Receiver preamps

[mafiaahem]

Hello folks!

First would like to say, as a new member, hi to all!

Would like to introduce myself with a question. I am new to home theater stuff but trying to get my hands dirty and build one, setting up one piece at a time. Recently purchased a Denon 2930ci player; in the market now for a receiver. I am considering two options here: separates or a receiver. What do you folks suggest? Would separates be better or a good receiver with preamp outs which gives a flexibility of adding a power amplifier if I want to. I am leaning towards the latter and considering Denon AVR-4308ci. Suppose I buy it and later connect a power amplifier to the receiver preamp outs, how good, performance-wise, will the system be compared to a standalone and dedicated preamp/processor connected to a power amplifier? Has anyone tried this? Is the preamp out feature on these high-end receivers another marketing gimmick or they truly perform just as good as a dedicated preamp connected to a power amplifier?

I appreciate your response and experience.

Thank you!
Mafia...ahem...

 

[Johnd]

Hey mafia: welcome to the forum!

It depends on your needs and desires. I am adamant that today's higher end receivers have all the options one could possibly need (at least for today...until the next format arrives ), and that with a good system (speakers, source, power and connections), one would be hard-pressed to detect a difference in sq from like-priced separates. Period.

 

[avaserfi]

Welcome to the forums!

First off it helps if we know what kind of speakers you have to relate the receiver - pre/pro situation.

In general a pre/pro or using a receiver as a processor with an amp attatched is better than just using a receiver as a power source because it will give you more head room and allow you to play your speakers louder without distortion. Although, one thing to remember is that many people do not need amps to push their speakers (hence why I asked what speakers you have).

Lastly, using a dedicated processor vs a receiver as a processor with an amp should yield no sound quality differences.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Would separates be better or a good receiver with preamp outs which gives a flexibility of adding a power amplifier if I want to. I am leaning towards the latter and considering Denon AVR-4308ci. Suppose I buy it and later connect a power amplifier to the receiver preamp outs, how good, performance-wise, will the system be compared to a standalone and dedicated preamp/processor connected to a power amplifier? Has anyone tried this? Is the preamp out feature on these high-end receivers another marketing gimmick or they truly perform just as good as a dedicated preamp connected to a power amplifier?




Mafia...ahem...

This is my experience. I have a $1,500 Pioneer Elite Preamp/Processor (not a receiver w/ Preamp output) and a $800 Acurus RL-11 stereo preamp. Using the same speakers, I listened to 2-ch stereo music with each one. It was not a blinded-test. There was a huge difference. The sound from the Pioneer Pre-pro in DIRECT (PURE) STEREO MODE sounded "restrained". It sounded to me like the music was being "Held-Back" by something. It sounded "Closed" even when I cranked up the volume, since we know how important volume level is.

But the sound from the dedicated preamp was extremely "Open" even at lower volume.

Now this is just my experience with these two components.

According to The Audio Critic (on-line/magazine), as long as the components are basically free of distortion and have good specs, all amps, preamps, D/A Converters, and CD players should sound the same. However, PROCESSORS may sound differently.
In my case, the Pioneer Elite's processor sounded very differently (and negatively) than my Acurus---even in Direct Stereo Mode. Again, that is subjective, but I TRIED to be as objective as possible.

In my opinion, the sound from the Denon 4308 will sound as good as any separate amp/preamp. In other words, if I did not have any components at all and started fresh from scratch, I would just get the Denon 4308 without any separate amps.

But if you have any DOUBTS, why take the risk? If deep in your mind, you still wonder if separates sound even slightly better, why take the risk? For $3,000, you could get a GREAT pre-pro/amp. Why even bother with a receiver + amp?

Disclaimer: There is NOTHING wrong with getting a Receiver + serparate amps.
It's OKAY. REALY.

