Speakers costing $100's less

[watchdog]

Just an observation: I have now been lurking here learning about different brands for several weeks. Great information for people like me who've been out of touch with music for the last 20 years. One common theme I have heard over and over regarding 'many' speakers (i.e. Ascends, Axiom, NHT, PSB's, X-LS and others) in the sub $400 range is the statement below or an iteration of it.

"These speakers are a great deal and cost hundreds less than many others of comparable sound and will even hold their own against other elite brands costing over $1000."

Does anyone else find this ironical given so many are in this space with great performance. Maybe the statement should go like this.

"These $1500 speakers, albeit beautiful to look at, perform similar to 'many' sub $400 speakers."

Just my two cents worth.

 

[jonnythan]

Most of the brands you listed are internet-direct.

They are comparing their price to the retail price of traditional, store-purchased brands such as Paradigm, B&W, NHT, etc.

The internet-direct brands such as Ascend, Axiom, SVS, and AV123 are still very much the smaller players in the audio biz.

 

[Davemcc]

"These speakers are a great deal and cost hundreds less than many others of comparable sound and will even hold their own against other elite brands costing over $1000."

This is a good observation on the marketing of the cheaper speakers. But what I learned from the recent bookshelf speaker shootout is that the cheaper speakers including the internet direct brands, don't perform as well as their more expensive good brand name competition.

I'm sure there are some exceptional values out there, but as a rule, speakers are priced to be competitive with their close competition.

 

[Adam]

I'm sure there are some exceptional values out there, but as a rule, speakers are priced to be competitive with their close competition.

Excellent point, Dave. I would think this to be true especially in the "budget" speaker market where demand is high and competition is strong. Once we get into the $20k speaker market, who knows.

Also, I just wanted to make a remark on your stated location: Soviet Canuckistan. Hee, hee. Had to look that one up.

 

[MDS]

"These speakers are a great deal and cost hundreds less than many others of comparable sound and will even hold their own against other elite brands costing over $1000."

Does anyone else find this ironical given so many are in this space with great performance. Maybe the statement should go like this.

"These $1500 speakers, albeit beautiful to look at, perform similar to 'many' sub $400 speakers."

Nearly every review will have a statement to the effect that 'these speakers sound as good or better than others that cost 2-3 times as much'.

You will never see your second statement that goes in the opposite direction and says an expensive pair doesn't sound as good as others that cost 2-3 times less.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Start by finding a pair of price-no-object speakers that you love. Then find some that sound as good for half the price. Next, find a pair that sound as good as these for half the price. Continue this process until you end up with something as good as $50,000 speakers for under $100.

 

[rnatalli]

Regarding internet brands, I personally don't see huge differences between them and companies that do things the old-fashion way. Internet brands make good speakers, old-fashion corporates make good speakers. However, because of the introduction of internet brands, those old-timers probably had to find ways to lower their prices and take a smaller profit margin.

 

[j_garcia]

Internet direct don't have big advertising budgets, a ton of overhead, vast international distribution chains, "authorized dealers" or the like. If you took one of these companies and they started doing all that, all of a sudden the price of the speaker suddenly becomes similar to the ones that cost 2-3 times the price for similar performance...

 

[buzzy]

Internet direct don't have big advertising budgets, a ton of overhead, vast international distribution chains, "authorized dealers" or the like. If you took one of these companies and they started doing all that, all of a sudden the price of the speaker suddenly becomes similar to the ones that cost 2-3 times the price for similar performance...

That seems high.

ID companies also don't have economies of scale in R&D, purchasing, and manufacturing; and they have to handle all the sales and customer service themselves, a significant cost. So I doubt it's actually even 2x.

 

[jostenmeat]

"These speakers are a great deal and cost hundreds less than many others of comparable sound and will even hold their own against other elite brands costing over $1000."

Does anyone else find this ironical given so many are in this space with great performance. Maybe the statement should go like this.

"These $1500 speakers, albeit beautiful to look at, perform similar to 'many' sub $400 speakers."

Has it ever occurred to you that they say similar things about pricier speakers? That a 1k speakers sounds as good as another at twice the price. Or that a $2k speaker sounds like a $4k speaker, a $4k speaker sounds as good as an $8k speaker...

So, transitively, could you say a $400 speaker sounds as good as a $8,000 speaker? Or maybe:

"These $8,000 speakers, albeit beautiful to look at, perform similar to 'many' sub $400 speakers".

Why the heck not I guess.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Has it ever occurred to you that they say similar things about pricier speakers? That a 1k speakers sounds as good as another at twice the price. Or that a $2k speaker sounds like a $4k speaker, a $4k speaker sounds as good as an $8k speaker...

So, transitively, could you say a $400 speaker sounds as good as a $8,000 speaker? Or maybe:

"These $8,000 speakers, albeit beautiful to look at, perform similar to 'many' sub $400 speakers".

Why the heck not I guess.

Refer to post #6.

 

[3db]

That seems high.

ID companies also don't have economies of scale in R&D, purchasing, and manufacturing; and they have to handle all the sales and customer service themselves, a significant cost. So I doubt it's actually even 2x.

Why wouldn't ID companies have the same economies to scale in R&D? I might see purchasing and manufacturing but not R&D. And like the bookshelf speaker shootout pointed out, ya get what you pay for; the ID companies didn't fair all that well in this test.

 

[jostenmeat]

Refer to post #6.

yes, in so many words, very funny post! haha

 

[zumbo]

Start by finding a pair of price-no-object speakers that you love. Then find some that sound as good for half the price. Next, find a pair that sound as good as these for half the price. Continue this process until you end up with something as good as $50,000 speakers for under $100.

