Gordon Brockhouse talks to Sunfire’s Bob Carver (AMPLIFIERS)

[Seth=L]

This is an old article, but all in all a very good read. I enjoyed reading it and learning a little about amplifiers, and "The Man" when it comes to amplifiers. I particularly liked this part...

Gordon: How audible are the differences between solid-state amplifiers?

Bob: What I’m going to say will fly in the face of what most people believe. I believe that you can take two solid-state amplifiers, and provided neither one is overloaded in any fashion, they’ll sound identical. That’s a big if. Amplifiers are overloaded in three basic ways. They’re overloaded in amplitude; they’ve overloaded in current; they’re overloaded in speed. It’s very easy to do this if you don’t have a big juicy amplifier. Obviously a little Radio Shack amplifier is not going to be able to touch a big Jeff Rowland or a Mark Levinson or a Sunfire amplifier. Provided the amplifier has flat frequency response and sufficiently low distortion, both of which are trivial these days, and provided there are no interface problems, the differences will always be the subtle differences associated with overload, either momentarily, like slew-rate limiting or clipping, or just running out of drive current.

I almost cried (happy crying)

Full article here

 

[mtrycrafts]

This is an old article, but all in all a very good read. I enjoyed reading it and learning a little about amplifiers, and "The Man" when it comes to amplifiers. I particularly liked this part...



I almost cried (happy crying)

Full article here

In essence, what have we, some of us been saying? When withing their design limits would certainly include no overloads, right?
And, the above is from a formidable person. He is not the only one but he is in the public domain with it

 

[davidtwotrees]

Thanks Seth.........good read. I liked the talk re: the True Sunfire Sub. I wonder how they rate around here?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You mean you love what Bob Carver was saying?
So you don't believe in using external amps in addition to the receiver's amps?
I mean if the receiver's amps is just as good as the external amps, right?

Yeah, amps don't have a sound of their own. But a lot of people still don't believe this. Audioholics Professional Review doesn't seem to believe this. A lot of people use external amps in addition to their receivers.

I don't believe external amps make a huge difference. But that doesn't stop me from owning 4 external 3-Channel amps. I don't believe bi-amping & tri-amping does anything either. But that doesn't stop me from doing it either. I guess as long as I realize it, it's okay, right?

 

[Seth=L]

You mean you love what Bob Carver was saying?
So you don't believe in using external amps in addition to the receiver's amps?
I mean if the receiver's amps is just as good as the external amps, right?

Yeah, amps don't have a sound of their own. But a lot of people still don't believe this. Audioholics Professional Review doesn't seem to believe this. A lot of people use external amps in addition to their receivers.

I don't believe external amps make a huge difference. But that doesn't stop me from owning 4 external 3-Channel amps. I don't believe bi-amping & tri-amping does anything either. But that doesn't stop me from doing it either. I guess as long as I realize it, it's okay, right?

You have to really read and think about what you have read. Bob Carver would not say a receiver's amplifier and a seperate amplifier are even remotely the same. He even states that it is a "big if", it all depends on the quality of the amp, it's power, dynamic ability. When an amplifier is overloaded (in any fashion) it begins to sound seperate from other amplifiers with the same principle design. Not everything is so black and white as you seem to assume about others.

 

[Seth=L]

Thanks Seth.........good read. I liked the talk re: the True Sunfire Sub. I wonder how they rate around here?

I had one, it sounds good for it's size, that is all.

 

[Seth=L]

In essence, what have we, some of us been saying? When withing their design limits would certainly include no overloads, right?
And, the above is from a formidable person. He is not the only one but he is in the public domain with it

This is why I posted. I figure it gives more credibility to the cause if you have one of the biggest names in audio ever basically come right out and say it, and this was back in 1996. That means that at least by 1996 amplifiers had reached the peak of neutrality in design.

 

[Haoleb]

I think the problem here is that the all amps sound the same camp think a reciever will sound the same as monoblocks or whatever. (operating within its limits of course ) If your comparing two comparable amps then yeah its not outrageous to say they will sound much alike. But when your talking a reciever or even a pro amp full of fans and crap vs a true high end amp then no.

It is outrageous however to say that amps dont have their own sound though in my mind. However small, amps do have their own sonic characterstics.

 

[fmw]

Making amps with flat frequency response curves and inaudible distortion was trivial 30 years ago. What he said has always been the case.

I sold my external amps and my pre-pro this year and replaced them with an inexpensive receiver. It did this for the convenience of having the whole system operable from a single remote control. Any changes in the sound of the system? Not even a little.

The entire high end audio industry is based on placebo driven hearing fantasies and always has been. TAS and Stereophile continue to spew nonsense and audiophiles encounter sonic "epiphanies" around every corner. After all these years, audiophiles refuse to understand and change. It's amazing that it has lasted this long.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I think the problem here is that the all amps sound the same camp think a reciever will sound the same as monoblocks or whatever. (operating within its limits of course ) If your comparing two comparable amps then yeah its not outrageous to say they will sound much alike. But when your talking a reciever or even a pro amp full of fans and crap vs a true high end amp then no.

It is outrageous however to say that amps dont have their own sound though in my mind. However small, amps do have their own sonic characterstics.

You are missing the point or resisting it
It matters not if it is a monoblock or a receiver when the other conditions are met, be it small amps, or huge ones. As long as you don't exceed design limits, and the other design goals are met, why would it be otherwise?

What you may be missing is that a smaller amp will not deliver enough power to a demanding load or customer who doesn't care about their hearing losses that high spl will cause So, if that amp is 10 watts, why would it not sound the same as a 1000 watt amp, when both are limited to 10 watts for the comparisons??