 

[fmw]

I switched from separates to receiver recently. The power amps weren't remote controlled so somebody had to turn them on and off manually. My wife wouldn't do it and just listened through the TV speakers. When I wanted to join in I had to fuss around with the system to reroute the sound through the sound system. By switching to a receiver I was able to automate the whole system so my wife just pushes one button and she's good to go. Another button turns it all off. Does it sound any different that the separates with 200 lbs. worth of power amps? Not to me. I can't imagine ever going back to all that complexity again. I'm amazed people who have normally sized listening rooms with normal 4 to 8 ohm speakers ever buy separates.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I switched from separates to receiver recently. The power amps weren't remote controlled so somebody had to turn them on and off manually. My wife wouldn't do it and just listened through the TV speakers. When I wanted to join in I had to fuss around with the system to reroute the sound through the sound system. By switching to a receiver I was able to automate the whole system so my wife just pushes one button and she's good to go. Another button turns it all off. Does it sound any different that the separates with 200 lbs. worth of power amps? Not to me. I can't imagine ever going back to all that complexity again. I'm amazed people who have normally sized listening rooms with normal 4 to 8 ohm speakers ever buy separates.

I agree. I would just buy the Denon 4308 and be VERY HAPPY about it. There is no need for separate amps on top of that already powerful receiver.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Hello folks!

First would like to say, as a new member, hi to all!

Would like to introduce myself with a question. I am new to home theater stuff but trying to get my hands dirty and build one, setting up one piece at a time. Recently purchased a Denon 2930ci player; in the market now for a receiver. I am considering two options here: separates or a receiver. What do you folks suggest? Would separates be better or a good receiver with preamp outs which gives a flexibility of adding a power amplifier if I want to. I am leaning towards the latter and considering Denon AVR-4308ci. Suppose I buy it and later connect a power amplifier to the receiver preamp outs, how good, performance-wise, will the system be compared to a standalone and dedicated preamp/processor connected to a power amplifier? Has anyone tried this? Is the preamp out feature on these high-end receivers another marketing gimmick or they truly perform just as good as a dedicated preamp connected to a power amplifier?

I appreciate your response and experience.

Thank you!
Mafia...ahem...

As has been suggested, speakers drive the power requirements along with your listening habits and distance from the speakers you sit.
But, mostly, as fmw indicated is the case.

 

[zumbo]

I use a Yamaha receiver as a pre-amp.

Saved a good bit of money, and got the connections/features I needed.

I use an Adcom multi-channel amp.

The power amps weren't remote controlled so somebody had to turn them on and off manually. My wife wouldn't do it and just listened through the TV speakers.

My amp is connected to the receiver via a 12v trigger. When you cut the receiver on, the amp comes on. Not a problem for me, or the wife.

 

[cfrizz]

I am in the opposite camp. I will always have separate amplification. The difference for the better it made over my Denon receiver was huge. I still debate whether I want to get a separate prepro, but I will never again go back to just using my receiver to power my speakers.

 

[Geno]

I've had separates in the past, but after re-joining this madness a few years ago, bought one of the big Denon receivers. If my life depended on it, I couldn't tell the difference in sound quality. I, too, subscribe to the notion that guy who writes "The Audio Critic" states: properly configured amplifiers, operated within their design limits, are sonically indistinguishable. That being said, if I could afford Krells, I'd get 'em, just because they're so dang bad.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've had separates in the past, but after re-joining this madness a few years ago, bought one of the big Denon receivers. If my life depended on it, I couldn't tell the difference in sound quality. I, too, subscribe to the notion that guy who writes "The Audio Critic" states: properly configured amplifiers, operated within their design limits, are sonically indistinguishable. That being said, if I could afford Krells, I'd get 'em, just because they're so dang bad.

What? No, no, no. How about those $24K stereo amps from Mark Levinson?
They are really bad to the bone.

 

[Seth=L]

Seperates have their fine points. Getting a 200 watt per channel amplifier with a pre/pro can yeild impressive results in high SPL situations. The dynamic capability of seperate power amplifiers is practical, but not for everyone. Most people don't need or want to drive their speakers to insane levels of output, aside from trying to impress others.

I would get just the receiver for now.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

How about just wait until they come out with a new pre-pro w/TrueHD/DTS-MA from NuForce or Outlaw Audio or Emotiva? Then get a matching 7-ch amp.
Then you will never have to ask yourself the question: "are separates really better?"

 

[mafiaahem]

Thanx for all the responses. After discussions with the folks at the audio center and checking out the systems, I decided to go ahead with Integra DTC-9.8 preamp/pro. With all the features the processor offers and the vibrant performance, it is priced at just $1600. This was too attractive for me to let it go.

Also being an engineer it was hard for me to accept that, performance-wise, it would not make a difference if the amplifier is integrated with the processor in one box (receiver). The audio consultant at the shop shared the same view. And this opinion supported by the low-priced feature-rich DTC9.8 drove me to purchase the preamp/pro.