While this may look to be a funny post, it is very solid advice. Audition speakers out of your price range. Then, hunt for similar SQ in a lower price range. You will learn a lot, and you may stumble across the deal of the day.

 

[buzzy]

Why wouldn't ID companies have the same economies to scale in R&D?

They have to spread the cost over fewer speakers sold.

The main point though is to realize that while the ID approach reduces some costs, it has some new costs too.

As far as "you get what you pay for," that's hardly an iron law with speakers.

 

[watchdog]

How bout we introduce some ECON 101 Terms for speaker evaluation:

1) Economies of Scale: Big factories in China producing thousands of speakers every month under various brand names. "Any coincidence Swans look like Rockets and they are both able to offer their speakers for HALF of what they have been selling them for historically?" They can make them for a lot less give the scale and cost of labor than say a high quality speaker made in the U.K. or U.S.

2) Law of diminishing returns: Really does apply to speakers. Especially as you get older and your hearing is not as acute!! Rocket RS1000 =$1000/pair. Sonus=$10,000/pair. Do they really produce 10X's better sound quality?

 

[Joe Schmoe]

2) Law of diminishing returns: Really does apply to speakers. Especially as you get older and your hearing is not as acute!! Rocket RS1000 =$1000/pair. Sonus=$10,000/pair. Do they really produce 10X's better sound quality?

For me, the diminishing returns curve flattens to the point that it becomes effectively no returns above about $800-$1000/pr (MSRP). My Boston VR2s and my Def Tech BP10bs both cost in that range and are both excellent, as are many others in that price category. The more expensive speakers I have heard (including some a lot more expensive) don't impress me as enough better to justify the price, while those significantly less expensive always seem lacking in at least some areas.

 

[Soundman]

Why wouldn't ID companies have the same economies to scale in R&D? I might see purchasing and manufacturing but not R&D. And like the bookshelf speaker shootout pointed out, ya get what you pay for; the ID companies didn't fair all that well in this test.

I don't think I agree with this statement. One bookshelf shootout isn't enough to represent the entire ID industry. There were really just a handfull of ID's used in the shootout, so don't think that's a fair statement There are definitely some great deals out there for what you pay for. I also know that selecting a speaker can be so subjective anyway, that i think you just need to keep looking for that speaker that sounds great to you. You can't put a price on that special speaker you just love, ID or not.

Also, getting back to the ID debate, just for argument sake. Check out this deal: http://www.av123.com/products_category_brand.php?section=speakers&brand=3

This is a good example of deals that come up via ID companies. I have never gone to a dealer who has offered speakers of this quality for this price. But then again, as I hinted at above, value is so subjective.

 

[zumbo]

There is one thing that people need to notice. Someone claiming their $500 ID speakers are the way to go are comparing their $500 speakers to what? Certainly they didn't buy $500 speakers to replace a $1000 pair. It's probably more like they replaced a $100 pair. I would be blown away too.

Also, I don't put any stock in reviews of speakers. They all look like advertisements to me.

 

[jostenmeat]

For me, the diminishing returns curve flattens to the point that it becomes effectively no returns above about $800-$1000/pr (MSRP). My Boston VR2s and my Def Tech BP10bs both cost in that range and are both excellent, as are many others in that price category. The more expensive speakers I have heard (including some a lot more expensive) don't impress me as enough better to justify the price, while those significantly less expensive always seem lacking in at least some areas.

Strange. I found easily detectable improvements from 1k to 2k to 3k to 4k to 5k to 6k to 7k to 8k to 9k to 10k to 11k.

Examples, I A/B tested some Quad 22Ls, which made the TAS best of '06 list, and so I wanted to see if a "ravely reviewed/bang for the buck" type actually sounded better compared to a doubly priced B&W 703s. Just on the difference in detail alone is just pure night and day. From that same brand, the jump of, say, $1,500 to the 804s gave much, much superior bass fidelity, better detail in general, and a much more even timbral response throughout the range. Solo piano is a good test for that I find, since no other common instrument is nearly as timbrally even throughout such a large range. I could go on, whether Focal, Martin Logan, Dynaudio, etc. I should say that I have particular opinions regarding the strengths of different makers. For instance, I find that with Martin Logan, it is with their very best stuff that they actually hit the sweet spot. Otoh, some companies like PSB do not have enough time or experience to do their very best quite right. Although the Platinums (7k msrp? or something) are so good in so many ways, the port overhang is just a shame in my book, and ruins the otherwise fantastic speaker. I think their sweet spot is the Image line.

Easily discernable. I truly do think diminishing returns is a highly over-rated idea in audio. Its so over-blown imo, subjective as it may be. Then again, some people just don't hear very well, or perhaps listen to compressed pop that doesn't have much need for better stuff.

Though I have listened to two pairs of speakers at the 90k range, I didn't put them through the ringer because they were out of my price range anyways.

2) Law of diminishing returns: Really does apply to speakers. Especially as you get older and your hearing is not as acute!! Rocket RS1000 =$1000/pair. Sonus=$10,000/pair. Do they really produce 10X's better sound quality?

Regarding the Sonus 10k speakers, they must be the Cremonas? I would say yes, they produce a sound that is 10x better than almost any 1k speaker out there. I haven't heard the Rockets, but have heard numerous speakers in the 1k to 2k range. This stupid numbers game, blah blah blah.....(Is someone going to produce a graph for us regarding the "accuracy" of diminishing returns. Give me a break.) The Cremonas will melt you. Give them a listen. Bring your own speakers in, and do an A/B test, and post what you think. If you don't hear the worthy differences, then you are right, no need to spend more.