 

[mtrycrafts]

The entire high end audio industry is based on placebo driven hearing fantasies and always has been. .

While this is an audio board, we should remember that this also applies to the consumer marketplace in general be it water, or whatnots. People gobble up bottled what even when it is from the city water supply but with a designer name on it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

While this is an audio board, we should remember that this also applies to the consumer marketplace in general be it water, or whatnots. People gobble up bottled what even when it is from the city water supply but with a designer name on it.

What? Are you telling me that some bottled water products are directly from the city water supply? Seriously?

 

[avaserfi]

What? Are you telling me that some bottled water products are directly from the city water supply? Seriously?

The rules with bottled water are ridiculous if you really look into the situation you will find that some larger brands sell water that you could get out of your tap, sometimes worse. There are some regulations on what certain labels mean just like everything else that we consume, but without proper research you could very well be falling into a scam.

The link below explains the rules and regulations comparing bottled and tap water. The only time I could see justifying buying bottled water is if your tap water tastes like algae/dirt or is unsafe while the latter is rarely a problem the former can be very relevant. If you are going to buy bottled water do your research.

http://www.nrdc.org/water/drinking/nbw.asp

I guess thats the end of my off topic rant. Interesting read Seth . (my on topic remark)

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You have to really read and think about what you have read. Bob Carver would not say a receiver's amplifier and a seperate amplifier are even remotely the same. He even states that it is a "big if", it all depends on the quality of the amp, it's power, dynamic ability. When an amplifier is overloaded (in any fashion) it begins to sound seperate from other amplifiers with the same principle design. Not everything is so black and white as you seem to assume about others.

If I design or make external amps for a living, I would never say that they sound the same as receivers either. I would not gain anything from it. Everything coming out of my mouth would be very grey. I don't use a receiver. I use separate amps. So deep inside I probably think that my separate amps outperform the Denon 5805 or any receiver out there. I hope they do.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The rules with bottled water are ridiculous if you really look into the situation you will find that some larger brands sell water that you could get out of your tap, sometimes worse. There are some regulations on what certain labels mean just like everything else that we consume, but without proper research you could very well be falling into a scam... The only time I could see justifying buying bottled water is if your tap water tastes like algae/dirt or is unsafe...

You mean like outside the country?

I learn something new everyday. Thanks, man.

 

[Seth=L]

If I design or make external amps for a living, I would never say that they sound the same as receivers either. I would not gain anything from it. Everything coming out of my mouth would be very grey. I don't use a receiver. I use separate amps. So deep inside I probably think that my separate amps outperform the Denon 5805 or any receiver out there. I hope they do.

Your amplifiers should have more instantaneous power than the Denon 5000 series, I agree that they will sound vastly different when being pressed. But as mentioned, over and over again. Within design parameters (not just comfortable) the conditions must be ideal for the sound to be neutral. If I power speakers at a nominal wattage of 10 watts with a receiver the power could peak out to perhaps 100 watts from a lower frequency that occurs, suddenly the receiver is having some difficulty, but is no where near shut down or perhaps not even audibly clipping. The power amplifier ran in the same fashion can produce huge amounts of power with it's seemingly limitless headroom with its massive power supply, reservoir capacitors, and hefty output. The power amp doesn't bat an eye, it just laughs at the incoming signal, and says "is that all you got? Take this your greedy speaker". This is why separate amplifiers sound better. Class A transistor amplifiers, like the mono blocks from Halcro, can squash crap all day long and remain completely linear.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Your amplifiers should have more instantaneous power than the Denon 5000 series, I agree that they will sound vastly different when being pressed. But as mentioned, over and over again. Within design parameters (not just comfortable) the conditions must be ideal for the sound to be neutral. If I power speakers at a nominal wattage of 10 watts with a receiver the power could peak out to perhaps 100 watts from a lower frequency that occurs, suddenly the receiver is having some difficulty, but is no where near shut down or perhaps not even audibly clipping. The power amplifier ran in the same fashion can produce huge amounts of power with it's seemingly limitless headroom with its massive power supply, reservoir capacitors, and hefty output. The power amp doesn't bat an eye, it just laughs at the incoming signal, and says "is that all you got? Take this your greedy speaker". This is why separate amplifiers sound better. Class A transistor amplifiers, like the mono blocks from Halcro, can squash crap all day long and remain completely linear.

Yes! Thanks! See, I knew there was a good reason I have 4 amps. I just didn't know exactly why before.
I'm glad I didn't exactly wasted my money.

Now could you please give me a good reason for my bi-amp/tri-amping?
There has to be a good reason for them besides looking cool.

 

[Seth=L]

Now could you please give me a good reason for my bi-amp/tri-amping?
There has to be a good reason for them besides looking cool.

It may never really be necessary. Your home electrical circuits have their limits. In your situation it is like using steroids and it should be illegal.

 

[mtrycrafts]

? Seriously?

Yes, seriously. Some like coke and maybe pepsi recently admitted it and had a code, abbreviation on their bottled water, indicating standard domestic water supply, city water. This made the news not long ago, last few month perhaps?
Next time see if you can find codes on it someplace. It might be an abbreviation for community water supply, domestic water supply or something similarly trans-coded from the initials as that is all they use, not spelled out.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It may never really be necessary. Your home electrical circuits have their limits. In your situation it is like using steroids and it should be illegal.

You mean like having 15amp instead of 20amp circuits?
I notice some amplifiers require 20amp. Some like the Outlaw Audio 300wpc amplifier require two 15amp outlets. Why?