Even if I buy a good power amp now, the total would still be less than what I would have otherwise paid for a Denon AVR-4806ci.

Thanx!
Mafia...ahem...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Thanx for all the responses. After discussions with the folks at the audio center and checking out the systems, I decided to go ahead with Integra DTC-9.8 preamp/pro. With all the features the processor offers and the vibrant performance, it is priced at just $1600. This was too attractive for me to let it go.

Also being an engineer it was hard for me to accept that, performance-wise, it would not make a difference if the amplifier is integrated with the processor in one box (receiver). The audio consultant at the shop shared the same view. And this opinion supported by the low-priced feature-rich DTC9.8 drove me to purchase the preamp/pro.

Even if I buy a good power amp now, the total would still be less than what I would have otherwise paid for a Denon AVR-4806ci.

Thanx!
Mafia...ahem...

Pre-pro + amp is a good choice. Although I would love to own the upcoming Denon 4308ci, NOT the 4306ci, going separate components is a good choice.
However, with the advent of HDMI 1.3, Dolby TrueHD, & DTS-HD MA, I would definitely wait for new pre-pros with these new features that are sure to come out very soon.

Edit: Not that the 4306ci is not any good. I think the 4306 is awesome. But it doesn't have those three new features.

 

[mafiaahem]

However, with the advent of HDMI 1.3, Dolby TrueHD, & DTS-HD MA, I would definitely wait for new pre-pros with these new features that are sure to come out very soon.

Yoohoo...Check out Integra DTC-9.8. It supports these.

Mafia...ahem...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yoohoo...Check out Integra DTC-9.8. It supports these.

Mafia...ahem...

Oops. I stand corrected.
Man, you got it made, then. The Integra DTC-9.8 looks great.
A dedicated pre-pro with all the new features!

So is Integra the premium brand of Onkyo?
They look very similar.

Too bad Integra doesn't have a 200 wpc x 7 amp!

 

[zumbo]

Thanx for all the responses. After discussions with the folks at the audio center and checking out the systems, I decided to go ahead with Integra DTC-9.8 preamp/pro. With all the features the processor offers and the vibrant performance, it is priced at just $1600. This was too attractive for me to let it go.

Also being an engineer it was hard for me to accept that, performance-wise, it would not make a difference if the amplifier is integrated with the processor in one box (receiver). The audio consultant at the shop shared the same view. And this opinion supported by the low-priced feature-rich DTC9.8 drove me to purchase the preamp/pro.

Even if I buy a good power amp now, the total would still be less than what I would have otherwise paid for a Denon AVR-4806ci.

Thanx!
Mafia...ahem...

Well now. That is a sweeeeeet price for a very nice piece of equipment. I luv it sooooooo much.

http://integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?m=DTC-9.8&class=Separates&p=f

Ceck-out the specs for the matching amp boys:
http://integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?m=DTA-9.4&class=Separates&p=s

HMMM! They give the distortion spec rated@1kHz. I bet this is how they get the doubling of power spec @4ohm as well. Impressive, none the less.

Audioholics review:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/processors/integra-dtc-9-4-dta-9-4-processor-and-amplifier/dtc-9-4-listening-tests-and-conclusion

 

[mafiaahem]

So is Integra the premium brand of Onkyo?
They look very similar.

Yes it is. What I read on other forums: it is the Lexus if Onkyo's a Toyota with one caveat - Lexus does not look like Toyota.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Also being an engineer it was hard for me to accept that, performance-wise, it would not make a difference if the amplifier is integrated with the processor in one box (receiver). The audio consultant at the shop shared the same view. ...

Interesting comment. While on the surface one might think this, but, not properly testing it one is just speculating on the outcome.
Why would the audio consultant tell you otherwise? You think his interest would be served by loosing out on a sale? Is he an unbiased observer???

I suppose if you went to a homeopathic shop, the consultant there would tell you that their products work as claimed, no? Or, a visit to a psychic? Or, any consumer marketplace, for that matter.

And, yes, comparing such a pre/pro and amp with a receiver is possible under bias controlled, level matched conditions.

You see, hearing is not like a caliper, precise, accurate and repeatable. It is a human sense and as such, it can be fooled so easily, just like the other senses. And, humans have a built in bias that is uncontrollable.