wonder if Denon are going the way of Blose. (Over priced gear when cheaper brands sound better)

After all it is a commercial world out there!

Popularity breeds contempt.

 

[Seth=L]

After browsing this thread and reflecting on other forums complaining of lack of forward movement in Denon's electronics design, it makes one wonder if Denon are going the way of Blose. (Over priced gear when cheaper brands sound better)

After all it is a commercial world out there!

Popularity breeds contempt.

I had heard the PS in the Denons had not been changed in a few years and made them sound like crap, but I personally think it is a crock of crap, even if I do think that Denon is a tad overpriced for performance.

 

[Seth=L]

Hey, everybody is bringing everything to the party. It will be a while before we can do everything, right? So, it might be a week or a month, so some will camp out Need a place to stay, right? Unless he can put all of us up LOL.
A month in a hotel gets expensive, camping is cheaper Besides, its been a while.
But, in the end, it is all hypothetical and a big joke.
Are you still with me?

I feel you homie.

 

[mtrycrafts]

After browsing this thread and reflecting on other forums complaining of lack of forward movement in Denon's electronics design, .

What is the issue with Denon's designs?
Which brands sound better? How was that established?

 

[davo]

Which brands sound better?

I pretty sure this is the topic of this thread, you might have to re-read it.
Obviously it is subjective, but when the amps are comparable in sound but there is a huge difference in price, it makes you wonder does it not?

It seems Elvis1977 is wondering about it.

 

[PENG]

I pretty sure this is the topic of this thread, you might have to re-read it.
Obviously it is subjective, but when the amps are comparable in sound but there is a huge difference in price, it makes you wonder does it not?

It seems Elvis1977 is wondering about it.

With due respect, sure, if a HK unit sounds comparable or better than a particular Denon model and the Denon costs twice as much then it is fair to say the Denon seems overpriced, provided everything else (features, build quality, reliability etc.) are also equal. In this case, you already seem to recognize the first assumption is subjective, and yet you ask the question that really has no definitive answer unless the first assumption is proven or believed to be factual by yoursel. I guess that's why mtrycrafts asked those questions because of the way you asked yours, not that he has to re-read the post. He may rightfully tell me I am wrong and should not assume anything and mind my own business. I did so purely out of curiosity.

If you don't mind taking a quick look of the following:

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0665000FS10067540&catid=10551&logon=&langid=EN

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0665000FS10079397&catid=10551&logon=&langid=EN


http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10092846&catid=10551

You will see that here in Canada, HK costs more than comparable Denon models, at least in big box stores.

 

[davo]

With due respect, sure, if a HK unit sounds comparable or better than a particular Denon model and the Denon costs twice as much then it is fair to say the Denon seems overpriced, provided everything else (features, build quality, reliability etc.) are also equal. In this case, you already seem to recognize the first assumption is subjective, and yet you ask the question that really has no definitive answer unless the first assumption is proven or believed to be factual by yoursel. I guess that's why mtrycrafts asked those questions because of the way you asked yours, not that he has to re-read the post. He may rightfully tell me I am wrong and should not assume anything and mind my own business. I did so purely out of curiosity.

If you don't mind taking a quick look of the following:

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0665000FS10067540&catid=10551&logon=&langid=EN

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0665000FS10079397&catid=10551&logon=&langid=EN


http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10092846&catid=10551

You will see that here in Canada, HK costs more than comparable Denon models, at least in big box stores.

You've posted links to models that are not been discussed.(At least you posted links, I can't be bothered usually) A quick look on the net showed me a big price difference between HK 645 and Denon 4306.

Elvis1977 doesn't seem to be overly biased toward HK from the outset, even acknowledging Denons better build quality. He also used 14 gauge wires on both amps as well as same speaker setup. It wasn't untill he heard the HK that his opinion changed. Maybe the Denon was a dud, maybe the HK did sound better. For the price difference and his requirements it's not a hard choice.

Ultimately, I wasn't there to hear it. But it gives me something to think about when looking at new amps.

mtrycrafts asked some straight questions, I gave one a straight answer.


P.s. How do you factualize how an amp sounds?

 

[Seth=L]

Maybe the Denon was a dud, maybe the HK did sound better. For the price difference and his requirements it's not a hard choice.

Maybe the Denon PS sucks, it is possible and the more I think about it...it could be the cause of such a problem.

 

[davo]

Maybe the Denon PS sucks, it is possible and the more I think about it...it could be the cause of such a problem.

That could be possible, or maybe Denon thought "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

But that can only carry for so long.

 

[3db]

Quite right Peng

HK costs way more than Denon up here in Canada and I've noticed the same thing between Denon and Yamaha. Why anyone in Canada would buy a Denon with theire crazy markup over a Yamaha is beyond me.

Now onto the important issues? Who's bringing da beer???

 

[Seth=L]

That could be possible, or maybe Denon thought "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

But that can only carry for so long.

I used to really like Denon, I always thought they where more expensive for a reason, but I don't know how to take them now.

 

[Elvis1977]

Well, I didn' mean to cause this thread to be so long but it got alot of Audioholics attention for sure.

I got the 745 hk and hooked it up. This thing is unbelievable in sound. It sounds like the 645, but with a little more power. This is the best sounding receiver by far I have listened to. No Denon comes close. I decided to keep the 645 and return the 745 because there were just too many features I would not use. The 645 works just fine and has plenty of power. The only drawback to these recevers is that they both don't pass 1080p signals. Other than that the sound makes it beyond belief, especially logic 7.

Denon I think sounds better than Onkyo, BUT HK is the Champion of Sound!

 

[mike c]

Denon I think sounds better than Onkyo, BUT HK is the Champion of Sound!

seth is going to crucify you now.

 

[Seth=L]

Well, I didn' mean to cause this thread to be so long but it got alot of Audioholics attention for sure.

I got the 745 hk and hooked it up. This thing is unbelievable in sound. It sounds like the 645, but with a little more power. This is the best sounding receiver by far I have listened to. No Denon comes close. I decided to keep the 645 and return the 745 because there were just too many features I would not use. The 645 works just fine and has plenty of power. The only drawback to these recevers is that they both don't pass 1080p signals. Other than that the sound makes it beyond belief, especially logic 7.

Denon I think sounds better than Onkyo, BUT HK is the Champion of Sound!

I am glad you found audio nirvana, I still think you would benefit from upgrading your speakers to the next echelon. Good luck.

 

[Seth=L]

seth is going to crucify you now.

Well not crucify, just not agree. I would bet good money the Onkyo TX-SR805 sounds better than a Denon at the same price point and a little more just based on dynamic capability. The 905 would crush any Denon aside from the 5000 series is far as power is concerned, regardless of paper power ratings.

 

[Elvis1977]

I also hooked the Onkyo 805 to my JBL system and thought it was not bad, but was a bit too bright for me. I think the Denon 4306 was equal or slightly better than the Onkyo. But, the Onkyo 805 was half the price. $1000 vs $2000. This was a no brainer. Between these two go with the Onkyo. But, how could one shy away from Harman Kardon?

 

[Gasman]

I still think you would benefit from upgrading your speakers to the next echelon.

I highly agree with that, I have had some of the speakers that are being tested here.
Specifcally speaking on that sub, E250p.

Although it is a decent sub for its price, it does not even come close to even moderate high quality subs.

I have pics of the E250p that I took apart, I am sure I sent them to Buckeyefan.

I was curious though, why mid range AVRs are being used with budget speakers????

You would be better off getting mid range speakers with a budget AVR, that is where you will notice more sound difference.
(or rather, more quality sound difference)

Also, what room treatments are you using, and are you calibrating both the Denon and HK AVRs?
What settings are you using, any onboard EQs? That will clearly change the sound...
Etc....

 

[Seth=L]

I also hooked the Onkyo 805 to my JBL system and thought it was not bad, but was a bit too bright for me. I think the Denon 4306 was equal or slightly better than the Onkyo. But, the Onkyo 805 was half the price. $1000 vs $2000. This was a no brainer. Between these two go with the Onkyo. But, how could one shy away from Harman Kardon?

One could shy away from H/K because they have a high repair rate.

I am sorry, and I am not trying to step on your toes here, but I don't think that there should be much audible difference between the Onkyo, the Denon, or the H/K SQ wise while each is working within their limitations. Each receiver's limitations are quite high, at least reference levels of output for the most part. The biggest contender for power on that list is likely the Onkyo. It has the chunkiest amplifier in it of all the receivers mentioned.